Episode #0145 (07 September 2008)

We cover anything and everything Dragon Ball in hopes of enlightening... and a little bit of entertaining. Hosted every week by the Kanzenshuu staff and regular special guests from the professional and fandom communities. Your first, best, last, and only Dragon Ball podcast!

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
VegettoEX
Webmaster #1
Posts: 15008
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Episode #0145 (07 September 2008)

Postby VegettoEX » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:12 pm

Episode #0145 (download MP3) (rss feed)
74:00; 64 kbps, mono; 33.8 MB

Episode #0145! VegettoEX, Meri, and Julian bring on our buddy Desire Campbell to talk about the idea of "canon" as it relates to the Dragon World. How do you even begin to explain the concept as a whole, and what types of breakdowns can we make? Video game and manga news, September's releases, DBZ ABCs, and your great e-mails round out the episode. Referenced sites:


Go ahead and grab it. Big thanks to godofchaos for hosting the kinda nice *one-hundred-forty-five* episodes, now.

And there you have it. A wonderful episode. Perhaps the best you've ever heard. You just don't realize it yet.

w0rd.
:: [| Michael "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu |] - [| VegettoEX.com |] ::

User avatar
Herms
Julian #2
Posts: 10484
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:40 pm
Location: Jupiter
Contact:

Postby Herms » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:21 pm

I'll listen to this tomorrow, but let me just say that I'll be deducting 5 points from this episode for every time someone uses "canon" as it's own adjective form (ie "X is canon" rather than "X is canonical". That drives me crazy, that does.
Kanzenshuu: Super!
City-Z: me rambling about One-Punch Man
an hour to climb it, an hour to go around it

User avatar
SSj_Rambo
I Live Here
Posts: 3499
Joined: Tue Apr 01, 2008 4:10 pm
Location: West City

Postby SSj_Rambo » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:27 pm

I've always been fascinated by that Dragon Radar Mobile Game, my hopes have always been to try and rip the soundtrack and sound bits from it. Thanks for finally talking about it on your podcast (Dragon Radar Mobile on podcast = highlight of the day)!

Great episode guys, and it was great to hear from Desire again!

User avatar
Captain Awesome
I Live Here
Posts: 2481
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:31 am
Location: Australia, Planet Earth

Postby Captain Awesome » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:44 pm

Herms wrote:I'll listen to this tomorrow, but let me just say that I'll be deducting 5 points from this episode for every time someone uses "canon" as it's own adjective form (ie "X is canon" rather than "X is canonical". That drives me crazy, that does.


I'm downloading it now.. but if I don't hear a single discussion about cannons, the firing of cannons, or even just how neat cannons are, I will be very disappointed, possibly deducting hundreds of points.
Herms wrote:The first thing of DragonBall I ever saw was one of the segments where Goku is training on his way to Planet Namek. So I assumed Goku was a spaceship captain.

User avatar
JAPPO
I Live Here
Posts: 2149
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:03 am

Re: Episode #0145 (07 September 2008)

Postby JAPPO » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:59 pm


I thought you weren't covering any more of these remastered sets?
If challenge had a taste, you'd be quite delicious.

User avatar
sailorspazz
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Postby sailorspazz » Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:59 pm

Herms wrote:I'll listen to this tomorrow, but let me just say that I'll be deducting 5 points from this episode for every time someone uses "canon" as it's own adjective form (ie "X is canon" rather than "X is canonical". That drives me crazy, that does.


And I'll deduct 5 points anytime someone uses "it's", which is a contraction of "it is", when they mean to use "its", the possessive form of "it" :P

(haven't finished listening to the episode yet....I came here to be a bitch :wink: )

Jappo: Putting a link to Season 6 doesn't necessarily mean they discussed it, but rather that they simply mentioned it as an upcoming release.
A veteran fan-girl past her prime, spreading nonsense across the internet through the following venues:
Making irrelevant observations on Twitter
Being shipping trash on Tumblr
Writing dirty fanfics on fanfiction.net and ao3. Ships I've been compelled to write about include Vegeta/Bulma and Black/Zamasu (twice!)
Drawing dumb pics on DeviantArt
Having a YouTube channel (now with TWO whole videos!)

