Steve Simmons and his DB franchise Subtitles.

[GTx10]

First off who exactly is Steve Simmons and why is he a fan favorite?

Many Super Sentai/Power Rangers forums frequently discuss fan sub's and why these teams use or don't use Japanese terms. For example Simmons leaves in the suffixes Kun, Sama, and etc. Are these needed? What do you think? Should Kami-Sama be simply translated as God? It would help the narrative flow better I believe. Is Beers-Sama better than Lord Beers?
Piccolo-Daimao better than Great Demon King Piccolo? Is It merely a space (on the screen) saver? Tell me what you think.

I would rather have the character "Kami-Sama" translated as "God" or "Lord God". We all know the Namekian isn't the Judo/Islam/Christian god so that wouldn't be a issue. That is one example out of many but I'm all for "full translations" when applicable.

[Adamant]

It's quite important to keep in mind that as far as toku go, "fansubs that translate shit properly" were made as an alternative to horrendously obnoxious fansubs that left every other word in Japanese and mistranslated tons of stuff.
For Dragonball, however, we got "subtitles that actually represent what's being said" as an alternative to obnoxiously rewritten and localized dubs that made crap up constantly.

Context is everything. Both are examples of a superior alternative that did the material justice, unlike what was currently available.

[Ajay]

Steve Simmons is someone who went by 'Daimao' online. He used to run a fairly popular fansite for the series, as such, he's someone fans trust to know what he's doing. He knows the series like the back of his hand, and he's a fan like all of us.

Honorific appropriateness tends to vary from series to series. Sometimes you lose out on a little bit of that relationship context when you omit them. Bulma referring to Goku as "Son-kun", even as they grow up, holds context that probably wouldn't be translatable otherwise.

"Kami-sama" is a strange one. I'd prefer to see it translated as "God", since that's literally all it means, but then you have to wonder where to stop. Do you then translate "Kaio" as "Lord of Worlds"? If you retain "Kaioshin" instead of "God King of the Worlds", should you keep "Hakaishin" instead of "God of Destruction"? Maybe you just keep words invented for the series and translate everything that's a fairly standard Japanese term? It depends on what you feel like doing as a translator. There's not really any definitive answer for that.

Personally, I like to mix and match. "Hakaishin" has a perfectly fine English translation, but I'd rather leave it untranslated since I feel it gels nicer with the other gods' names that end in -shin.

In general, Simmons prefers a more literal approach to translation, whereas you'll find some translators on this site prefer to give a more natural English line. Again, it's all preference.

[GTx10]

It's quite important to keep in mind that as far as toku go, "fansubs that translate shit properly" were made as an alternative to horrendously obnoxious fansubs that left every other word in Japanese and mistranslated tons of stuff.
For Dragonball, however, we got "subtitles that actually represent what's being said" as an alternative to obnoxiously rewritten and localized dubs that made crap up constantly.

Context is everything. Both are examples of a superior alternative that did the material justice, unlike what was currently available.

So your saying that if a character says for example "Ore wa Kami-Sama!" It should be translated / Transliterated as "I am Kami-Sama!" Instead of "I am God!" And/or "I am lord god!" ??? Using the mere example I just brought up.

Ajay, I like that idea of translating standard Japanese words while the shows made up terms get transliterated. (To some extent, I honestly I prefer "Saiyan" or "Saiya-Jin") But you do make a valid point.

[theoriginalbilis]

I think the reason a lot of us here enjoy Simmons' work is because back in the good/bad ol' days we had to deal with an inaccurate dub and inaccurate fansubs for years until he started doing work for FUNimation. This was more or less around the late '90s-very early 2000's.

Even though I agree that his translations are occasionally very literal; it's lightyears beyond what we had access to back in the day. With Simmon's translations, I know I'm not watching DragonBall Z in "How-They-Lied-O'-Vision."

[Adamant]

So your saying that if a character says for example "Ore wa Kami-Sama!" It should be translated / Transliterated as "I am Kami-Sama!" Instead of "I am God!" And/or "I am lord god!" ??? Using the mere example I just brought up.

