Tanooki's DBZ: Season 2 Box Set Dissection

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

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shenron002
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Post by shenron002 » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:09 pm

I'm dead serious, I emailed him and he emailed me back. Anyways if you doubt me, fill free to try yourself!

http://www.videopost.com/pages/steve.html

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Shenron002:
Hey, what are you trying to pull here!

1)http://img518.imageshack.us/img518/7069 ... 67jc1.png?(Season Set)
2)http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/4571 ... 22kt0.png?(Season Set)

Comparison

3)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/knkng/Bulma.jpg?(Dragon Box)
4)http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v326/ ... eauty.png?(Season Set)

Split Screen Comparison

5)http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b90/t ... kt0-1.png?

This is pathetic, I could do better with Photoshop!

Steve Franko:
you are looking a bad down conversion.? that is what is pathetic!
Shenron002:
So let me get this right, when they went to down convert it for DVD at 480p, they managed to damage the composition? and has nothing to do with the remastering you and your team applied to it?

Is there any chance that you and your team could do a frame by frame remastering by hand and realigning of the frames, that is comparable to Dragon Box/PONY Canyon's?

And is there any chance of turning it back to 4:3? I know if you turned the original Star Trek/Wizard of Oz to 16:9 there would be a heavy backlash of complaints for the Original Aspect Ratio.

Steve Franko:
here's the deal, i color corrected 16mm release prints with optical sound tracks. these prints are several generations down from the original interpositives (IP). i have to say for the age of the prints, they have held up remarkably well. in any case, you are correct, the original format was 4x3. the decision was not mine to re-crop these prints to fit into a 16x9 hd frame. that decision was made by the people at funimation. transfer was done 16x9 to a 24psf hd master. my job is to try to faithfully restore these prints as best as possible with in a tight budget. you are correct you can color correct frame by frame, but that would be cost prohibitive. until this project reaches the status of star wars, wizard of oz, snow white and the seven dwarfs, Lawrence of Arabia, sand pebbles and the godfather trilogy, this process will not happen. you really need to see these transfers on a hi def projector from the master transfer reels, then you might see the difference.
Last edited by shenron002 on Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:03 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Post by Kendamu » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:13 pm

Yes, until Dragonball Z reaches the status of those movies, FUNimation is prohibited by the laws of science to just buy the Dragonbox masters and sell those to us.

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Post by Tanooki Kuribo » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:15 pm

Steve Franko will be known as the guy who ruined DragonBall Z. :D

Fine, whatever shenron002 I apologize.
my job is to try to fathfully restore these prints as best as
possible with in a tight budget
Tight budget? According to FUNimation you had a million dollars! If that responce is actually from Steve Franko, he has horrible grammer. Thats comming from me... ME! :shock:

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Post by Kendamu » Thu Jun 14, 2007 9:40 pm

Are you sure that the dollar amounts being thrown out there had anything t do with what kind of money FUNi spent?

Sure, the place Steve Franco wors for may have paid a buttload of cash to get the equipment, but FUNi's paying them for the service of "remastering" DBZ.

It's not like if I want to get my car fixed I have to pay for every piece of equipment used to fix the car.

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Post by Castor Troy » Thu Jun 14, 2007 10:03 pm

Did FUNi pay him like 3 dollars an episode?

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Post by Eclipse » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:30 pm

you are correct you can color correct frame by frame, but that would be cost prohibitive. until this project reaches the status of star wars, wizard of oz, snow white and the seven dwarfs, Lawrence of Arabia, sand pebbles and the godfather trilogy, this process will not happen. you really need to see these transfers on a hi def projector from the master transfer reels, then you might see the difference.
Wow. The fact it cost money and it would not reach the status of popular movies was the whole reason for the lazy-ass remastering.

Wow. That is just sad =P
Although I've got a question. If the prints are this bad at 480p, wouldn't it be considerably worse at HD?

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Post by desirecampbell » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:35 pm

Eclipse wrote:Although I've got a question. If the prints are this bad at 480p, wouldn't it be considerably worse at HD?
That's a big 10-4 big daddy.

(I'm not sure where that came from :?)

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Post by MarcFBR » Thu Jun 14, 2007 11:51 pm

If he honestly believes what he said about downconverting (or what he seems to be saying...god knows with that grammar) then he has NO idea what he is doing.