User avatar
Herms
Julian #2
Posts: 10484
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:40 pm
Location: Jupiter
Contact:

Postby Herms » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:03 pm

sailorspazz wrote:And I'll deduct 5 points anytime someone uses "it's", which is a contraction of "it is", when they mean to use "its", the possessive form of "it" :P

Bah, eye ment two due that.
Kanzenshuu: Super!
City-Z: me rambling about One-Punch Man
an hour to climb it, an hour to go around it

User avatar
VegettoEX
Webmaster #1
Posts: 15008
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2004 3:10 pm
Location: New Jersey
Contact:

Re: Episode #0145 (07 September 2008)

Postby VegettoEX » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:06 pm

JAPPO wrote:

I thought you weren't covering any more of these remastered sets?

Like sailorspazz mentioned, we note these sets in our "Releases" segment... hardly any real "covering" going on. No interest what-so-ever in picking them up, and therefore no additional reviews to be had.

Captain Awesome wrote:but if I don't hear a single discussion about cannons, the firing of cannons, or even just how neat cannons are, I will be very disappointed, possibly deducting hundreds of points.

No worries about that ^_~.
:: [| Michael "VegettoEX" LaBrie |] ::
:: [| Kanzenshuu |] - [| VegettoEX.com |] ::

User avatar
desirecampbell
Moderator
Posts: 4289
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 9:55 pm
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Re: Episode #0145 (07 September 2008)

Postby desirecampbell » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:10 pm

VegettoEX wrote:
Captain Awesome wrote:but if I don't hear a single discussion about cannons, the firing of cannons, or even just how neat cannons are, I will be very disappointed, possibly deducting hundreds of points.
No worries about that ^_~.

We made a point to clarify "canon" and "cannon". :wink:

User avatar
Taku128
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1663
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 1:22 am

Postby Taku128 » Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:51 pm

Evil VegettoEX huh? What would his username be, GogetaAlpha? :lol:
­

User avatar
NeptuneKai
I Live Here
Posts: 3577
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2007 9:51 pm

Postby NeptuneKai » Sun Sep 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Taku128 wrote:Evil VegettoEX huh? What would his username be, GogetaAlpha? :lol:


I made a joke like this a few nights ago to my friend and called him VegerotTurbo.
Aro started to laugh. “Ha, ha, ha,” he chuckled.- Actual quote from Twilight

User avatar
sailorspazz
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1099
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2004 8:55 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Contact:

Postby sailorspazz » Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:04 am

LOL, I was surprised to hear Julian say "fuck"....usually the harshest interjection we hear from him is, "oh, dear...." :P

Canon discussions hurt my brain almost as much as power level and timeline discussions ^_^;;
A veteran fan-girl past her prime, spreading nonsense across the internet through the following venues:
Making irrelevant observations on Twitter
Being shipping trash on Tumblr
Writing dirty fanfics on fanfiction.net and ao3. Ships I've been compelled to write about include Vegeta/Bulma and Black/Zamasu (twice!)
Drawing dumb pics on DeviantArt
Having a YouTube channel (now with TWO whole videos!)

User avatar
Captain Awesome
I Live Here
Posts: 2481
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:31 am
Location: Australia, Planet Earth

Postby Captain Awesome » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:06 am

Great podcast guys!,

I loved the topic, and it's always great to hear from our local forum celeb Desire, too bad Julian couldn't make the recording, I would have liked to hear his take on it.

I've always followed the Star Wars "Levels of canon" way of thinking, and the way I see it, is if I like something in the anime (or in Toyble's DBAF) and it doesn't contradict something with a higher order of canon, I more or less accept it, a good example is movie 13; I more or less consider it canon, because besides Ultimate Gohan being weaker than Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku, it doesn't have a whole lot wrong with it, (as far as I can recall) and recently (well somewhat) Toyble created a fun little backstory that built upon the events of movie 13, and to me gave it a little bit of extra depth, which made it that much more enjoyable.

I suppose that's just my own personal take on it, the only other way to do things is to adopt a strict manga only approach to what is canonical and what isn't, and to me (while it makes discussions much simpler) it isn't much fun when there's so much good material extraneous to the original manga out there.