No, I'm saying that it should be translated as "I am Kami-Sama!" instead of "Your father was a brilliant scientist".

Any objections to the wording of the first translation are nitpicky to the extreme when the previously available alternative was not just the second, but the second WITH the audio gone so you can't even hear the translation seems a bit off.

[MagicBox]

First off who exactly is Steve Simmons and why is he a fan favorite?

1.) He was a fan of the series before becoming its official translator. He knows these characters. He loves these characters. He knows all their speech quirks and personalities. And most importantly, he knows how to do right by them. It's reflected in his translation.

2.) He's good at his job. Whereas some translators will only give you the gist of what's being said, you can be certain that Simmons' translations give you as much context as possible. Every adjective, every pun, every speech quirk, every reference. You're never left with any concerns that what you're reading on the screen isn't what's being said.

And for the record, I prefer using "Kami-sama." Normally I'd have no problems just saying "God," but it's fun to read which characters use the "-sama" honorific and which ones don't (Piccolo, Garlic Junior, etc.).

[VegettoEX]

It's important to note that even Steve would probably do things differently in his subtitle translation tracks if he started them fresh in 2015 versus how they started in 2000. The expectations for fans (and specifically who those of us were) back in 2000 was one thing, and it might be totally different now.

I know I'd have anywhere between (roughly guessing) 25-30-ish percentage of a difference in name spellings and conventions versus what I used back then. Much of it is already reflected in the Kanzenshuu style guide, but man... to start over fresh...

[Herms]

"Kami-sama" is a strange one. I'd prefer to see it translated as "God", since that's literally all it means, but then you have to wonder where to stop. Do you then translate "Kaio" as "Lord of Worlds"? If you retain "Kaioshin" instead of "God King of the Worlds", should you keep "Hakaishin" instead of "God of Destruction"? Maybe you just keep words invented for the series and translate everything that's a fairly standard Japanese term? It depends on what you feel like doing as a translator. There's not really any definitive answer for that.

For me, the key factor is that "Kami" is a common Japanese word that any Japanese person is automatically going to be familiar with, even if DB has a very personal and eccentric spin on it. In contrast, "Kaio" and "Kaioshin" are both terms made up by Toriyama for DB, and would only be familiar to people with some knowledge of DB (of course, at this point Japanese people without at least a bit of familiarity with DB are probably few and far between). "Hakaishin" isn't remotely so common as "Kami", but it's still a pre-existing word used to describe destructive gods both in mythology/religion and modern fantasy series. It's something which even a person with no knowledge of DB could potentially recognize, unlike Kaio or Kaioshin, which are series-exclusive jargon along the lines of "Super Saiyan" or "Genki-Dama". That doesn't automatically mean you have to translate one group while not translating the other, but there's a natural line in the sand between the two groups. Treating them differently isn't an arbitrary distinction.

[TripleRach]

I used to be very pro-honorifics. You can probably find plenty of old posts of mine arguing in favor of it. But a few years ago or so, I fell out of love with the concept. My current philosophy is that a good English translation should sound like it was natively written or spoken in English. Accuracy doesn't mean you have to make a documentary about the Japanese dialogue, although that is an interesting concept if you're a superfan who wants to know all those little details.

"Kami-sama" is a strange one. I'd prefer to see it translated as "God", since that's literally all it means, but then you have to wonder where to stop. Do you then translate "Kaio" as "Lord of Worlds"? If you retain "Kaioshin" instead of "God King of the Worlds", should you keep "Hakaishin" instead of "God of Destruction"? Maybe you just keep words invented for the series and translate everything that's a fairly standard Japanese term? It depends on what you feel like doing as a translator. There's not really any definitive answer for that.

I used to like leaving "Kami" and "Daimaou" untranslated, mainly because I didn't want to translate "Kaiou" and "Kaioushin" too. But I feel the opposite now. They're straightforward terms with obvious meanings in Japanese, but in English "Kami" and "Kaiou" are just a bunch of letters.

