Episode #0115 (10 February 2008)

[El Diabeetus]

I think we need to reiterate once again that this is a touchy subject for the American industry, the Japanese industry, and fans from all walks of life and ideology.

I'll admit that it would seem I'm not doing a good enough job moderating the conversation. On the flip-side, those actively involved in the conversation aren't doing a good enough job keeping their emotions in check. We all need to work together to create a coherent conversation.

No-one's "ganging up" on anyone else. Since we're at the point where only three people are involved in the conversation, and one person seems to have a dissenting opinion, it probably appears (and feels) that way, though.

Dogasu: Both myself and desirecampbell are saying that we're not understanding your thoughts. You may feel like you're explaining them, backing them up, etc... but it seems like we're still not understanding the "why" behind it all. Don't misunderstand; at least personally, I "get" the "what" portion of what you're saying. I'm still not reading or hearing the "why" portion, though. Any "why" that you've brought up seems to still be lacking full persuasion. Also, just because you may be met with childishness, don't respond with it. Additionally, posting to say you're dropping the conversation doesn't help you look any better, and it doesn't help your case. Imagine if you were on the other end, and how that kind of post would appear to you.

desirecampbell: You need to do a better job of not letting logic come across as complete arrogance. Not everyone's going to respond the same way. I'm not saying "sugar-coat" what you post... in fact, I don't really know what to say, but you probably can see which wheels are turning in my head to get certain ideas across. Know what I mean? Also, you need to watch that arrogance; don't let that childishness come out when you get frustrated. I've seen it time and time again with your conversations and arguments; you don't give enough time for people to respond to your claims and requests, and get eternally frustrated (with the appearance of complete self-conceit) when these aren't met.

Everyone Else: Please contribute. This is a discussion that's literally about shaping our fandom and its future.

I could very well be reading you all completely wrong, but that's part of my job. I do thank everyone for leaving their thoughts.

Hmm, I think that if it's because of Fansubs and things like that, the little 12 year old Naruto fan should have to pay money for to watch Fansubs and some of the Money should go to Viz and the rest to the Japanese producers so those companies wouldn't get screwed cause of a bunch of stupid fans that can't wait for it to be released here.

I just hope the Domestic Anime industry or the Japanese Anime industry doesn't die because some fans aren't going/willing to buy a product when it's clearly decent and not crappy. Like if I watch a Fansub or see a video on YouTube. Whenever I can, I try and buy the actual product so I don't feel like I'm getting away with watching something I didn't pay for and a Company put a lot of hard work into it.

If I have anymore thoughts; I'll post them up here.

[desirecampbell]

[a bunch of stuff that didn't explain his argument at all.]

Dogasu, I'm sorry that you've taken offense to what I've said, and, again, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings; but you've really got to start explaining yourself. Please believe me here, I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from.

Y'know, there's a reason I put the word good in quotation marks. It's because I recognize that the concept of a "good" anime release is extremely subjective and is something that's different for everyone. It would be incredibly arrogant of me to pose as some kind of "authoritative figure" on what counts as a good release and what doesn't, which is exactly why I don't do that.

So, what exactly are we arguing about? Letting everyone decide for themselves what is "good" is exactly what I've been saying.

We're saying the same thing, Dogasu - except that I acknowledge that different people will place different value on the different specifics of the release - while you are saying that 'any fan who doesn't buy DVDs that I think are good, are killing the industry'.

Are we in agreement then?


Re: Mike - yeah, I come off as arrogant a lot, I don't mean to be mean, I'm just trying to point out flaws in arguments. Again, I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad about themselves - and frankly I shouldn't be able to anyway, if your position is well-supported you'll (general "you'll") be able to respond without offense. If, for example, I call you a hypocrite, you'd only get offended if you actually were being hypocritical. If you weren't being hypocritical, you could just point that out, and I'd look like a jackass. Again, not trying to be mean, if you're taken aback by my comments, well *nudge*nudge*wink*wink* maybe there's a reason.


And I too would love to see anybody else put in something.

[El Diabeetus]

I think we need to reiterate once again that this is a touchy subject for the American industry, the Japanese industry, and fans from all walks of life and ideology.

I'll admit that it would seem I'm not doing a good enough job moderating the conversation. On the flip-side, those actively involved in the conversation aren't doing a good enough job keeping their emotions in check. We all need to work together to create a coherent conversation.

