Does anybody actually think that DBZ got better post-Namek?

[thatdbzguy]

I have yet to find a single person who thought that DBZ got better after the Namek saga, or at least, stayed consistently good. Although I have met some people who like the Cell or Buu saga the best, they usually admit to that only being due to nostalgia.

Do you know someone who thought DBZ, like DB, just kept getting better? If so, what were their reasons?

[Kid Buu]

What is your obsession with what other people think of DBZ's quality?

And yes; I know people who prefer the Cell and Buu arcs over everything else. My friend prefers them because she really like Vegeta and Trunks.

[thatdbzguy]

What is your obsession with what other people think of DBZ's quality?

And yes; I know people who prefer the Cell and Buu arcs over everything else. My friend prefers them because she really like Vegeta and Trunks.

I'll just say that I'm too insecure to have my own opinions, and we'll leave it at that.

[InfernalVegito]

I don't have any sentiments regarding the overall quality of each arc. One day I might slightly prefer this arc and the other day that one, but this depends on my mood. To me everything is just Dragon Ball from the first to the last episode.

Are there things that I maybe dislike or could have been made differently perhaps? Sure but they don't stop me from liking the overall series nonetheless.

[goku the krump dancer]

@ThatDBZGuy

Do you/did you get picked on a lot for liking Dragon Ball? I'm sure all of us here have gotten a few weird looks once we hit a certain age and people found out that we were still into that "kids show" not that it was a secret for me anyway.. It happens we get over it, they get over it and everyones happy.

Funny thing is, the bullies that tormented you so, seemed to have rubbed off on you, because you demean everyone who thinks that despite its flaws Dragon Ball is still a damn good piece of entertainment.

I mean you didn't undermine anyone in this particular thread yet but you've done it a lot in the ones you engaged in but you've already been approached about it so.. uh.. yea.

Kanzenshuu is the place where you can take off your boring everyday trench coat and dance around in your DBZ Pajamas and we'll welcome you with open arms. No need to feel like a loner we ALL love DBZ too.

On Topic: I love all of Dragon Ball..

[B]

(oh my god)

Well, the Buu arc is great because it's the finale. It wouldn't have made a lot of sense if the story had continued and that arc is left as-is. Toriyama is in full-on fuck-this-shit-I'm-going-home parody mode. Everything in the DB series you could possibly complain about is lampooned. The outlandish power-ups and transformations find a way to reach greater heights with Super Saiyan 3 and Fusion. When Toriyama received fan reaction that the art was getting too angular, he made it more angular. Vegeta, a character who spent the majority of his screentime being difficult and selfish, learns to mellow out and ultimately saves the day with his thinking. Gohan's hidden potential, a character facet that served as an oft-used plot device, is completely ignored; Toriyama returns to his gag-comedy roots while simultaneously putting to bed the generic wet dream of Gohan being some kind of predestined hero. The Buu arc makes full acknowledgement that he's just a dork thrusted into outrageous situations. The Genki Dama managing to finally work is another testament to audience patience, and reinforces the idea that it's never been these characters' jobs to save the Earth; nobody is selfless here. And finally you've got the ending, left open-ended enough to let you know that while the story is over, these characters' lives don't just stop.

I don't really see how the Cell arc is vastly inferior or superior to the Freeza arc. I suppose the characters are dumber, but that's drama and true to who they all were at the time. Vegeta and Gohan need to be stupid here so they're better appreciated at their respective development climaxes in the Buu arc. I will say waiting for Goku to show up was so much less tedious in the Cell arc because you had mysteries going on. What are these strange things Bulma and Gohan found? Are the Androids getting close to Goku? Wait, No. 19 and 20 aren't the Androids that destroy the future? Then who are the Androids?! Who is this Cell guy?! In the Freeza arc, it was basically running back and forth with the Dragon Balls. The Ginyu Squad had to come in and liven things up.

So, I'd say yes, the series maintained roughly the same quality from that point on. It's nothing compared to Volumes 9-16 or DB episodes 29-148, though.

[Herms]

The Namek stuff is probably one of my least favorite parts of the manga overall. I think the android/Cell era is better in all ways, and the Boo arc is a lot more entertaining. But your mileage may vary.

[Gaffer Tape]

I'll just say that I'm too insecure to have my own opinions, and we'll leave it at that.

Okay, here's what I don't get. If what you say is true... well, we're a bunch of people who think Dragon Ball is great. If you have to follow the opinions of others, why aren't you falling in line with our opinions? Instead, you seem to be steadfastly arguing against almost everyone here, which seems very strong willed for someone who isn't even confident enough to form his own opinions. That's not me trying to call you out for not being sincere. I'm just saying: look at yourself! Maybe you're stronger than you think. Think for yourself! You will be a lot happier and a lot less stressed out if you stop worrying about what everyone else thinks.

I recently heard a pretty good quote, and while I can't quote it verbatim, I can paraphrase it: "We'd most likely stop worrying what other people think of us if we realized how seldom they do." The fact of the matter is, people are too busy thinking and worrying about their own lives and their own problems to give a crap about some guy's opinion on a kids' cartoon. And even if they did, you're the only one who has to live with yourself. The people you think are judging you aren't going to get any real benefit out of whether or not you're happy. Only you are.