Anyway, that's just my two cents, keep up the fantastic work guys.
Herms wrote:The first thing of DragonBall I ever saw was one of the segments where Goku is training on his way to Planet Namek. So I assumed Goku was a spaceship captain.

User avatar
SSJ2bardock
I Live Here
Posts: 2546
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 1:10 am
Location: Chicago

Postby SSJ2bardock » Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:10 am

NeptuneKai wrote:
Taku128 wrote:Evil VegettoEX huh? What would his username be, GogetaAlpha? :lol:


I made a joke like this a few nights ago to my friend and called him VegerotTurbo.


Mine was Kaioken King Vegeta :lol:
Da Bears

User avatar
Gozar
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1171
Joined: Sun Aug 24, 2008 2:18 am
Location: The Future
Contact:

Postby Gozar » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:03 am

Just want to throw this out there about the Saiyan hair color...Take a look at a timeline of events...Saiyan hair is without a doubt Black and there's no way getting around this...

First we have the Original designs for Bardock's Crew.

Then Toriyama says "Oh actually...Yadda Yadda Yadda"...Now you bring up a point about Toriyama saying "It doesn't really matter"...But I think it truly does matter because of event 3. Keep in mind that all of the first 2 events happened before Toriyama even wrote Goku meeting Freeza.

Finally, enter Trunks. Vegeta (In other words Toriyama) specifically states that all Full-Blood Saiyans have Black hair.

Toriyama actually adds this to the Manga. There's simply no way getting around this. In all seriousness, I find it ridiculous to try and even contradict the Manga directly with a simple note that can be taken 2 ways, written before Toriyama specifically states this.

Before I say anything about Levels of canon. I think I should say one thing, every fans interpretation can be so vastly different from anyone else’s. Basically I think every fan is entitled to his or her own personal opinion on what's canon and what's not. Basically, their own personal Canon Universe.

HOWEVER, when there are debates, there's no way people can be allowed to debate their own personal canon because it's going to contradict someone else’s. So I think when we're talking pure and utter FACT there needs to be levels and this is my view.

First off we have the the highest Level of all...All Original Toriyama concepts. This includes the Manga and Filler that we know specifically came from Toriyama's mind. Such as Yamcha being a Baseball player.

The next Level of Canon is the Bardock Special. The problem I have with this is...It's so hard to place this, I feel it truly is canon however it was not created by Toriyama. The problem arises when you look at it like this. The Bardock Special was created as basically a side-story. Toriyama liked it so much that he referenced it and basically confirmed the ending of the special in the Manga. Thus canon-izing Bardock. However the question arises. Does this mean the entire Special is canon? Was Bardock really psychic? Did all that other stuff happen? Or is the only Canon stuff the stuff Toriyama himself incorporated into the Manga.

Basically what the Bardock Special does is create a crazy whirlwind like this...The Bardock Special was the Original. Toriyama cut it down, however just like when the Anime changes stuff in the Manga it gets ranked lower. Doesn't this now mean that Toriyama is the one changing an original concept and by adding it making it so that Bardock is a canon character yet changes stuff from the original Bardock so therefore the first form of Bardock (The Special) is the correct one. But since Bardock is based off of Toriyama's DragonBall, doesn't it mean that what Toriyama does is what truly is...BLAH BLAH BLAH...Around and around we go. Where we stop? No one knows. Bottom line is, I find every event within the Special to be completely plausible and not contradict anything Toriyama wrote so there for it's very close to the canon-est of all since Toriyama canonized at least some of it. It's a matter of interpretation, I personally see the Bardock Special as 100% canon.

Now Level 3 is all good Filler. This includes all Filler that is plausible within the actual Manga. Such as extended scenes and what not that don't actually contradict anything.

Level 4 is Bad filler and GT. Stuff that contradicts the Manga directly and causes continuity problems.

Level 5 is the Movies and the Garlic Jr. Saga. Events that simply cannot take place due to timeline restraints. Not only are these contradictory but simply IMPOSSIBLE one way or another. Hell even Toriyama himself stated that the Movies are of an Alternate Universe to his Manga. So there is 1 instance where we have Toriyama kind of setting the laws of the DB Universe in a way.