No-one's "ganging up" on anyone else. Since we're at the point where only three people are involved in the conversation, and one person seems to have a dissenting opinion, it probably appears (and feels) that way, though.

Dogasu: Both myself and desirecampbell are saying that we're not understanding your thoughts. You may feel like you're explaining them, backing them up, etc... but it seems like we're still not understanding the "why" behind it all. Don't misunderstand; at least personally, I "get" the "what" portion of what you're saying. I'm still not reading or hearing the "why" portion, though. Any "why" that you've brought up seems to still be lacking full persuasion. Also, just because you may be met with childishness, don't respond with it. Additionally, posting to say you're dropping the conversation doesn't help you look any better, and it doesn't help your case. Imagine if you were on the other end, and how that kind of post would appear to you.

desirecampbell: You need to do a better job of not letting logic come across as complete arrogance. Not everyone's going to respond the same way. I'm not saying "sugar-coat" what you post... in fact, I don't really know what to say, but you probably can see which wheels are turning in my head to get certain ideas across. Know what I mean? Also, you need to watch that arrogance; don't let that childishness come out when you get frustrated. I've seen it time and time again with your conversations and arguments; you don't give enough time for people to respond to your claims and requests, and get eternally frustrated (with the appearance of complete self-conceit) when these aren't met.

Everyone Else: Please contribute. This is a discussion that's literally about shaping our fandom and its future.

I could very well be reading you all completely wrong, but that's part of my job. I do thank everyone for leaving their thoughts.

Hmm, I think that if it's because of Fansubs and things like that, the little 12 year old Naruto fan should have to pay money for to watch Fansubs and some of the Money should go to Viz and the rest to the Japanese producers so those companies wouldn't get screwed cause of a bunch of stupid fans that can't wait for it to be released here.

I just hope the Domestic Anime industry or the Japanese Anime industry doesn't die because some fans aren't going/willing to buy a product when it's clearly decent and not crappy. Like if I watch a Fansub or see a video on YouTube. Whenever I can, I try and buy the actual product so I don't feel like I'm getting away with watching something I didn't pay for and a Company put a lot of hard work into it.

If I have anymore thoughts; I'll post them up here.

I'm only 14 right now, so what I say might not matter, but when I get a job over the summer [at McDonalds (Till I can get a real job)] I'll start to buy more Anime the legit way but for now I'll have to ask my dad, and usually he gets me whatever I want because he's away all the time and feels sorry for My mom, brothers and I.

EDIT: Speak of the Devil, my dad asked me in a E-mail if there was anything I wanted.

[tarrin4ever]

Everyone Else: Please contribute. This is a discussion that's literally about shaping our fandom and its future.

I would, but I'm having a hell of a time figuring out what every one's stance is.

Also, I fail to see how this has to do with Dragonball anymore. It's not like people aren't buying enough orange bricks to keep the industry alive.

[Freeza93]

Everyone Else: Please contribute. This is a discussion that's literally about shaping our fandom and its future.

I would but i don't live in the U.S

But in the UK the we don't even get any advertisements for animé (unless Avatar is anime which it isn't but, HMV and Virgin seem to think so).

[VegettoEX]

I would but i don't live in the U.S

But in the UK the we don't even get any advertisements for animé (unless Avatar is anime which it isn't but, HMV and Virgin seem to think so).

The UK is an interesting off-shoot of this discussion regarding the American industry, though... since you pretty much just get all of our stuff later on down the road (with a few exceptions).

What's the feeling over there when it comes to the American industry (and specifically FUNimation)? Does anyone even care?

[Freeza93]

I would but i don't live in the U.S

But in the UK the we don't even get any advertisements for anime (unless Avatar is anime which it isn't but, HMV and Virgin seem to think so).

The UK is an interesting off-shoot of this discussion regarding the American industry, though... since you pretty much just get all of our stuff later on down the road (with a few exceptions).

What's the feeling over there when it comes to the American industry (and specifically FUNimation)? Does anyone even care?

