Dragonball & YouTube

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:12 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:I am of the belief that downloading helps companies. Oh I'm sure people will argue this isn't true, but I believe it is. Downloading on the internet and watching videos on Youtube

Ya....you just keep telling yourself that.

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 6:16 pm

Nice argument there chief. Its okay if you're chicken.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 7:03 pm

It is a bad thing but what isn't these days? I have a problem with people taking credit for things they didn't edit/upload on You Tube. I don't want to sound like too much of a hypocrite(sp), I watch DB videos on there all the time. In certain cases, you can understand that it isn't bad like pekingduck's(sp) rare videos. You Tube really shouldn't be seen as a very, very bad thing though. There are much worse things on the internet, DragonBall pirating is far from the worst.

Mr. Announcer · Post by **Mr. Announcer** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 8:13 pm

Oh man, this makes me feel like the guiltiest person in the world because I just spent 5 hours straight on You Tube watching all those episodes from the 22nd tournament arc that I missed out on. I really do believe that it's wrong but I suppose the difference between me and perhaps many other viewers out there is that I have every intention of purchasing the DVDs for those episodes eventually since the quality on You Tube isn't anywhere near satisfying enough for me, and I've already poured plenty of money into the Dragonball fund. ....At least, that's what I'll say to console myself right now. Forgiveth me!!

theoriginalbilis · Post by **theoriginalbilis** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 10:55 pm

I'll watch clips and music videos on Youtube (which is what it's more geared for), but I just can't bring myself to watch a full episode or movie on that site since the quality is damn near unwatchable for me.

That's really all I have to say towards Youtube.

Tsukento · Post by **Tsukento** » Sun Sep 24, 2006 11:35 pm

Considering all of DBZ is being made available still on DVD in the US and is coming closer to completion in Japan, there's really no excuse not to be get them legit. I think we can all agree that when it comes to some shows that aren't even made available in their original format to the public outside of Japan, it should be fine. Like..oh, I dunno, One Piece, perhaps?

MajinMetroid · Post by **MajinMetroid** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 2:01 am

Victator Supreme wrote:

I am of the belief that downloading helps companies. Oh I'm sure people will argue this isn't true, but I believe it is. Downloading on the internet and watching videos on Youtube

In a way, I halfways agree with this. Do you think Naruto (just the best current example) would be as big as it is in the states right now if downloading the episodes and manga wasn't an available option?

You can't download things like t-shirts and action figures and I don't think it's hard to imagine that sales of things like this have benefited from fans that illegally view the property in question.

Quick question: Does anyone know how places like Barnes and Noble justify allowing anyone to sit and read all their material but never being obligated to buy anything?

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:48 am

To lose the money they would of had to of had it in the first place. They were not going to get that money to begin with.

WTF?

That is the lamest reasoning I have ever seen. Let's assume we've got 400,000 people downloading the episodes of a show (which is considerably less than those doing the same for things like Naruto these days). Anyway, of those 400,000 people, at least three quarters of them (300,000) would have purchased the series without ever seeing the Fansubs. At $15 a DVD for a series that runs 30 discs, that's $135,000,000.

However, now that half of those people have seen the series already for free they decide not to purchase it, and only half of the people who wouldn't have purchased it had they not seen the Fansubs decide to get it. So, now instead of 300,000 people buying the series we've only got 200,000. That's $90,000,000. So, explain to me how losing $45,000,000 because of Fansubs makes them a good thing for the company?

I'm not saying I'm against subs. Hell, I've got 110 episodes of Naruto back in my room and I'm still watching more on YouTube. But I fall into that 'going to buy the series' group. The sad fact is, at least 50% of Fansub views don't purchase the shows they saw for free or go for the cheaper bootlegs over the legit releases. Yes, Fansubs can stir up new interest where it wouldn't have existed, but in the best case scenario the two factors will cancel each other out.

Kind of off topic but what is the legality of taking footage from the show and repackaging it into an AMV? Is it because we own the footage, therefore we can do with it what we wish, as long as we don't profit from it?