[B]

I remember reading that there were a few differences in how Simmons approached Z and what he did with the Kai subtitles. Does anybody remember/know about that? Or is it something as simple as "It's the same line as in Z, but the character says it differently"?

[Deathbringer]

Does Steve Simmons do the subtitles for any of the home releases like the funi dragon boxes?

[Gaffer Tape]

He's done the subtitles for ALL of FUNimation's home releases of the Dragon Ball Z franchise.

He did not do the subtitles for the original DB series home releases (that was Clyde Mandelin), nor did he do them for the Pioneer releases of the first three Z movies.

[Ajay]

Here's something interesting I found in a topic about FUNimation moving away from honorifics. Posted by Mr. Simmons himself, here's some insight using Fullmetal Alchemist as an example.:

I don't assume this is a change of policy. I'm guessing this is a choice left up to the individual subtitle script translators and writers. Otherwise future subtitle tracks for series that already use honorifics might change to not using them and that would cause inconsistency and I don't believe they are going to do that.

Actually, there was a bit of a shift in policy a couple of years back or so. The DVD department (for which we translators work) made an effort to standardize the use of honorifics for all of the translators. This has had the effect of discouraging the use of honorifics in some situations and settings, while allowing them in others. While it's not a blanket policy, there are some clear guidelines that have been set forth.

Let's take Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood as an example (something I'm familiar with). The show doesn't rely on honorifics in particular for its storytelling. It is set in Amestris, where the characters don't (presumably) speak Japanese, but some other local language. In the rare instance that you hear, say, a "Winry-chan," it's more likely that it would be conspicuous by its absence to the Japanese ear if it were not there, rather than being integral to the plot in some way. In other words, it's there for the audience's sake, not the story's, and if the audience changes, bringing along the honorific doesn't make sense.

Similarly, there's no compelling reason not to have Al address Ed as "Brother," rather than "Nii-san." In cases like that, where there is an English equivalent, the guideline is to use the English, unless there's a specific reason not to (which is usually rare, but if it affects the storytelling, it can happen). Then you have terms like "Senpai" which are "right on the line" cases, and it's left up to the translator to decide how best to handle them. That sounds like what happened with "Natsuki" upthread.

"Big deal, Daimao, the examples above held for the first FMA series, as well." Okay fair point, but by the same token, some series are grandfathered in with the way their honorifics were handled previously. This is why they do appear in Dragon Ball Kai, as mentioned above. This was specifically requested of me, to keep things consistent with the previous releases.

If they have changed their policy or various individuals have decided not to use honorifics in subtitles, I'll say I agree with GWOtaku's sentiments that this is not an alarming development. I don't feel this taints the quality of their subtitles at all. Rather it could be considered an improvement if it leads to translating more translatable terms for the ease of understanding scenes.

That does seem to be the idea. And it isn't one-size-fits-all, either. A show set in Feudal Japan will be treated differently than, say, a Prohibition-era train murder mystery set in the US (okay, so Baccano was released before the policy shift, but the point remains). So while you will still see honorifics in FUNimation releases, expect them to be used more frugally, as well as more consistently from one series to another. As for concerns about having more than one translator do things differently within the same series, having more than one translator per show at all is the exception, rather than the rule, for exactly that reason. Too many chefs spoil the soup, and all that.

I have to wonder whether we would have honorifics in Kai had he not been specifically requested to include them for consistency's sake. Where does Dragon Ball fall in regards to these guidelines?

[GTx10]

I'll admit Honorifics don't bother me much. I like "Son-Kun" and "Goku-Sa." (Which begs the question, Chi-Chi doesn't call Son, "Goku" which would imply they are close. But rather "Goku-Sa." (I'm under the impression that when married, Japanese couples could drop honorifics to show that they are close) so are they close?)