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Post by Xyex » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:02 am

Eclipse wrote:
you are correct you can color correct frame by frame, but that would be cost prohibitive. until this project reaches the status of star wars, wizard of oz, snow white and the seven dwarfs, Lawrence of Arabia, sand pebbles and the godfather trilogy, this process will not happen. you really need to see these transfers on a hi def projector from the master transfer reels, then you might see the difference.
Wow. The fact it cost money and it would not reach the status of popular movies was the whole reason for the lazy-ass remastering.

Wow. That is just sad =P
Although I've got a question. If the prints are this bad at 480p, wouldn't it be considerably worse at HD?
Well, according to him, the HD versions don't have that damage and the damage came from converting it for the DVD. Thus, if you looked at the HD version, it'd be brilliant. :roll:
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Post by shenron002 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:31 am

Steve Franko:
you are looking a bad down conversion.? that is what is pathetic!
Lobster_Rage155:
"you are looking a bad down conversion." What the fuck does that even mean? I'd assume it's meant to be "You are looking at a bad down conversion" but even then, that doesn't make much sense.
Oh now, I understand what he ment to say.

are you looking at a bad down conversion? that is what is pathetic!
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Post by DBW » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:56 am

Steve Franko wrote:these prints are several generations down from the original interpositives (IP).
...

my job is to try to faithfully restore these prints as best as possible with in a tight budget.
Well, there's our answer. We already knew the quality was several generations down when they released the FAQ, and now we can pretty much confirm why FUNi decided to put the show in widescreen, to avoid paying money to fix the damage at the top and bottom of the screen. As expected this is a budget release, through and through.

True restoration? Nah, just run that shit through a filter.
Film damage? Hey, we can re-frame the entire series around it!
Steve Franko wrote:you are looking a bad down conversion.? that is what is pathetic!
Umm, even if True HD fixed the disappearing lines issue, the crappy color, insane brightness, and filtering effect (blur) would still be present.

Anyways, although this guy is coming off as an illiterate ass, we shouldn't get too angry at him. As he said, he was just doing what he was told by FUNi, and on a tight budget to boot.

But man, looking back on that old FAQ, it really is laughable...
http://www.funimation.com/seasonset/index.html
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Post by SonGokuGT » Fri Jun 15, 2007 2:39 am

Tanooki Kuribo wrote:Steve Franko, he has horrible grammer.
HA HA HA! OH WOW!

By the way... How come that most of the line fading happens during flashing scenes?

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Post by OutRun2 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:19 am

Hi guys :)

Well after not being able to resist the tempation of buying the season 2 set of Funi's DBZ dvds, I finally caved in and snagged a copy off ebay for $20. I will now give you my full impressions of the first dvd contained in the season 2 set.

I popped in disc one yesterday evening in my PS3. Let me start by describing my HT rig:

The PS3 is a very VERY nice standard def DVD player! The upscaling is phenomenal and I believe may honestly be better than the Oppo line of DVD players.

Anyway, while the Funi disc was running in my PS3, the MI dvd containing the same episode was running in my Oppo player. The Oppo player is world renowned(sp?) for being one of the best bang for your buck upscaling dvd players on the market.

Both players are connected via HDMI to my Yamaha 5990HTR Home Theater Reciever. The receiver is running a special $700 dollar Cryo twisted HDMI cable to my BenQ 8720 DLP front projector. This projector is top of line, with a native 720P lens and a CR of 15000:1. Retail on this PJ was a bit over $6000 last year when I bought it. Screen itself is a 16:9 Carada Brilliant White Projection Screen at approxiamately 110" big.

Now...after watching all the episodes on disc one of the Funi set and swapping back and forth between the Funi set and my MI DVD, let's just say my feelings are mixed.

The cropping on the Funi dvd is *DEFINITELY* noticeable *AND* distracting in many scenes. This particular episode(#40) has lots of facial close ups and you can just tell the ratio of the picture is just plain wrong.