Okay, I'm done.

[Kamiccolo9]

(oh my god)

Well, the Buu arc is great because it's the finale. It wouldn't have made a lot of sense if the story had continued and that arc is left as-is. Toriyama is in full-on fuck-this-shit-I'm-going-home parody mode. Everything in the DB series you could possibly complain about is lampooned. The outlandish power-ups and transformations find a way to reach greater heights with Super Saiyan 3 and Fusion. When Toriyama received fan reaction that the art was getting too angular, he made it more angular. Vegeta, a character who spent the majority of his screentime being difficult and selfish, learns to mellow out and ultimately saves the day with his thinking. Gohan's hidden potential, a character facet that served as an oft-used plot device, is completely ignored; Toriyama returns to his gag-comedy roots while simultaneously putting to bed the generic wet dream of Gohan being some kind of predestined hero. The Buu arc makes full acknowledgement that he's just a dork thrusted into outrageous situations. The Genki Dama managing to finally work is another testament to audience patience, and reinforces the idea that it's never been these characters' jobs to save the Earth; nobody is selfless here. And finally you've got the ending, left open-ended enough to let you know that while the story is over, these characters' lives don't just stop.

And this is why the Buu Arc is my favorite (tied with the 23rd Budokai) arc in the series. It's just so much fun. Seeing it for the first time, I had no idea what was going to happen next. Did Vegeta's sacrifice kill Buu? There's another level of Super Saiyan!? Gohan breaking the Z-Sword? The Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack? Gohan and Vegetto? I had no idea what was going to happen next. Personally, I preferred the anime ending with the party over the manga, but that's just me. The 25th Budokai epilogue was great, and left the series open-ended.

As I said in the other thread, Dragon Ball's goal was to entertain. I feel that the Buu Arc did the best job of this. It's so over the top and self-aware that I can't help but get caught up in it.

[Kid Buu]

The Namek stuff is probably one of my least favorite parts of the manga overall. .

Wait, this is something I want to hear elaborated!

Edit: Just did my research, but now I want to hear why you did not care for the Saiyan arc!

[NitroEX]

The Android/Cell arc was my favourite. There was plenty of interesting things happening to keep you entertained and everything culminated in a satisfying climax whereas with the Freeza arc I never felt there was one. You had a lot of tedious running around with Dragonballs, pointless Freeza transformations and in the end of it all Goku wins... kinda?

It's just not really worth all that build up. I'm going to rewatch it soon in Japanese so maybe that will affect my opinion of it but as of now it's always been that part of Z I glossed over. Also the dull green Namek backdrop get's old real fast.

[DBZAOTA482]

Well in fandom consensus, the Freeza Saga and Cell Saga go back and forth as being the peak of the series.

The Cell Saga (until the Cell Games) is actually my favorite Saga of Dragon Ball Z along with the Saiyan Saga. The Freeza Saga gets kind of boring and predictable once Freeza enters the fray, and the Majin Boo Saga is too long (among other things).

[rereboy]

I have yet to find a single person who thought that DBZ got better after the Namek saga, or at least, stayed consistently good. Although I have met some people who like the Cell or Buu saga the best, they usually admit to that only being due to nostalgia.

Do you know someone who thought DBZ, like DB, just kept getting better? If so, what were their reasons?

I do think that the Cell arc is the worst stretch of the series, but the Buu arc is significantly better and its even better than some stuff previous to the Cell arc.

[Ajay]

I'm not really a huge fan of Namek. I mean, I love Freeza, I love the greater focus on Vegeta but I don't find it all that entertaining overall. When it first aired, sure, it contained all the defining moments for the series but I don't think it holds up that well on rewatches.

My personal favourite has always been the Artificial Human arc. You get a nice balance of all the characters, a slightly more serious (albeit heavily borrowed) storyline and some of the greatest moments of the series! Trunks' arrival is just the absolute best.

I just love and still love all the twists and turns, the time travel theory (no matter how flawed/weak it may be) and how eerily sinister 17 and 18 are. The fact they're so sadistic whilst retaining very human qualities is just great. Vegeta's villainous days always felt a bit too camp - 'I'M EVIL BECAUSE I'M AN ARROGANT FUCKER'. These guys are just pure sadists in comparison - evil for the sake of evil.

I was always a bit upset that their arc seemed cut short by the introduction of Cell but hey ho, at least his arc's build up contains some good crossover as well as all the great Super Vegeta and Super Trunks stuff.

So yeah, I'd say it does definitely get better but I do feel like it declines massively throughout a lot of the Boo arc. Not in terms of overall quality really, just in terms of consistency. The writing was always the weakest in the Boo arc, I felt - from the extreme deus ex machina regarding how Dragon Balls work to all the power ups on power ups. It certainly has some of the more awesome fights and emotional moments but I'm not the greatest fan ever of it.