Level 6, the final Level. Is, and I know I may get it for this from some people. But the Guide Books. Namely the Daizenshuu. Yes many things in the Daizenshuu are plausible, such as Tenshinhan being some Alien or what not. It's plausible and if a specific fan wants to recognize this as 100% canon in their own personal canon that's perfectly fine. HOWEVER, that Tenshinhan thing was never stated by Toriyama. How can one person look at a guidebook not written by Toriyama and say "This is canon, there's no way getting around it and everyone else is wrong." You can't, because the Daizenshuu are not like the Manga. The Manga is without a doubt no way getting around it the truest of all source for DB material.

NOW THEN!!! On to one other thing I'd like to bring up...Movie Universes...It is my belief (Hell Toriyama even agrees with this) that all of the Movies are of an Alternate Universe. Now I personally believe there is not 1 single AU, but rather 4 different AU's. This is a theory I wrote up one night...Keep in mind this Theory is MOVIE SPECIFIC. In other words...Does NOT include the Garlic Jr. Saga. PLEASE REMEMBER...These are just personal viewings by myself of pairings. I am in no way trying to force this on anyone.

AU #1: Movies 1-4: In this AU, Garlic Jr. attacks a few months before Raditz. In this AU, Gohan's hidden powers are discovered before Raditz. Then the Saiyans attack, but no one dies. Because of this, there is no trip to Namek made and instead the events of Movies 2-3 Happen. Then comes Movie 4, this is where Goku almost becomes a Super Saiyan. After Movie 4, Goku wants to obtain this power and harness it fully. So Goku trained hard over a span of 1.5 years to obtain Super Saiyan fully, and sometime during that span, succeeds. Some time in between Lord Slug's defeat and Trunks arriving on earth. Vegeta comes back seeking revenge, and gets his butt kicked by Goku, who either obtained SSJ already or tapped into Gigi SSJ again as with Lord Slug and defeats Vegeta. Vegeta then stays on earth and has Trunks. So then, Trunks arrives and Goku is already an SSJ as in the main plotline. Thus the rest of DBZ can go on as normally. The End.

AU #2: Movies 5-7: In this AU, Goku does not fully retain the power of SSJ. Thus while training for the Androids attack, cannot maintain the form at will during Cooler's attack. Movie 6 comes along, sometime between Movie 5 and the Android Attack, Kami decides that his time is drawing near and wants to begin training a new guardian to protect earth. So they get Dende, this explains why Dende is there and yet Gohan is not an SSJ. So then, Movie 6 happens....then the Android Saga goes on...except in this AU, they use the Suspension Remotes to defeat 17 and 18. Then, instead of Gero's computer working on Cell, it chooses to work on Androids 13-15 instead. Trunks hangs around for a while and these Androids attack. Thus Movie 7 happens. Now then, since there was no Cell and no Time Chamber...how could the Buu Saga happen? Well, what happens is, Buu attacks. The Z-Fighters are no match what so ever for him. Since Goku never died in this AU, he doesn't know the Fusion Technique, so that's out. So, what'll happen is, this is where Goku uses the Time Chamber. He spends 2 straight years inside. On the first year he obtains SSJ2. Then in the second year is able to obtain SSJ3 (Maybe a bit of a stretch, but it works). Now, since Cell never appeared, Hercule never became the "Savior of earth"...so Hercule never went to Buu's house, thus never got shot and made Buu spew out Evil Buu. So Goku comes out of the Time Chamber, with SSJ3...since he's not dead, doesn't feel like it'd be wrong for a dead guy to save the world. He fights Fat Buu at SSJ3...doesn't hold back...and defeats him. The End.