AMVs are a bit of a 'gray area' in a sense. Not only are you releasing the copyrighted video (even if only in part and not always in context) you're also releasing copyrighted music. Now, most companies don't really seem to care too much about AMVs. They're still fairly niche and, at least when it comes to movies/series, not exact reproductions of their property. However a few record lables (like Evanescence's label) have issued 'cease and desist' orders to plays like Animemusicvideos.org. Techincally speaking, though, they are illegal.

Quick question: Does anyone know how places like Barnes and Noble justify allowing anyone to sit and read all their material but never being obligated to buy anything?

It's the idea that most people aren't going to spend 10+ hours sitting in their store just to read a book. They'll read a chapter or two and then purchase it to read it at their leisure and where they want (instead of being confined to just the store). It's really just another version of the "Satisfaction guarnteed or your money back" line most infomercials spew out. Only in this case you pay after instead of before.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 7:35 am

Victator Supreme wrote:Nice argument there chief. Its okay if you're chicken.

That wasn't an argument. That was pity for you.

Post by **VegettoEX** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:45 am

As has been mentioned, there's a huge distinction between "the law" and "my own personal morals/ethics and outlook on the world". If you can't make a distinction between these two, please don't embarass yourself by making your thoughts known.

No, it's not OK.

The end.

I actually don't have much of a problem with people discussing it, as long as you're not all trading links to episodes and movies and additional nonsense back and forth. It's one thing for an unlicensed show, but for Christ's sake, I'm picking up these movies for $16 at Best Buy. Get a fucking job.

Bah, you all know how I feel. *shakes a fist*

Victator Supreme · Post by **Victator Supreme** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 9:49 am

Sure thats it.

That is the lamest reasoning I have ever seen. Let's assume we've got 400,000 people downloading the episodes of a show (which is considerably less than those doing the same for things like Naruto these days). Anyway, of those 400,000 people, at least three quarters of them (300,000) would have purchased the series without ever seeing the Fansubs. At $15 a DVD for a series that runs 30 discs, that's $135,000,000.

Thats a huge assumption to be making.

Mr.Piccolo · Post by **Mr.Piccolo** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:04 am

MajinMetroid wrote:Victator Supreme wrote:
I am of the belief that downloading helps companies. Oh I'm sure people will argue this isn't true, but I believe it is. Downloading on the internet and watching videos on Youtube
In a way, I halfways agree with this. Do you think Naruto (just the best current example) would be as big as it is in the states right now if downloading the episodes and manga wasn't an available option?

You can't download things like t-shirts and action figures and I don't think it's hard to imagine that sales of things like this have benefited from fans that illegally view the property in question.

Quick question: Does anyone know how places like Barnes and Noble justify allowing anyone to sit and read all their material but never being obligated to buy anything?

You actually brought up a very good point with the Barnes and Noble thing. When I would go to B&N to look at the DragonBall manga before I bought them, I scrolled through them with the intent to buy them. Once you watch full episodes or movies on YouTube, there is a very good chance, unless you are a collector, that you are going to buy those movies. *Sigh* Forgive me dragonball fans, I've even seen movies that I own on YouTube. The thing with that is it is semi-ligit because I paid my dues. It works along the lines of the story with Mike and Julian and Super Butoden 2(3). Mike had the game, so it kind of works out, doesn't it?

Bejiita · Post by **Bejiita** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:10 pm

Anyone who thinks that this is a good thing for companies doesn't know very much.

As soon as someone find it for free their next action is to find as much as they can, it is bad for companies, the only positive thing can be the advertising but the fact that your getting the desired footage you want for free it defies the point of advertisment.

So either ways you're still watching DBZ for free so it's illegal. I'm guessing YouTube are going to go through many problems with the law sooner or later, either forcing them to enforce certain uploading rules or they will get shut down. Dragonball isn't the only pirate material available on there, not by far. There is also footage of street fights from school kids, some have been removed, it was in the News about these girls.

Post by **desirecampbell** » Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:34 pm

Well, if Mike has given his 'blessing' for the discussion, I'll add my two cents.

The discussion shouldn't be focused on legality. It's illegal in some countries (The United States), but not in others (Sweden), while other countries haven't really come to a decision (Canada). Furthermore - laws are by no means infallible. Some laws, perhaps these ones, are unjust.

The point that should be discussed is the morality of watching such videos. But because this is a moral issue, it's different for everyone. You cannot, cannot, say that one opinion is 'right' and others are 'wrong'.

Consider this: if you think watching a full DBZ movie online is wrong, consider why it's wrong. Is it wrong to watch it because the studio that produces it isn't being paid? If so, why? Watching the video on YouTube doesn't cost Toei anything. Is it wrong to watch because you, personally, didn't pay for it? If so, why? Would you feel the same way if you went over to a friend's house to watch it with him? You didn't pay for that either. What if he lends out the video to you? True, his circle of friends is probably smaller than the potential viewers on YouTube, but is the number of people who watch it for free a factor? How many people does it take? Would a library lend out to this many people?
Consider commercials. They cost money to produce, and air - do you feel it's alright to have these up on YouTube? True, commercials are meant to be watched for free, to entice people to buy the product - but what about if the product is no longer available? Then the only reason to watch the commercial for free is invalid. Seems to me the same rules should apply to commercials as to movies.
Is it wrong to watch a DBZ movie on YouTube because of its length? That is, most people believe that watching 'clips' from the film are alright, but why would length be taken into consideration? If you believe it's wrong to watch two hours for free on YouTube, then you should think it equally wrong for watching one hour, half an hour, 10 minutes, 5 minutes....
Do you believe it's wrong to watch these things because it's available for purchase in your region? To me, it seems a strange reason. I'm curious to see how many here, that decry watching DBZ on YouTube, feel about watching One Piece on YouTube. Is it alright to 'pirate' such shows if the local distributor if they are doing a terrible job... in your opinion? Is alright to 'pirate' an available product because you disagree with the local distribution company? That is a very capitalist way of thinking. If you don't want a product, don't pay for it. The producer will either change the product to be something you do want to buy, or he will cease to exist. But, what about the original production company? What's the difference between the local distributor and the original distributor? Well, the only main blocker would be product price - it usually costs much more to ship DVDs from Japan. But is that reason enough to (perhaps) illegally obtain the product? That's just a disagreement with the publisher again: not about content, but price. There's always a way to get DVDs from other countries, or watch TV from other countries - it just might be expensive.
Consider shows that are unavailable for home purchase. Whether this be because the videos are out-of-print, or they never were released, is that reason to obtain them without paying the production company?
Is it alright to watch YouTube DBZ episodes because of the terrible quality? That, again, seems like a strange sticking point. Visual, audio, and translation quality are all open to interpretation. What is 'good quality' to some may be 'unacceptable quality' to others. The quality of any of these things could change over time, due to technological advances. Would YouTube be alright if it had DVD quality video and the domestic releases had High-definition video?
Does having these videos online hurt or help the producers of them? Points can be made for either side. They allow for many people to be introduced to the series/movie, but many of those will not necessarily go out and purchase the product.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with anyone, but I suspect to get a few 'heated' replies. Remember, I'm just asking some questions. If your answer is 'yes' or 'no' to any of these, that's your business, not mine. I'm not going to say you're right or wrong - but I will point out any logical fallacies you might use to defend your position. Remember, your beliefs don't need to be justified - they're beliefs, and I will treat them as such. But if you start saying your 'right'... I may have to start demanding proofs*.

* Yes, "proofs". Scientific, non-ethics-based proofs that you are correct.

//edit// Guess I'm "pretty cozy here" now.

Xyex · Post by **Xyex** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 8:09 am

Victator Supreme wrote:Thats a huge assumption to be making.

What? Statistics are huge assumptions and your random thoughts are fact?

Maphisto86 · Post by **Maphisto86** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 9:07 am

desirecampbell wrote:Oh crap - let's end this quickly:

1. It is against the YouTube 'terms of service' to upload anything you don't own the copyright for.

2. It is illegal in many countries (including the United States) to download copyrighted material.

3. Whether or not it is moral to download such material is not something that can be stated simply. Morality is personal, everyone's morals are different.

I don't think EX wants to discuss the morality of fansubs on this board. He's made his position clear already. If he states he would allow it - I'd happily join the discussion - but until EX says so, I think we should ix-nay on the 'tube-yay.

*In a Scruffy (janitor from Futurama) voice* "...Second..."