Now...the ridiculous whiteness that you've seen in the screenshots posted all over the forums *IS* accurate and again....very bothersome and distracting! I swapped back to my MI dvd to compare and the difference is friggin enormous! This, to me, is a worse offender than the cropping! When the hell have you ever seen any human being with skin this pale??? The reason for this is simple. Funimation mastered these discs with the contrast ratio turned up way and I mean WAY too high! I honestly have no idea what they were thinking while they were mastering these discs, because anyone with even 5/20 vision could see that the contrast is just way too much. There IS some good news regarding the contrast issue however, and that is fortunately for me, my front projector is one bad-ass machine! In other words, I was able to significantly tame the blown-out whites by simply changing the color temperature on the unit from "Cool" to "Warm", then turn the contrast and brightness down some, and finally closing the iris on the lens a bit. This a pretty damn good difference and made the picture look much more natural and "Dragonbox-like". If you do not have a TV set that has color temperature adjustment, then I'm afraid you're screwed, and will have to deal with Funi's overly white scenes.

Now....moving onto one last thing regarding image quality. Despite the flaws described above, these Funimation dvds have one HUGE saving grace....the sharpness and detail. I am a sucker for image definition and clarity, and this dvd delivers is SPADES!!!! Jesus Christ.... the amount of clarity displayed on this dvd is B---A---N---A---N---E---R----S---!!!!!!!

I have never....and I mean NEVER seen this much detail, definition and sharpness on a dvd for an animated show....EVER!!!! Some scenes literally, and mean L-I-T-E-R-A-L-L-Y look as if Akira Toriyama himself walked up to my projection screen, and drew the picture by hand using water colors!!!! It's THAT ridiculous! After rubbing my eyes, and had to compare this dvd to my Blu-Ray version of Ghost in the Shell: Innocence on my PS3....guess what? I bullshit you not, even that disc doesn't have the clarity diplayed on these Funimation dvds! I gotta be honest here folks, I am the LAST person who thought I would have any kind of positive thing to say about these Funimation remastered dvds, but I am simply floored by what they did to get the picture this crystal clear.

Yeah it's cropped, yeah the colors aren't 100% accurate, and yeah the whites are blown to bits....but I'll be damned if it doesn't display the clearest most defined image ever shown on my projection screen!

Finally, I need to go on a serious rant regarding the audio and subs:

Simply put, what the HELL is going on with this English dub???? It's HORRIBLE!!!! I don't mean the voice performance itself, it's actually not TOO bad(although the new Vegeta is garbage incarnate), but the actual translation is garbage! I watched the episodes with the English dialog/5.1.Jp bgm track, and had the subtitles running at the same time.....the dialog spoken often resembles NOTHING to do with what the subs are saying! Infact, I've even spotted mistakes on a couple occasions!

When Bulma, Gohan and Krillin find the 6th fake Dragonball in that underground cave-like place after melting some ice, in English Gohan says "Yay, the 5th one!" while the subtitles say "Alright, we found the 6th one!" WTF???? I can't believe the amount of liberties Funimation took while creating this dub. It's downright embaressing and often times delivers dialog that has very little to do with the original Japanese dialog as proven by the what's being said in the subs.

Of all the things about these dvds, this is THE WORST offender PERIOD end of story! To think that many of you often bash the translation of the subtitles off boots, yet say nothing of the laughable translation of the English dub, is just mindblowing. I can't believe how many people were doing backflips and cartwheels over the news of Funi putting their English dub to the original Japanese 5.1 track. You guys should be as pissed as I am, that they didn't give us the ORIGINAL Japanese language audio track with the original Japanese background track as one 5.1. mix. Instead we gotta settle for 2.0 Stereo. The English dub track could've been set against a 7.1 DTS Japanese track for all I care, but what good would it have done when the damn translation is butchered to bits and liberty-ridden?

Bottom-line is this. The cropping here is an issue but I must admit, I did actually forget it about after a while, maybe because my projector can fill up my screen with no black borders on the top and bottom and that gives the illusion of watching it in full screen. The blown out whites and insane contrast level however, is more distracting than the cropping and definitely should be labeled as a major image quality issue. Fortunately for me, I am able to tame the whites significantly on my personal home theater setup, and it allows me to tolerate, if not ignore this issue altogether. I guess it pays to spend big bucks on a quality display :)

All that being said, I cannot for the life of me get over how insanely sharp this picture is. If I walked into my own room not knowing what kind of disc was in the player and somebody told me I was looking at a Blu-ray disc displayed in full blown 1080p, I'd believe you in a heartbeat. Being the image clarity and sharpness whore that I am, I cannot dismiss the joy at looking at a picture this detailed. If the Blu-ray version of Innocence can't even deliver this kind of definition against a STANDARD def dvd, then you know Funi at least did SOMETHING right!

Honestly, if Funi would have given us the original Japanese language and bgm track in its entirety at 5.1DD and not cropped the picture, I can honestly say I would be planning on buying these sets without a second thought. But given I now have the entire series on dvd courtesy of MI dvds, I don't even need to be bothered with them. The MI discs are still very very good and the subs, although not as "grammar-perfect" as Funi's, still hold their own and conveys the messages and story just as well.

Here's hoping Toei brings out a Blu-ray version with optional English subs :D

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Post by MarcFBR » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:39 am

The only reason it 'appears' 'clear' to you, beyond you not being able to notice the way the show was drawn, is because they just blurred the shit out of it.

IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE THAT

You are mistaking lack of 'grain' for clarity.

Of course, you came to Daizex and started talking about bootlegs, so you clearly aren't the smartest person on the planet, so it's understandable how you don't know the difference between clarity and 'the detail has been blurred away'.

And if you honestly believe it stands up to Ghost in the Shell in HD, then you are also blind. I love DBZ, but the animation of DBZ in 480p just DOES NOT stand up to 720p OR 1080p theatrical quality animation. Not a matter of opinion, that is just fact.

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Post by PrincessVegeta » Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:50 am

Lol at that Bukake image. I'll have to make a come back XD
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Post by lost in thought » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:00 am

I gotta' wonder if that expensive rig is compensating for something. :roll:

Moving along, I notice you mention about bashing bootleg subtitles. We've done so with very good and valid reasoning to that effect; because when push comes to shove, they're terrible. Not only that, but more often than not they're both a disservice to DragonBall as much as they are just generally insulting.

As for the dub, uh, well, you act like this is something new. And, if you were aware of what lies beyond the curtain, you wouldn't be bashing it nearly as badly (nor in such a stupid manner) as you are. There have been worse jobs out there, and while it isn't fantastic, at least it isn't the Ocean dub.

Now, about the audio, correct me if I am wrong; but I don't think Funimation can just snap their fingers and have the Japanese audio remixed in 5.1.

Finally, you're really touting your illegal acquisition of the show there. How's the admitted and celebrated theft from both companies treating you so far? Because you're going to get yelled at by a lot of people here if you aren't careful. Might want to pack a change of pants.

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Post by Xyex » Fri Jun 15, 2007 6:15 am

Funi putting their English dub to the original Japanese 5.1 track.
Wait, wait, wait. Original Japanese 5.1... what bizarro universe are you from? The original Japanese version was in, I'm 95% certain, mono. Not even sterreo. And no where near 5.1. :lol:
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Post by OutRun2 » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:13 am

Oh boy I'm gonna have a lot of fun here!
godofchaos wrote:The only reason it 'appears' 'clear' to you, beyond you not being able to notice the way the show was drawn, is because they just blurred the shit out of it.

IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO LOOK LIKE THAT

You are mistaking lack of 'grain' for clarity.
If this is indeed the case, then fair enough. That is something I was unaware of so point taken.
Of course, you came to Daizex and started talking about bootlegs, so you clearly aren't the smartest person on the planet, so it's understandable how you don't know the difference between clarity and 'the detail has been blurred away'.
I have no idea what you're referring to. I don't condone buying boots in any way shape or form.
And if you honestly believe it stands up to Ghost in the Shell in HD, then you are also blind. I love DBZ, but the animation of DBZ in 480p just DOES NOT stand up to 720p OR 1080p theatrical quality animation. Not a matter of opinion, that is just fact.
Well I'm not blind. Perhaps I exaggerated a little bit, but I was not talking about the animation quality. I was comparing the image sharpness and definition, which in this case the Funi discs appear sharper. Not to say Innocence BR disc isn't razor sharp either. But then again, it seems the ps3 can make a sd dvd look very very sharp.
lost in thought wrote:I gotta' wonder if that expensive rig is compensating for something. :roll:
Nice remark. Really sheds light on whatever the hell you're alluding to. :roll:
Moving along, I notice you mention about bashing bootleg subtitles. We've done so with very good and valid reasoning to that effect; because when push comes to shove, they're terrible.


In most cases, yes, but until you can look me in the face and tell me the subs on the MI discs are horrible beyond comprehension and completely alter the storyline, then you have no ground to stand on.

As for the dub, uh, well, you act like this is something new. And, if you were aware of what lies beyond the curtain, you wouldn't be bashing it nearly as badly (nor in such a stupid manner) as you are. There have been worse jobs out there, and while it isn't fantastic, at least it isn't the Ocean dub.
I can't help but laugh at the fact that you're defending this embarrassment of a dub. I'm acting like this is something new? I don't make it a habit of watching English dubs in my anime, pal. Especially from DBZ. So of course it's something new to me. And I'm certainly glad I have the option to watch it in its original language. If the dub gets you off then so be it.
Now, about the audio, correct me if I am wrong; but I don't think Funimation can just snap their fingers and have the Japanese audio remixed in 5.1.
Hmm, that's strange....I'm not an audio technical guru, but if they managed to snap their fingers and get 5.1 DD mix between the English language audio and the Japanese background audio, why couldn't they have used the Japanese language track in place of the English one?
Finally, you're really touting your illegal acquisition of the show there. How's the admitted and celebrated theft from both companies treating you so far?
Listen pal, I'm not touting shit. I actually OWN the first 5 region 2 discs single and plan of collection ALL of them soon. But naturally cannot watch them since they contain so English subs. As for the MI dvds, for your information, I had someone burn them for me as a favor for FREE!!!! I didn't pay jack SHIT for them, and neither did he! He got them from friends and then burned them onto dvds. This was just a quick solution so can watch the entire show with decent English subs. I would never knowingly buy boots! So STFU and let the grownups talk since you obviously LOVE getting off on making blatant assumptions.

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Post by MarcFBR » Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:34 am

You may very well be the most inconsistant typist on the planet.

Getting the bootleg DVDs for free doesn't change that its bootlegs. (Forgetting the fact that despite your statement about not condoning buying bootlegs I never SAID you bought it, I just said you were TALKING about bootlegs on Daizex.)

As for lost's comments.

Pointing out hes alluding to something is pointless when he clearly purposely did it obviously.

Yes yes, talk up your bootleg subs all you want, I've seen MI DVDs before, feel free to believe whatever you wish.

Lost isn't defending the dub. The point being, there are very few people who know ANYTHING about anime who don't 'know what they are getting into' with the DBZ dub.

Why the japanese track isn't 5.1? Quite simple. Funi has all their masters from their actors. At best their japanese masters include 3 audio tracks (at best, I don't know, I'm just saying). Track 1- Japanese Voices, in mono. Track 2- Sound effects, in mono. Track 3- Music, in mono. The 5.1 mix in Funi's DBZ has always been half assed 5.1 at best. The movies were done a bit better, but then thats not a long TV show. It'd be nice to get the show in 5.1, but at some point it will be adding stuff that just isn't intended to be there (See the 5.1 mixes of Transformers G1, GI Joe, and numerous other shows that have 5.1 mixes with new sound effects because the old ones don't have the 'punch' for 5.1, an exception is Voltron, and that is because when they recorded the english audio 20 years ago the audio was 20 or 30 tracks)

The fact you told someone 'STFU' doesn't exactly paint yourself as the grownup in the argument.

Learn what you are talking about before you post, no one on AOD is buying your shit post either.

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Post by PrincessVegeta » Fri Jun 15, 2007 12:13 pm

Tanooki Kuribo wrote:Maybe I have a dirty mind but, the first thing I thought of when I saw that Vegeta image was...

Image

IAM SORRY!
Hehe I see what you did their :lol: Also to add onto that here's another image I noticed now that I'm almost at the end of this Season 2 boxset which seems even freakier in motion...

This image was from episode 69 where Bulma feels Goku and Ginu's power from afar, the shaking lasts for around 5 seconds each and each time bulma's face gets more and more lines removed from her... and in the final shaking scene before she falls over her face looks so priceless :lol:

Image

It seems that Vegeta kept true to his word and made shure that Bulma would pay for not giving him the Dragonball in her posession, but since Vegeta didn't want to fight her into giving it he decided to really let himself go on Bulma instead... no wonder Bulma was destined to give birth to Trunks and marry Vegeta afterwards :lol:
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