I think I saw FUNimation, at an expo i went to, selling a shit load of Full metal Alchemist dvds.
Seems as we don't get any Dragonball DVDs with Japanese audio (let alone any dvds apart from the 4 badly dubbed ones), I like the new seasons boxsets because it's an easy way to own them legally. So for me, FUNimation did something good (apart from cropping it). We also never got any One piece DVDs, so another yay for FUNimation.
We have Naruto DVDs currently being released by "Jetix" ( a children's TV channel that shows Bobobo as well).
And Bee TV are releasing Gundam. (on another note Sky channel 199 are currently showing Gundam seed, hell yeah!)
So i hope FUNimation at least doesn't die or i might never own all of Dragonball or One piece.

[Kaboom]

We have Naruto DVDs currently being released by "Jetix" ( a children's TV channel that shows Bobobo as well).

I hear the TV-edited version of that is as bad or worse than 4Kids' edits to One Piece. Is that true?

[Freeza93]

We have Naruto DVDs currently being released by "Jetix" ( a children's TV channel that shows Bobobo as well).

I hear the TV-edited version of that is as bad or worse than 4Kids' edits to One Piece. Is that true?

What Naruto or Bobobo?

[Kaboom]

We have Naruto DVDs currently being released by "Jetix" ( a children's TV channel that shows Bobobo as well).

I hear the TV-edited version of that is as bad or worse than 4Kids' edits to One Piece. Is that true?

What Naruto or Bobobo?

I meant Naruto, sorry. I've heard horror stories about it.


Edits would probably only make Bo-Bobo better, actually.

[Freeza93]

I hear the TV-edited version of that is as bad or worse than 4Kids' edits to One Piece. Is that true?

What Naruto or Bobobo?

I meant Naruto, sorry. I've heard horror stories about it.


Edits would probably only make Bo-Bobo better, actually.

I haven't watched it in long time but it don't think there were to many edits because it was on after 9:00. But i will watch it when it is next on and report back on the bad choices made by the anime industry. (see i made it relevant!)

[Dogasu]

The attitudes I’m getting is that while the people who download fansubs without buying the DVDs aren’t helping the industry, they aren’t hurting it either. I obviously disagree with that statement. Like Brakus said at the beginning of the thread, there are some people who just won’t buy releases no matter how good the companies’ business models are. There seems to be a belief that apathy, even in these cases, isn’t hurting anything.

But if the fans were so apathetic, shows like Family Guy and Jericho wouldn’t still be on TV. The creators of these shows (especially in Family Guy’s case) have said so repeatedly. Same with the aforementioned second season of The Big O; it wouldn’t have existed at all if the fans hadn’t gotten the attention of Cartoon Network and Bandai. Yes, in all these cases, the companies had to get involved to actually fund these projects, but none of that would have happened if the fanbase wasn’t there, supporting these releases by buying the DVDs.

It seems quite clear that fans, with the proper motivation and planning, are capable of saving the shows they like. Yet it seems like the common thread of logic here is that while a show can be saved by fans, it can’t possibly be killed by them. It really seems like a case of people taking credit for anything good that happens but then pointing their fingers elsewhere whenever something bad happens, and it all seems very one-sided to me.

[caejones]

The impression I'm getting isn't that anyone's disagreeing so much as explaining things from different angles?

Clearly, what happens to the industry has to do with what its customers do and don't buy. So yeah, technically, the fans are "responsible" if the industry collapses if a majority of them don't support the companies that releasethe products they ... umm... endulge in?
But, from a business perspective, you can't blame the consumer for what happens--business is oriented around getting te consumer to buy, so in a business context everything falls onto the shoulders of the members of the business to make the consumers "do their part", so to speak.
So if no one's buying stuff, then they contribute to the fall of the business--but from a business perspective, it's the responsibility of the business to change to make the consumers change.

Umm... I don't even know what that was. I guess I see it as more that both sides are right, just from a different position.
If you want to reverse it, you could say that the fans are actually the "business", and the anime industry is the consumer (that pays the fans with products in exchange for money). If you reverse it like that, then the responsibility is only on the fans.

So... I think it's more a "frame of reference" sort of thing. I want to make an analogy, but it'd probably suck.