AU #3: Movies 8-12: In this AU, Broly attacks during the 10 Day peace period before the Cell Games. Gohan has not fully mastered FPSSJ which is why he is so much weaker than Goku in this Movie. Also, apparently in this AU, people are not hiding from Cell. So then, Broly is beaten and the Cell Games happen as normal. Then Movie 9 comes along, in this AU, Trunks is able to return to the past again without a lot of Time Machine Charging. I include Movie 9 into this AU simply because it can fit just fine. So then, Movie 9 happens. 7 years pass....during the 1 Month of training before the 25'th Tenkaichi Budokai, Movie 10 happens. Broly attacks and Gohan wins.....Now then, since Movies 11 and 12 are clearly set after the Buu stuff, the Buu Saga has to happen first...So then the 25'th Budokai comes along, everything goes as normal in the Buu Era. They fight Babidi...Gohan almost dies and is brought to the Kai Planet. Vegeta sacrifices himself. Goku starts teaching the boys Fusion, and goes back to Otherworld. However in this AU, Gotenks or Gohan defeats Buu. Most likely Gohan IMO. I'll say that either Gohan refused to let the boys Fuse again and face Buu...or Piccolo held them back from doing so. So Gohan fights Buu and beats him. Since Gohan beat Buu, there is no need for Goku or Vegeta to return to life. Then Movie 11 happens as normal. Then finally, since both Goku and Vegeta are dead....Movie 12 happens and Goku & Vegeta fight together. The End.

AU #4: Movie 13: In the Final AU...well this one is pretty simple, a stand-alone. All of DBZ happened as in the Main Plotline up to Kid Buu's defeat. The only difference is in this AU, 6 months pass after Kid Buu's defeat and they use the wish on Shenron to unlock the Music Box instead of erase the people's memories of Buu. So Movie 13 happens....1 year passes and then they erase the memory of Buu from people. Then, 10 years pass and Z finishes up as normal.

User avatar
Captain Awesome
I Live Here
Posts: 2481
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2007 1:31 am
Location: Australia, Planet Earth

Postby Captain Awesome » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:07 am

I really don't agree with the AU's you placed the movies in, you made some strange decisions (like sticking movie 9 with the impossible Broly movies, when on it's own it fits into the anime continuity just fine as does movie 13)

I think that it's a real stretch to try to link some of the films together, they really aren't cohesive enough to combine their own universes without one movie adding to the inconsistencies of another (your movie 8-12 AU)
Herms wrote:The first thing of DragonBall I ever saw was one of the segments where Goku is training on his way to Planet Namek. So I assumed Goku was a spaceship captain.

User avatar
LeprikanGT
I Live Here
Posts: 3398
Joined: Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:58 pm
Location: Namek
Contact:

Postby LeprikanGT » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:24 pm

Has the guy emailed back about showing off his dbz tattoos? I was interested in seeing them.

I'm looking into getting the Majin 'M' on my back [no it wont go on my forehead] I think it would look decent

User avatar
Son Wukong
Regular
Posts: 630
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 2:25 pm
Location: Also Kame House

Postby Son Wukong » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:46 pm

Fanmanga being canon just because it could fit in perfectly into the universe of the anime? I don't agree. Undoubtedly there can be parts that I can like very much but I feel like I'm deceiving myself if I try to take it as canon. It just doesn't have that level of authenticity to me.

User avatar
Super Ghost Kamikaze
I'm pretty cozy, here...
Posts: 1809
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Postby Super Ghost Kamikaze » Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:51 pm

I have a different view of Canon.

Highest level of canon is, by far, Neko Majin Z. It's the most internally consistant DBZ storyline, so it's obviously the highest of canonocity.

Then, American Toy Ads. The older the ad, the better! They wouldn't lie to us, because they are in the FUN business. People who make their money in fun can't lie. This is more true the further back you go, because these toy companies weren't jaded back then.

Then we have the actual toys. Especially those with gun and bazooka accessories. Because those are COOL. Kapew! Kabam! Kablooey!

Then the Daizenshuu not released in the US, 'cause they're encyclopedias, for goodness' sake. So they can't lie to us either. Also, they're magic books from Japan.

Then the US Daizenshuu, 'cause they(...er, it does) still at least look mystical.

Then the movies, because they're awesome and were in Japanese theaters. Also, Cooler and Janemba look awesome and Broly is the only REAL SSJ 'cause I said so.

....and then the manga and anime and whatever. They probably know what they're talking about or something. I dunno, Akira Toriyama and Toei always seemed to be stumbling around and not knowing what they're talking about, until Toriyama FINALLY got everything together by the time he got to making Neko Majin Z.

