Portuguese Dragon Ball Tankoubon Edition *On Going* - Review

[rereboy]

What name inconsistencies are you referring to? So far its been pretty good.

[Rukura]

What name inconsistencies are you referring to? So far its been pretty good.

I don't know exactly which exactly he's refering to but, without wanting to step on his toes, I can point out the big ones. Personally, I feel that they've been really inconsistent in how they use multiple terms for both items, people and even events.

Let's look at the series' namesake. We have "Dragon Balls", "Bolas do Dragão" and "Bolas de Cristal". They're refered to, both in the japanese and english version as "Dragon Balls" everytime. I don't have a problem with them translating it to "Bolas do Dragão", but if they want to use the translated term they need to stick with it. Same applies to "Dragon Radar" and "Red Ribbon" (that was refered to as "Legião Vermelha" once or twice in the beginning of that arc).

"Kika". Seriously, fuck that one to all hell. The argument of "sounds like x if read incorrectly" was rendered invalid by Kai's dubtitles. Sadly, they were consistent with that one. But not accurate.

Ki. They decided to follow Viz in using "chi".....but then used Yamcha's proper "souKIdan". And, by that point, we had already had "KIkoho".

Kame-sen'nin is called either Kame-sen'nin, Muten Roshi or "Tartaruga Genial". This one is made just as awkward since the first two are used in the series....and they go ahead and throw in another title. I TOTALLY understand why they would ever include some of the dub-isms that they did (and I actually kinda approve of this specific one) but they had to pick between hardcore and casual fans instead of going back and forth, (possibly) "annoying" both.

There's also Son Goku and God. Everyone calls him Goku for the most part, but Bulma calls him "Son-kun". And Piccolo calls him "Son". Neither was reflected in this version. They could very easily kept "Son" for Piccolo...and if we have "Kami-sama" why not keep the suffix and have "Son-kun" for Bulma? They can very easily have included a disclaimer the first time it was used like they did we "Kika", for example.
And the big one there is that EVERYONE calls God "Kami-sama"....including Piccolo. Piccolo would NEVER refer to him with such a respectful honorific suffix.

And, for me, the worst out of them all...is "Saiyanjin". I have no problem with "Saiyan" being the standard, specially since most Saiyan name puns come from english words, so whatever. But they used, twice, the term "saiyaNjin". That right there is the perfect example of why they shouldn't try to please hardcore and casual readers...because they very easily mess up.

(At this point, after writting all that, I start to wonder how good it has actually been thus far...and I thought it decent, myself...)

[rereboy]

The alternative names don't bother me and I'm glad they decided to include so many variations (including the most correct ones obviously) instead of fixating on just one title, a name or a way of saying it. I would have preferred some notes explaining them further, but its pretty good as it is.
In fact, they should have done it even more, for example, regarding Kami. If they had done it regarding him, we would probably have Kami, Kami-sama, God and perhaps more. Because they fixated on Kami-sama, now we have even Piccolo calling him that, instead of just calling him Kami or God. So, if anything is wrong regarding this, is the fact that they actually should have done even more, IMO.

Sayianjins and Kika bother me of course. They are wrong. (But at least they explained in a note that Kika was named Chichi in the original). But these and Piccolo referring to Kami as Kami-sama are basically the only things really wrong in the translation.

Chi or Ki doesn't really bother me. Ki is basically just how to pronounce chi in japanese. And considering that Dragon Ball has its roots in chinese mythology, but its destined for a japanese audience, honestly any of them would be right, it just depends on how we look at it. They could have used Ki for consistency regarding the attacks, but whatever. Its minor.

And the honorifics are troublesome. I would drop them all. If they had done that, Piccolo wouldn't refer to Kami as Kami-sama, and the way that Bulma refers to Goku with the use of kun and his surname is so minor and japanese specific that it doesn't really matter if its "cut". So, if anything is wrong about that, is the fact that they didn't drop them all.

[dbboxkaifan]

What was the reason why they changed Chichi to Kika?

Don't tell me it's because it means ''piss''.

Chichi in Portuguese doesn't even sound like pii pii (pee pee), xixi does, or they they just went with the old PT dubname of Chichi?

[rereboy]

What was the reason why they changed Chichi to Kika?

Don't tell me it's because it means ''piss''.

Chichi in Portuguese doesn't even sound like pii pii (pee pee), xixi does, or they they just went with the old PT dubname of Chichi?

We don't know.

Probably because that was her Dub name AND because of the fact that her name does sound like piss in portuguese and sounds really dumb because of it ("chi chi" and "xi xi" are pronounced exactly the same way in Portuguese).

[Rukura]

But your arguement there is that most of those don't bother you. That's completely fine, but doesn't change the fact that they're still inconsistencies in the translation.
And if we stop to think about other possible readers, they might get confused as to why 3 or 4 different terms are being thrown around for the same thing/person in multiple languages.

Chi or Ki doesn't really bother me. Ki is basically just how to pronounce chi in japanese. And considering that Dragon Ball has its roots in chinese mythology, but its destined for a japanese audience, honestly any of them would be right, it just depends on how we look at it. They could have used Ki for consistency regarding the attacks, but whatever. Its minor.

I will take issue with that reasoning there, though. The concept of "Ki" does have it's origins in the chinese "chi", which can be said for a lot of things in the japanese language. But, the way it's used in japanese, it became a more broad concept and is more integrated with the language itself than the chinese "chi", to the point where "ki" is used in asking how one's feeling or even the weather. (If only there was a podcast that had talked about this in episode 236 ) So, while they are similiar, they're still different. And while the usage of "chi" wouldn't necessarily be wrong, it became "wrong" (or at least inconsistent) when they used the correct attack names that do use "ki".

As far honorifics, I agree. They would've been better ways to integrate what they're supposed to get across without having to use them.

[rereboy]

But the way "Ki" is used in Dragon Ball can be interpreted more closely as the chinese "Chi" than the more broad aspects like the weather or feeling well.

Within the series I don't think that there is definite "proof" that is being used as a more japanese concept or a chinese concept. Being a japanese manga doesn't automatically mean that is used more as a japanese concept than a chinese one, specially since the series is based on chinese mythology, and it doesn't change the fact that, as far as I know (I could be wrong about this), japanese pronounce "chi" as "ki", which makes matters worse.

So, in ends up being correct either way, IMO. The only difference is that Ki will be apparently more coherent since the attacks use the term "Ki".

To actually have a problem with either use of it though, will probably mean that we are looking at it way too hard, IMO.


Also, when I say it doesn't bother me, I'm considering the point of view of a newbie. I don't believe that a newbie will be confused because I think its fairly obvious that they are different ways of referring to something or someone.
When a newbie reads "Muten Roshi" and then "Tartaruga Genial" he or she will get that they are different ways of referring to that person. In fact, he or she will benefit from it because they will realize that are different way to refer him, and learn them, becoming more educated. Meaning, its more of a advantage than a disadvantage.
Of course, like I said, a few notes explaining things further wouldn't hurt at all and I would prefer that, but just this is already pretty good.

[Rukura]

But the way "Ki" is used in Dragon Ball can be interpreted more closely as the chinese "Chi" than the more broad aspects like the weather or feeling well.

The same kanji we see used as "ki", in the way of energy for attacks, is the same "ki" in "genki" refering to one's own condition and "tenki" (weather), to name a few examples. It's used a lot more as part of the language itself than you probably think, and that's where a lot of it deviates from that "chi".

Within the series I don't think that there is definite "proof" that is being used as a more japanese concept or a chinese concept. Being a japanese manga doesn't automatically mean that is used more as a japanese concept than a chinese one, specially since the series is based on chinese mythology, and it doesn't change the fact that, as far as I know, japanese pronounce "chi" as "ki", which makes matters worse.

The thing is that it is different from "chi". Even the character for each is different. It's a word that originated in chinese but became their own, used in many different ways. (Notice that there is a "chi" sound in japanese, so if it was the same they could say it the same)
Maybe this is looking at it too seriously, but I really feel something gets tossed aside when it shouldn't. The kanji used in japanese for "ki" is not the same used in chinese for "chi". This isn't a "Freeza vs Frieza", it's a "Kienzan vs Distruct-o-Disk". Get's the point across, but is not the thing.

When a newbie reads "Muten Roshi" and then "Tartaruga Genial" he or she will get that they are different ways of referring to that person. In fact, he or she will benefit from it because they will realize that are different way to refer him, and learn them, becoming more educated. Meaning, its more of a advantage than a disadvantage.
Of course, like I said, a few notes explaining things further wouldn't hurt at all and I would prefer that, but just this is already pretty good.

I see that, and I get that. But we can also look at it from another angle. "Tartaruga Genial" is not the best translation for "Kame-sen'nin". Certainly not any kind of adaptation of the title "Muten Roshi" either. So where are they being educated there? And I believe this is where your point could've been put to good use with a few notes here and there. But if we were going down the "educational" route, all them dubisms would have to be cast aside that same instance now wouldn't they?

[dbboxkaifan]

("chi chi" and "xi xi" are pronounced exactly the same way in Portuguese).

To be honest, ''chichi'' and ''xixi'' are pronounced differently, to me, because ''chichi'' ''chi'' and ''xixi'' ''xi'' (shi), odd how both are said the same way even though they're two different ways.

The new Portuguese orthographic agreement should've corrected this, but instead, they've just fudged up a lot of it.

[rereboy]

Well, I don't know enough about "chi" or "ki" to elaborate any further than what I said, and I already said that I could be wrong so I'll leave it at that .

As for "Tartaruga Genial", I think its a pretty good translation of Kame Sen'nin. Sen'nin is a hard concept to translate, it can mean immortal, transcendent, genie, mage, djinn, sage, hermit, etc, but translating it to Genius is a pretty good way of going about it, IMO. And Kame is turtle. So, "Tartaruga genial" being "turtle genius" is pretty good. As for Muten Roshi, its his name so there is no translation other than a literal romanization of the name.

I think that the alternative use of translations/adaptions are useful for educating the reader of their existence, and also making the reader aware of literal translations and adaptations, and their difference. Its a superficial knowledge without much explanations (this is where the notes would be useful, to explain this and further that knowledge) but its still a degree of knowledge that wouldn't be there otherwise, which is always nice. As for incorrect dub names, the problem is the dub name itself, not the use of alternative translations/adaptations.

To be honest, ''chichi'' and ''xixi'' are pronounced differently, to me, because ''chichi'' ''chi'' and ''xixi'' ''xi'' (shi), odd how both are said the same way even though they're two different ways.

The new Portuguese orthographic agreement should've corrected this, but instead, they've just fudged up a lot of it.

I don't see how. "Ch" has the same pronunciation as "x". For example, "chá" and "xá". Therefore, "chi" is read the same way as "xi" is read.

[Rukura]

Well, I don't know enough about "chi" or "ki" to elaborate any further than what I said, and I already said that I could be wrong so I'll leave it at that

And I had already agreed that it's not really wrong itself, the point was more about it being inconsistent or not with what they were doing

As for "Tartaruga Genial", I think its a pretty good translation of Kame Sen'nin. Sen'nin is a hard concept to translate, it can mean immortal, transcendent, genie, mage, djinn, sage, hermit, etc, but translating it to Genius is a pretty good way of going about it, IMO. And Kame is turtle. So, "Tartaruga genial" being "turtle genius" is pretty good. As for Muten Roshi, its his name so there is no translation other than a literal romanization of the name.

That's why I would've approved if they had stuff with that adaptation for that one specifically. It's like you said, an editor note with a little insight on it would've suficed. As far as Muten Roshi, from the way Herms wrote out the origin, I was kinda led to believe it was a title

Muten Roushi (Kame-sennin)
武/mu stands for all things martial, while 天/ten means “heaven” and 老師/roushi means an old master or teacher. For the name “Kame-sennin”, 亀/kame means “turtle”, while 仙人/sennin is a type of sage or saint in Japanese folklore. To quote the Encyclopedia Mythica: “The immortal spirit of a saint living in the mountains in Japanese mythology.

I think that the alternative use of translations/adaptions are useful for educating the reader of their existence, and also making the reader aware of literal translations and adaptations, and their difference. Its a superficial knowledge without much explanations (this is where the notes would be useful, to explain this and further that knowledge) but its still a degree of knowledge that wouldn't be there otherwise. As for incorrect dub names, the problem is the dub name itself, not the use of alternative translations/adaptations.

And I think they could've used that to their advantage a lot more, and still been able to keep one term and be a lot more consistent. The "Dragon Ball" issue was still unnecessary, though lol.

[jrdemr]

In my opinion, all dubisms should have been kept out of this edition - the dub's translation was just awful, I'd rather this edition of the manga had nothing to do with it - though I agree that it's far easier for people that grew accustomed to the dub to have the translation that they're used to.

And regarding the Chichi case, I agree with rereboy - "ch" and "x" frequently sound the same in portuguese, like in "xilofone" and "chato", so I get why they kept the dubism, though I believe that the majority of the people that buy this edition are already used to the japanese pronounciation of things, so it would be needless to keep that particular term.

What really bugs me is translating "Dragon Balls" as "Bolas de Dragão" (and switching between the original term, the literal translation and "bolas de cristal"). In here, they should have just kept "Dragon Balls", period. "Bolas de cristal" is an acceptable dubism for people that are used to the dub, but it always reminds me of fortunetellers. And "bolas de dragão"... well, I don't even need to explain what that reminds me of. It's an unimaginative and far too literal translation. If they really wanted to translate the term, maybe "Bolas do dragão" would be a little better (it still reminds me a bit of dragon testicles), but since the original uses an english word, they should have just kept it.

[alakazam^]

What name inconsistencies are you referring to? So far its been pretty good.

I was referring to all the switching back and forth between name variations. This is an official and professional translation and those "gimmicks" have no place here. Why should there be variations if a name is a name is a name?

Calling "Kami-sama" by "Deus" is both accurate and enough. There's no need for any variation. Having Piccolo talk to him using the 2nd person while everyone else would use the 3rd gives us that difference in treatment (or even have him say "deus" for a more visual difference).

"Raio da Morte" for "Makankosappou"? No excuse. Just put a footnote if you want to explain the meaning.

"Kamesennin"/"Muten Roushi"/"Tartaruga Genial". I always thought "Kamesennin" was his name (it's what's written on his driving license, isn't it?) and "Muten Roushi" his world-renowned title, so they could keep both as is, I guess. "Tartaruga Genial" is close enough but in my opinion, despite it being an old dubism, there could be a more faithful translation ("Tartaruga Hermita"/"Hermita Tartaruga", maybe?)

"Dragon Balls"/"Bolas do/de Dragão". "Dragon Ball" is their name. I'll agree some sentences might sound awkward with their name in English (the same as "Dragon Radar") but just stick to one term.

"Saiyanjins". No. I wouldn't like "Saiyans" either, no need to "Englify" it. Both "Saiya-jin" and "Saiya" would be fine, even if "Saiyano" or whatever would be more accurate.

"Kika"/"Chichi". It's understandable why they changed it but nowadays people should just be used to know that names can and do have different pronunciations and meanings. Also, this is a work of fiction. It's kinda childish if they really changed it just because it looks the same as "piss". Given that they even explained her real name, no need to keep the dub one.

"Chi"/"Ki". I don't mind them using "Chi" alone and "Ki" for attacks, but I'm not that knowledgeable about their differences.

To be honest, I don't mind honorifics at all, and they kinda expand the text (provided you understand what they can mean) but I'll agree they can be superfluous and lead to very strange sentences.

Also, when I say it doesn't bother me, I'm considering the point of view of a newbie. I don't believe that a newbie will be confused because I think its fairly obvious that they are different ways of referring to something or someone.When a newbie reads "Muten Roshi" and then "Tartaruga Genial" he or she will get that they are different ways of referring to that person. In fact, he or she will benefit from it because they will realize that are different way to refer him, and learn them, becoming more educated. Meaning, its more of a advantage than a disadvantage.
Of course, like I said, a few notes explaining things further wouldn't hurt at all and I would prefer that, but just this is already pretty good.

Actually, if a person unfamiliar with the series would read the Portuguese manga, I'd think they would get confused because, having no references, they wouldn't understand what the correct/original term was and why there were several of them.

To be honest, ''chichi'' and ''xixi'' are pronounced differently, to me, because ''chichi'' ''chi'' and ''xixi'' ''xi'' (shi), odd how both are said the same way even though they're two different ways.

The new Portuguese orthographic agreement should've corrected this, but instead, they've just fudged up a lot of it.

What do you mean? "Chi" and "shi" are pronounced the same, there's no way around it. The ortographic agreement has nothing to do with it...

[Rukura]

Calling "Kami-sama" by "Deus" is both accurate and enough. There's no need for any variation. Having Piccolo talk to him using the 2nd person while everyone else would use the 3rd gives us that difference in treatment (or even have him say "deus" for a more visual difference).

Didn't we have "Todo-Poderoso" in the dub? There's a dubism I would've prefered, if they really wanted to get around using God

"Raio da Morte" for "Makankosappou"? No excuse. Just put a footnote if you want to explain the meaning.

Totally forgot about that. Was that even our dub name for Makankosappo at all? Really dumb that they used it either way. Even more so since they had dropped it by the time the attack was last said. As I read it, it felt like they literally decided to go back on the decision to use the original, so in that way it felt sloppy.

"Kika"/"Chichi". It's understandable why they changed it but nowadays people should just be used to know that names can and do have different pronunciations and meanings. Also, this is a work of fiction. It's kinda childish if they really changed it just because it looks the same as "piss". Given that they even explained her real name, no need to keep the dub one.

Like I said previously, our dubtitles of Dragon Ball Kai totally throw that argument out the window.

[Puto]

"Raio da Morte" for "Makankosappou"? No excuse. Just put a footnote if you want to explain the meaning.

Totally forgot about that. Was that even our dub name for Makankosappo at all? Really dumb that they used it either way. Even more so since they had dropped it by the time the attack was last said. As I read it, it felt like they literally decided to go back on the decision to use the original, so in that way it felt sloppy.

Our dub name for Makankôsappô... is inexistent. Because all Piccolo/Satan said in the dub was "Atenção!"

Raio da Morte was a cross-translation issue: Viz had Light of Death there.

[Rukura]

Acording to Bongop, volume 18 will be released around September or October, but it will indeed be the final one. Seems like it really did sell well below what would've made it viable for them to continue releasing it.

I keep hearing people complaining about Portugal never getting proper editions of anything. THIS is why. When they actually appear, people don't support them.
Much like I had to turn to FUNimation's Dragon Boxes to get a proper edition of the anime, I'm gonna have to turn to Shueisha's original edition to get all of the manga.

[jrdemr]

Rats. Now I'm going to have to turn to Viz's edition. Censorship and stupid name translations... yay...

[rereboy]

Rats. Now I'm going to have to turn to Viz's edition. Censorship and stupid name translations... yay...

After Vol. 18 the censorship is almost non existing. And there's two "stupid" name translations: Hercule and Vegerot (even though Vegerot has valid logic behind it).

I have the Vizbigs and they are pretty good.

Acording to Bongop, volume 18 will be released around September or October, but it will indeed be the final one. Seems like it really did sell well below what would've made it viable for them to continue releasing it.

I keep hearing people complaining about Portugal never getting proper editions of anything. THIS is why. When they actually appear, people don't support them.
Much like I had to turn to FUNimation's Dragon Boxes to get a proper edition of the anime, I'm gonna have to turn to Shueisha's original edition to get all of the manga.

That's too bad. Oh well, it actually went on longer than I expected and I got uncensored copies of early Dragon Ball Volumes in my language, which is where most of the censorship is concentrated (in Viz's edition anyway).

Btw, Vol 18 ends with Nappa beginning his attack on the warriors... Its a really bad place to end the series . I think that they should have just including the remaining chapters of the Piccolo arc in Vol 16 and end the release there. Would have been much better.

As for Portugal... We're just a too small of a market filled with too many people living off salaries too small for most of the price tags applied to entertainment and cultural products in this country. In other countries, books, dvds and such are cheaper or around the same and the salaries are much larger on average.

[jrdemr]

I said what I said, but I know it could be much worse, nevertheless. I just meant to lament the loss of the portuguese edition's benefits (then again, the stupid names only come after the introduction of Mr. Satan, so, if this edition were to continue, we could've still had them...). I also have a lot of other viz manga (5 entire collections, actually, with two more on the way) that, while censored, are perfectly readable. Viz's quality is pretty good overall, and that's why I buy their manga, but they sometimes do stuff that just gets under my skin, like the "potion punch" affair in Naruto.

Oh, and another thing that's stupid about viz's edition: the division between Dragon Ball and Dragon Ball Z.

And back to the stupid name translations, don't we also have "Djinn Buu", instead of "Majin Buu"?

And yes, I agree with you, "Vegerot", isn't exactly stupid, just... strange, compared to our own Dragon Ball knowledge, but I agree it makes perfect sense.

Well, the Viz edition does have two perks: no inconsistencies and Toriyama's volume notes...

[rereboy]

The division is stupid, but in our case (Portugal's case) it could have been a sound strategy.

By treating them as two separate collections, like Viz, we would have one collection completed (Dragon Ball - 16 volumes plus a few chapters) because, as we saw, they were able to release even more than 16 volumes.
And even if it ended there, it would have been better that ending it on volume 18, and actually taking the risk of Vol 16 being the last volume, without those remaining chapters included to complete the Piccolo Jr arc, which was a real risk that they actually took, because they didn't know for sure if they would be able to extend the release for two more volumes.

After having that release completed, they would look at the sales and decide if they should release another collection of 26 volumes regarding Dragon Ball (which would correspond to Dragon Ball Z). If they decided to do so, it would be with the full intent of releasing 26 volumes and completing that collection. If they decided to stop, we would have a release of Dragon Ball that stopped at the best point possible (the end of the Piccolo arc) which would be somewhat satisfying.

So, the division would be less stupid in Portugal's case, IMO.

As for Djinn, well there is nothing wrong with it, I believe. Majin refers basically to "genie" or "magical person" and the like. Djinn is basically another way of saying genie, so what Viz did was translate / adapt "Majin" to something close to it in english given the context. They could have left it untranslated, but their choice is not exactly wrong.
Also, Buu is the only one that is refereed to as Majin. "Majin Vegeta" is a fan term in origin.

Herm actually wrote about it on the forums. Here is what he said:

"Djinn" is a standard and valid way of translating majin. Actually, I hear djinn is plural and it should technically be "djinni" for a single guy, but other than that there's not really anything wrong with it.

Funnily enough, "djinni" sounds like "genie"

That's not a coincidence. The word "genie" was coined as a translation of djinni, out of the Latin word for "spirit". And it actually originated in French and entered English that way, or something like that, it's somewhat complicated. But the short of it is that "genie" sounds like "djinni" because the word was created specifically for that reason.

In http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... n&start=20