... Jettix? I seriously missed the transition phase here, but wasn't Jettix originally a "action oriented" block ran by Disney on Toon Disney and ABC Family? (which was discontinued back in... 2006?). I've read about Jettix in the UK before now as well, and... umm... I don't know what's going on.
(... all I know is that Jettix hosted Power Rangers: enerations, and I'd not mind if that still aired somewhere I could access. )

[Freeza93]

... Jettix? I seriously missed the transition phase here, but wasn't Jettix originally a "action oriented" block ran by Disney on Toon Disney and ABC Family? (which was discontinued back in... 2006?). I've read about Jettix in the UK before now as well, and... umm... I don't know what's going on.
(... all I know is that Jettix hosted Power Rangers: enerations, and I'd not mind if that still aired somewhere I could access. )

It replaced the Fox Kids channel and is still kind of action oriented and about half the shows it airs are Power Rangers.

[Brakus]

After attending the "Fansubs, the industry, and YOU" panel at Katsucon this past weekend, I now have some respect for the small but vocal crowd that were always upset that DBZ was never released how *they* wanted it. I may disagree with them on many aspects, but I cannot deny their contribution to how DBZ is being released now, with the Season Box Sets, the re-release of the TV Specials, and the eventual re-release of the movies. We have then now thanks to FUNi working around whatever mandates Toei has put out and considering *some* input from many fans about the product.

On a forum like this it may sound like the same five people complain, but yes, other people do complain, and it might even be more than five. The point is, they were loud enough and consistent enough such that DBZ (and perhaps other anime series) were released/re-released more ideally to how they should have been done in the first place. As I mentioned elsewhere before, I really do think the companies do listen to the fans, and the Japanese are slowly warming up to the fact that the American fans have some significance in how to release anime in the States.

So I might disagree with you on many points. It doesn't mean that I don't necessarily respect you. Without you, this forum (or even this website as we know it) would not exist.

[SaiyaJedi]

I hear the TV-edited version of that is as bad or worse than 4Kids' edits to One Piece. Is that true?

What Naruto or Bobobo?

I meant Naruto, sorry. I've heard horror stories about it.

Those "horror stories" are pure myth; the Naruto dub has always been tolerable, and at times, extremely good, even in its edited-for-TV incarnation. Fans of Naruto, however, have distilled to an art form the practice of bitching about minutiae no one else would give a moment's thought. Seriously.... "as bad or worse" than the 4Kids dub of One Piece? Are they joking? 'Cause if they aren't, it's just sad.

Actually, that reminds me of the Naruto-shipping yaoi fangirl who was in the same dorm as me during my freshman year of college. She declared the Naruto dub a "disaster" with the first episode because it took out all the "homoerotic subtext" between Naruto and Sasuke. So you can imagine how I regard those who make similar claims about the show's English dub.

[NeptuneKai]

What Naruto or Bobobo?

I meant Naruto, sorry. I've heard horror stories about it.

Those "horror stories" are pure myth; the Naruto dub has always been tolerable, and at times, extremely good, even in its edited-for-TV incarnation. Fans of Naruto, however, have distilled to an art form the practice of bitching about minutiae no one else would give a moment's thought. Seriously.... "as bad or worse" than the 4Kids dub of One Piece? Are they joking? 'Cause if they aren't, it's just sad.

Actually, that reminds me of the Naruto-shipping yaoi fangirl who was in the same dorm as me during my freshman year of college. She declared the Naruto dub a "disaster" with the first episode because it took out all the "homoerotic subtext" between Naruto and Sasuke. So you can imagine how I regard those who make similar claims about the show's English dub.

Oh y'know that fills me with nerd rage. The Naruto dub is pretty much uncensored and unchanged from its Japanese counter part. The voices all fit the characters and the shows dubbing company actually listens to the fans suggestions. More often then not the English dialogue matches the Japanese dialogue almost exactly. It's nowhere near as bad as 4kids OP dub or hell even Funi's DBZ dub. This is coming from a person who hates Naruto, it has one hell of a dub.

[Kaboom]

No, no, no, no, no...You misunderstood. I'm the last person you need to tell that the Naruto dub is great. I was referring to the fact that in the UK, Jetix, the station it airs on, chops it up a great deal to fit the much stricter standards. I've seen video clips of things like Zabuza's sword having it's entire blade removed and looking like some sort of pimp-cane, to horribly-done zoom-ins on characters faces or cutting away to repeated footage all to cover up impacts or action, and all kinds of other crap. I'll try to find some videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8x0ONXcyFuI&NR=1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xeZBP2L7 ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdgEUkbd ... re=related

I know perfectly well the broadcast dub in the US is spectacular. I watched it every week (until the filler hell started). The narutards complaining about it ticks me off.