Anyway. "Sama" doesn't bother me that much either, only some times. I do feel "Lord Beers" makes sense compared to "Beers-Sama." I would like to note that I enjoy Steve Simmons and Clyde Mandelin's subtitles for the Dragon Ball franchise. But their are little "sub choices" that bug me a little. Like in this scene for example:


(Subs by Clyde Mandelin)

The scene in question is when Shen Long (Eternal Dragon) revives Kuririn and the others and they are discussing Goku's training in the Upper realm. Roshi explains that "God" is training Son Goku! But the "effect" is "lost" if the viewer has no idea who or what "Kami-Sama" is! Its meant to be a big event! God of the Earth is training the world's hero!
Son Goku is being taught by Mr. Popo...Eh... I mean "God" himself! (Earlier in the series, when Yajirobe mocks Karin-Sama (Master Karin) for saying that "Kami-Sama" (God) exists, this moment is lost to the viewers because again, what is a "Kami-Sama"?! (I know what it means, I'm merely expressing a point)
I understand that by this argument, Kaio-Sama, and many, many others would have to follow this example. But would that be bad? A mouthful sure, but the English version Manga goes for this approach. This argument doesn't merely effect names, but attack names and item names as well.


(Subs by Steve Simmons)

DB Wiki translates "Kinto Un" as Somersault Cloud". Now Simmons gave a translation note for "Roga Fu-Fu Ken" which was "Wolf Fang Gale Fist." So the question becomes, "why didn't "Kinto Un" get a translation note? Had I not looked it up on the wiki I would've never known what "Kinto Un" meant!
In cases like this I wouldn't have minded the following options:

"Come to me Somersault Cloud!" Or "Come to me Kinto Un! (Somersault Cloud)"

"The one training Son Goku is...God/god!" Or "The one training Son Goku is...God-Sama!" Or "The one training Son Goku is Kami-Sama! (God)

Considering Mr. Simmons is encouraged to use English terms if their is indeed a equivalent than "God" for "Kami-Sama" is acceptable. (Consider this, he translated "Kami-Sama" when it wasn't used in relation to the Namekian.) I am merely pointing out options these two translators could've invoked. (The subtitles are superb otherwise)
I'm left wondering, where characters praying/wishing to God (another being entirely) or to the Namekian? (Due to their lack of understanding the role of Earth's God)
(The pictures where taken from my own personal DB DVD collection)

[Herms]

DB Wiki translates "Kinto Un" as Somersault Cloud". Now Simmons gave a translation note for "Roga Fu-Fu Ken" which was "Wolf Fang Gale Fist." So the question becomes, "why didn't "Kinto Un" get a translation note? Had I not looked it up on the wiki I would've never known what "Kinto Un" meant!
In cases like this I wouldn't have minded the following options:

"Come to me Somersault Cloud!" Or "Come to me Kinto Un! (Somersault Cloud)"

"Kinto-un" is extra tricky because it's one of the names that originates from Journey to the West, meaning it's a Chinese name that's been adopted into Japanese. So 筋斗/Kintou isn't the standard Japanese word for "somersault", and Japanese readers would probably be familiar with it primary from the name of the Monkey King's cloud. It's somewhat similar to how loads of English speakers are familiar with the word "Cyclops", but comparatively few know that it means "Wheel Eye". For most, it's just the name of a thing from mythology.

On that note, in English you can't swing a dead cat without hitting an untranslated foreign term: Al Qaeda, the Krelmin, Mahatma, guru, roshi (even before the Funi dub), rickshaw (stretching a bit), shah, etc etc. Words like "messiah" or "Satan" which you wouldn't think twice about only exist in English because people centuries back couldn't be bothered to translate the Hebrew words for "anointed" and "adversary". Not to be too blasphemous, but "Piccolo Daimao" and "Jesus Christ" follow exactly the same pattern of "proper name + untranslated foreign language title" (fun fact: Christ=Messiah=Anointed). What I'm saying is, it's not just crappy fansubbers doing this kind of stuff. Even when people can translate a term easily enough, sometimes they just...don't. For one reason or another. Or sometimes no real reason. It's part of how language works.

[DragonDuck]

About Kinto-un, some languages like German and Danish opted to use the Chinese term, Jindujun, for the cloud, which would probably be familliar to those who had read Journey to the West. It's still tricky, though, because if you went with Jindujun for the cloud, would you have to translate Son Goku as Son Wuukong? The previously mentioned Danish and German translations didn't do so, though.