With that said, it's been a while since I actually watched it through. I'm more familiar with the manga section of that arc and with all the action that takes place, I do wonder if my opinion would change from the benefits of motion.

[thatdbzguy]

If you have to follow the opinions of others, why aren't you falling in line with our opinions?

Because Kanzenshuu supports the minority opinions. The Cell saga sucks/is the worst saga, Gohan is only likable in the Buu arc, Perfect Cell is a terrible villain, etc.

[Kuwabara]

I do think that the Cell arc is the worst stretch of the series, but the Buu arc is significantly better and its even better than some stuff previous to the Cell arc.

This is a fascinating post, I've re-read it a dozen times now.

[VegettoEX]

If you have to follow the opinions of others, why aren't you falling in line with our opinions?

Because Kanzenshuu supports the minority opinions. The Cell saga sucks/is the worst saga, Gohan is only likable in the Buu arc, Perfect Cell is a terrible villain, etc.

I don't even know what this means. The website itself has no stance on this stuff, within the forum community there is no hive mind, and even if there were, I don't see those three particular things tossed out often, if at all, especially in relation to other comments.

[rereboy]

I do think that the Cell arc is the worst stretch of the series, but the Buu arc is significantly better and its even better than some stuff previous to the Cell arc.

This is a fascinating post, I've re-read it a dozen times now.

Why? I like Dragon Ball's style and feel and Akira Toriyama's hand in it. The Cell arc is the most uncharacteristic portion of the series, where that style and feel is most absent. But the Buu arc has that style and feel back in full and I like it at least as much as some of the stuff previous to the Cell arc.

I still like the Cell arc, but its definitely my least favorite. Especially after Cell turns perfect... Up until then, at least the arc had left us guessing and the eerie feeling of Cell and the threat of the androids was actually good... But once Cell turns perfect, there's no android threat anymore and Cell is no longer eerie. In fact he no longer even knows what to do now that he has achieved his goal... so he organizes a tournament to prove how "badass" he is, him against anyone... Okay... And Gohan's personality and hesitation in the Cell games seems contrived and seems to exist just to add artificial tension and drama. Even Goku's decision to stay in the afterlife and telling them to not think of a way to revive him seems to suffer from this, we feel that its an unnatural way to create more drama.

Also, many fans criticize the Buu arc for its plotholes, but, honestly, the Cell arc also has plenty. At least in the Buu arc, the positives and the return of the Toriyama feel and fun counteract the existence of plotholes and make them less meaningful. In the Cell arc, that has a much serious nature and tries to build itself on a much more actual serious drama feeling, they stand out way more.

[thatdbzguy]

I do think that the Cell arc is the worst stretch of the series, but the Buu arc is significantly better and its even better than some stuff previous to the Cell arc.

This is a fascinating post, I've re-read it a dozen times now.

Why? I like Dragon Ball's style and feel and Akira Toriyama's hand in it. The Cell arc is the most uncharacteristic portion of the series, where that style and feel is most absent. But the Buu arc has that style and feel back in full and I like it at least as much as some of the stuff previous to the Cell arc.

I still like the Cell arc, but its definitely my least favorite. Especially after Cell turns perfect... Up until then, at least the arc had left us guessing and the eerie feeling of Cell and the threat of the androids was actually good... But once Cell turns perfect, there's no android threat anymore and Cell is no longer eerie. In fact he no longer even knows what to do now that he has achieved his goal... so he organizes a tournament to prove how "badass" he is, him against anyone... Okay... And Gohan's personality and hesitation in the Cell games seems contrived and seems to exist just to add artificial tension and drama. Even Goku's decision to stay in the afterlife and telling them to not think of a way to revive him seems to suffer from this, we feel that its an unnatural way to create more drama.

Also, many fans criticize the Buu arc for its plotholes, but, honestly, the Cell arc also has plenty. At least in the Buu arc, the positives and the return of the Toriyama feel and fun counteract the existence of plotholes and make them less meaningful. In the Cell arc, that has a much serious nature and tries to build itself on a much more actual serious drama feeling, they stand out way more.

This is why I stopped liking the Cell saga. Used to be my favorite saga, actually. But the more intelligent DBZ fans think its the worst, so I just can't bring myself to like it.

I cannot defend any of its flaws that the more intelligent fans point out, so why bother praising it?

[thatdbzguy]

If you have to follow the opinions of others, why aren't you falling in line with our opinions?

Because Kanzenshuu supports the minority opinions. The Cell saga sucks/is the worst saga, Gohan is only likable in the Buu arc, Perfect Cell is a terrible villain, etc.

I don't even know what this means. The website itself has no stance on this stuff, within the forum community there is no hive mind, and even if there were, I don't see those three particular things tossed out often, if at all, especially in relation to other comments.

I mean that when you take in the opinions of all the users hear at Kanzenshuu, the majority of them go against what most outside of Kanzenshuu think.

But at the same time, everybody here is more intelligent than the average DBZ fan, so their opinions have more merit because they have detailed reasons as to why they feel a certain way about something.

If intelligent people don't like something and provide good reasons that I can't refute, then why should I keep liking what they don't? All that does is make me dumber.