User avatar
Herms
Julian #2
Posts: 10484
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 6:40 pm
Location: Jupiter
Contact:

Postby Herms » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:03 pm

OK, so I finally got a chance to listen.

Good luck to Julian on taking the JLPT level 1! I'll be taking level 2 this year, so I've got a ways to go before I can catch up to Julian (the test's levels are in ascending order of difficulty, so 4 is the easiest and 1 the hardest). Azrael of Gaijin Smash wrote an interesting editorial about his experience with the test.

And for the record: Pig iron. I guess is the kanji Julian was talking about.

Big long thing about canon
I think Desire didn't properly take into account the different meanings of canon. He mentions the Shakespeare canon and explains it a bit, but “canon” in the sense of the Shakespeare canon has a different meaning (in this case, all the works verified as being by a certain author) than what DragonBall fans mean when they talk about “canon”. Going by the Shakespeare canon use of the phrase, all works by Toriyama would be part of a Toriyama canon, including DragonBall, Dr. Slump, Kajika, Sandland, and everything else he did, which isn't what DragonBall fans mean at all. Generally, DragonBall fans uses “canon” to refer to what is and isn't “true” of the fictional DragonBall world, which is more or less the same meaning the term has for things like Star Wars or Buffy fandom.

Shakespearean canon and the other traditional uses of the word refer to a work's status or authorship in the real world (“Was the play written by Shakespeare?”, “Is this gospel divinely inspired?”) while the modern fandom usage of canon refers to a work's relation to the fandom's fictional universe; whether or not that particular work is part of the main continuity, and/or whether or not it counts when talking about the series as a whole (“Are the events of DBZ movie 1 part of the TV series' continuity?” “Can things from filler scenes be used as evidence to prove a point?”).

While it's true that the concept of “canon” has been around for a long time, the meaning of the term as it is now used by DragonBall fans and other fan communities is rather recent. The first use of “canon” to refer to what does or doesn't count in a fictional universe came from Sherlock Holmes fans. However, their usage was still a bit different than how modern fandoms use the term (or at least it was originally; maybe they've since assimilated). The early Sherlock Holmes fans used “canon” as part of their game of pretending that Holmes was a real historical figure, and going off of this to come up with explanations of the various plot holes and inconsistencies in Arthur Conan Doyle's Holmes stories, which they treated as historical documents, to deduce “accurate” information on Holmes' life. [url=http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2088/did-sherlock-holmes-really-exist[url]The Straight Dope[/url] has a good explanation of the whole thing, but here's the most relevent part:

Let's call it the Game. The point is to pretend that Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson were real, that Watson wrote the stories reporting actual events, and that Conan Doyle was merely Watson's literary agent. Essentially, one applies Holmes's own methods to analyzing the stories, trying to explain the inconsistencies, fill the gaps, and identify the other characters and events.

To aficionados, the original stories are "the Canon" and "the Sacred Writings." There are volumes of writings about the Writings.

So basically, Holmes fans used “canon” as part of a joking, tongue-in-cheek effort to establish “facts” about a fictional character they pretended was real (the fact that the other term they used was “Sacred Writings” should give you a hint that they didn't think “canon” was a term to be seriously applied to fictional stories), while modern fandom uses the term seriously, to establish “facts” about fictional worlds admitted to be fictional. I guess there's nothing wrong with words changing their meaning over time, but I think it says a lot that the term was originally used in a tongue-in-cheek way, but is now used seriously and is the source of constant arguments.

I also don't remember “canon” being used by DragonBall fans until comparatively recently.

One of the problems I have with “canon” as used by DragonBall fans is that it's treated as if it were an official idea, when it was just a term created and defined by fans. As far as I know, there is no Japanese term equivalent to “canon” as used by English DragonBall fans. So unlike Star Wars or Buffy, were the series creators talk frequently about what is and isn't canon, Toriyama and everyone else involved in the creation of DragonBall were not and do not think in terms of “canon” [edit:listening further on, I see that you did cover this, which pleases me greatly]. The closest I've seen is gensaku, “original work”, which is used to refer to the manga (so much so that I don't think I've ever seen any piece of Japanese writing about DragonBall that refers to the manga as the manga. It's always gensaku). It's vaguely similar to “canon” in that it's used to distinguish between the original story (ie the manga) and everything that came later, but it's not used in the same sense of “ultimate, final authority” that canon is.