I mean I don't mind small clips being shown on You Tube or similiar stuff like ad's or music videos and the like but full fledged episodes? I admit I have watched some but I don't anymore and I buy the DVD's when I get the chance. This topic will be nixed by the way...

future_trunks · Post by **future_trunks** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 10:34 pm

Victator Supreme wrote:Nice argument there chief. Its okay if you're chicken.

Wow, is there going to be some jerseymilk, Victator Supreme feud now. If so, I'm totally taking Jerseymilks side because frankly, I think Victator Supreme's post in this thread have been very stupid.

It is illegal, sure we here on the forum have intentions of buying it, but it's a sick world out there. Over on Youtube, I posted a comment on "The New Guardian" episode that it is illegal and isn't cool, and they all thought it was some huge joke or that I was a freak.

Just don't do it.

Blastero · Post by **Blastero** » Tue Sep 26, 2006 11:39 pm

To lose the money they would of had to of had it in the first place. They were not going to get that money to begin with.

No. The entire idea is based off of a "what-if" concept. Sure, no money ever belonged to anyone, and therefore, couldn't have really been taken away from them, but money that they would have had, and rightfully deserve has not been paid.

That's why real life stealing is immoral. Do you think the stores and companies really care if they're missing a CD or a DVD? No. The tangible item is not a big issue. The real issue lies with weather or not everyone has been payed accordingly.

It's exactly the same with downloading episodes, except this time, not only is the physical product not an issue, but there is no physical product to begin with.

Akira · Post by **Akira** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 12:18 am

Desire, it doesn't matter if you think some laws are unjust. If you reside in a country, you are obligated to follow those laws, period. Opinions mean very little, everyone has one. Things aren't so abstract that all opinions are equal. I mean this in a general sense, and not to this topic specifically. I hate seeing a general trend in society these days to accept every viewpoint, and see all opinions as equal, no matter what.

On this matter specifically, it is against the law in the United States. A law which has been put in place by elected leaders chose by the majority of the people. Therefore, it is what the majority of people agree to is right or wrong on an issue. Here it is wrong to steal the work of others. Therefore, there are no excuses or explanations to be made. Any opinion that tries to make a case for why they "think" it should be any other way than the the way the law dictates is wrong, bottom line.

I am not saying you advocate piracy, nor am I getting that from your post. I am merely saying that the "All opinions are equal and valid" idea is a fallacy that is being taught to everyone in schools these days and it is ruining a lot of minds.

That is not to say I think you are like that. Quite the opposite is the case. You are an intelligent person, who always has intersting things to say, and solid, well thought out points to make.

I have a personal dislike for the Opinions are all valid and equal argument, and I try to combat it whenever I see it. I just don't want to see people use that as an answer to anything in life. To me, a qualified opinion is one that has facts of some kind to back it up. If two rivaling opinions both have facts to back them up, then and only then, are they both valid and equal. Otherwise it is just a blanket statement that allows too many variables into a situation that need not be there.

Don't take this response too personal. I started out responding to what you said, but it transformed into a more generalized statement and viewpoint on a broader subject. It is, in closing, hopefully an eye opener to anyone who takes the time to read it. I hope it encourages people to strengthen thier own opinions before presenting them, and that includes me too. I am far from infallable, I often let my thoughts on a situation or subject take precedent over the evidence around me. So it is just as applicable to me as it is to you and everyone else.

And with that I'll stop typing..

Mystic Jack · Post by **Mystic Jack** » Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:00 am

If you want the flat out answer, no matter which way you look at it, people are being ripped off some way or another via someone downloading say: an episode of DBZ or a movie or something. If you were to ask around it would really depend on someone's personal morals, I personally think that no matter how much you bitch about it however, people are still going to do it. Problem is really, that everyone can whine about it but when push comes to shove if they catch someone downloading an episode what do they do?

Pretty much... nothing.

To be fair however, I think it's OK to put a treasured scene or something like that on youtube, that way it's kind of a teaser for a potential buyer, also think of it this way: without ripping our DVD's we wouldn't have AMV's or anything like that, and I KNOW people have posted it on the net, because well... it's out there. I know for a fact that admin's have posted their AMV's online, but because they made it in-sync with the music and all that stuff it's OK right? Wrong. It's still copyrighted material. Like I said.... They do it anyway.

Kanzenshuu

Dragonball & YouTube

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