[sailorspazz]

I remember reading that there were a few differences in how Simmons approached Z and what he did with the Kai subtitles. Does anybody remember/know about that? Or is it something as simple as "It's the same line as in Z, but the character says it differently"?

I remember one time I watched the same scene in DBZ and Kai back to back to compare a voice actor's performance, and noticed that the wording in the subtitles was different between the versions. The Z version was very literal and kind of awkwardly phrased, while the Kai version was more free-flowing and natural sounding. I can't remember offhand what exact word choices were made, but personally I think the move away from being too literal is a good thing because...

I used to be very pro-honorifics. You can probably find plenty of old posts of mine arguing in favor of it. But a few years ago or so, I fell out of love with the concept. My current philosophy is that a good English translation should sound like it was natively written or spoken in English. Accuracy doesn't mean you have to make a documentary about the Japanese dialogue, although that is an interesting concept if you're a superfan who wants to know all those little details.

...yeah, I've come to feel the exact same way about translation. Japanese is very different from English in many respects, and if you get too caught up in trying to convey every single concept that doesn't translate well (the honorifics, the pronouns, the sentence endings, the etc.), the translation can get bogged down in things that, though they might be of interest to certain viewers, are ultimately not adding much to the viewer's experience by being left untranslated.

I'd say for Dragon Ball, the use of untranslated honorifics is not really necessary. It's not like they really come up as a plot point; this isn't some high school romance where there's drama revolving around a girl switching from calling a boy Lastname-san to Firstname-kun. It's aliens punching each other in the face. For this kind of series, I'd translate the ones that have easy equivalents, and drop the ones that don't.

As for series terminology, I agree with those who said it's best to translate regular Japanese terms (like Kami-sama), but leave the terms made up for the series (like Kaioushin) in Japanese. Maybe when they first come up, put a note about what they mean so the viewer has some idea of what their title actually says about them. Because, ultimately, the point of translating something is to make it comprehensible to viewers who are unfamiliar with the original language.

[Metalwario64]

I remember reading that there were a few differences in how Simmons approached Z and what he did with the Kai subtitles. Does anybody remember/know about that? Or is it something as simple as "It's the same line as in Z, but the character says it differently"?

I remember one time I watched the same scene in DBZ and Kai back to back to compare a voice actor's performance, and noticed that the wording in the subtitles was different between the versions. The Z version was very literal and kind of awkwardly phrased, while the Kai version was more free-flowing and natural sounding. I can't remember offhand what exact word choices were made, but personally I think the move away from being too literal is a good thing because...

It's been brought up in another thread (and one a year ago or so), but here are a couple of big examples of different choices in translations:

One example is Goku telling Vegeta in the Z translation that he's gonna "give Vegeta his fill of the Genki Dama", but his Kai translation is that he's gonna "force the Genki Dama right down his throat".

The other, is when Freeza uses his chasing disc attack on Goku, and Goku tells him that he's resorted to a "Bush-league move". In his Z subs, he translated it as "a petty technique".

The latter may be too liberal a translation, but I think the former, and the overall translation is much more natural feeling, and I overall prefer it. It's just a shame that Kai isn't as good in Japanese in Z.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I apologize for assuming things Topic Creator but I have to ask, you arent a Over Time(Toku Fan Sub Group that tries to translate and localize everything) fan that REALLY dislikes TV Nihon's (YATSU KISAMA TACHI. approach? Dont worry, I am IN NO WAY pro TV Nihon but I have seen lately that Over Time fans really hate and malign every translation not made by Over Time and or not in their style. I'm not saying you are one of them. But this rather recent faction is extremely vocal and can get rather nasty,even more than weaboo fans.

I do massively agree that some terms HAVE to be translated for them to work. Like Kami Sama. At least in the scene you mentioned. I'm not pro overtime but rather Pro Miss Dream. I do like some honorifics keeping though.