While Toriyama and those in charge of the anime never use “canon”, they do sometimes talk in terms of continuity. For instance, in his Daizenshuu 6 interview, Toriyama says that he views the movies as taking place in a “parallel dimension”. And really, I think that 99% of all the fan talk of “canon” is really about continuity, and should be discussed that way. “Canon” is a vague term whose definition varies from fan to fan (because, again, it was created by fans), but “continuity” has a more concrete meaning

On guidebooks:
The problem with trying to rank in terms of “canon” the guidebooks is that it involves treating them as a single homogenous entity, which they're not. There are guidebooks based purely on the manga, guidebooks based purely on the TV anime, guidebooks based purely on the movies and specials, and ones that cover them all (actually, I think Daizenshuu 7 is the only one to mix them all together, now that I think about it). For instance, Daizenshuu 4 is based purely on the manga, so going by Desire's ranking system, shouldn't it be directly below the manga? While Daizenshuu 5 is based on the anime, so it should be directly below the anime, while 6 should be below the movies. Each one is directly based off of the part of DragonBall-dom it a guide to, with imput from the creators, so I don't understand why Desire considers them so far removed from the original.

Another thing is that all of the guidebooks contain lots of information straight from Toriyama, and the anime/movie guides have lots of background information and whatnot from those who made the anime. For instance, Toriyama designed the model of the DragonBall cosmos in Daizenshuu 4. So shouldn't that map be at the highest level of canon? But the information that Tenshinhan is descended from aliens (descended from descendants of aliens, to be technical) isn't directly linked to Toriyama, so should it be at a lower level of canon? But then the entire book itself has Toriyama's stamp of approval, with him using the book introduction to praise the staff for doing a better job than he did at tying up all the lose ends and making things consistent (granted that this is mostly standard Japanese humility). It seems that Desire's idea of a ladder of canon simplifies things too much in cases like this.
======

OK, here are some other random, non-canon related thoughts:

You say that the notes about Saiyan's hair scheme and how it's shown in the anime is from Landmark and Forever, but Landmark and Forever are guides to only the manga. You're probably thinking about Tenkaichi Densetsu and/or Son Goku Densetsu, the two new anime guides. The anime guide daizenshuu also have features on Toriyama's notes, giving much of the same information as Tenkaichi and Son Goku Densetsu.

You brought up the plot holes surrounding Dr. Flappe and Kame-sennin's legend of the dragonballs. These actually do get addressed in Daizenshuu 7, and are sort-of-kind-of-not-really explained. No.8's bio mentions in it's “anime” section (the character bios sometimes have an “anime” section listing significant anime-only things about them) that in the anime Flappe is said to be No.8's creator, and suggests that maybe Flappe was Gero's assistant (there's a lot of “hey, maybe this is how it is” stuff like that in Daizenshuu 7). In the Particulars Dictionary, there's two pages devoted to anime-only things, and it mentions that legend from the anime of the creation of the dragonballs. It seems to take for granted that this legend isn't the real story of the dragonballs' origins (for obvious reasons), but notes that the reason there were seven dragonballs is never explained in the series, and says that perhaps this legend contains a clue. So again, not really the most helpful comment.

You said that a SSJ's aura is always present in the manga, but this isn't true. There are lots of panels where it isn't shown, generally when the SSJ in question is engaged in close combat with someone, or other cramped shots. Presumably this is because there wasn't any room to put the aura in without making the panel very cluttered.

Desire mentions No.20 saying a Super Saiyans' power can't be measured or some such thing. This gets referred to a lot, but there's actually no such line. He's probably thinking of Vegeta's statement that “Saiyans aren't the sort of thing that can be understand merely through calculations”.

Casual Matt says that Ginyu's name comes from the Chinese word for milk, but it's actually the Japanese word, ginyuu (specifically it's the word for “cow's milk”).
Kanzenshuu: Super!
City-Z: me rambling about One-Punch Man
an hour to climb it, an hour to go around it


Return to “The Podcast”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests