Kanzenshuu

The logic would be that his Blue at that point had surpassed his UI Sign.

I understand your assumption is that's improbable, but so are a lot of series power jumps. At least with the Saiyans, they have a built in BS creep with their race gaining power in real time through fighting.

For ...

For example, Vegeta's SSBE nearly catching up to full power Granolah after a few minutes of fighting. That's a same-arc example of the saiyans' power level drastically increasing in a very short amount of time, without a transformation.

Not a great example, given that's exaggerating what ...

It would be a closer match, but Jiren was like two or three steps ahead of Goku back then. I think it would be more credible that Goku could match his UI Sign level from that arc. And I’m not sure if even that would be possible either.

Do you see UI Sign Goku from the tournament transported ...

SSJB Goku from the end of the Granolah Arc

vs.

Jiren from the ToP

Can Goku's improvements and his addition of UI to Blue overcome Jiren?


I'd say so, as long as Jiren isn't retconned to still be above everybody, that is.

SSB Goku was trading blows with Gas, he was surviving, sure, not ...

Could Goku using his Blue form from the end of the Granolah saga (or currently) beat Jiren from the ToP?

It would be a closer match, but Jiren was like two or three steps ahead of Goku back then. I think it would be more credible that Goku could match his UI Sign level from that arc. And I’m ...

SSJB Goku from the end of the Granolah Arc

vs.

Jiren from the ToP

Can Goku's improvements and his addition of UI to Blue overcome Jiren?

Could Goku using his Blue form from the end of the Granolah saga (or currently) beat Jiren from the ToP?

I meant that by the ToP, their bases might rival the androids, but after the Moro and Granolah arc, their bases should be stronger than that since they trained and had better results.
To me it seemed that their gains were bigger in those two last arcs than in the previous ones, that's why I'm ...

Great post. I'm going to sprinkle in with accordance to my own preconceptions.


Gotcha.

I'd say it's always a tad below what the fandom might think. Take Piccolo vs Moro, for example. The main consensus was that Big Green was as strong as Gohan because they were working together, and then came ...

Very hard to say, and not just because there are two and maybe three continuities.

The anime treated them above Gotenks until the main stories landed, when they were somewhat above Namek Freeza. But for the filler scenes, they were above Super Buu, for sure. The god-ki powered base messed things ...

How strong are:

Current base Goku and Vegeta

Current Android 18

Current Uub

I think Base Goku could definitely pull off a similar trick to what Piccolo did against Frost. When he fought Frost’s third form, he initially seemed at a disadvantage but later admitted to starting slow. He didn’t really need to transform to SS1 against that form, he just wanted to wrap things up ...

Personally I don't see why Piccolo is that low after the Rosat at least in the anime Cell games he's shown moderately behind Trunks and Vegeta. While the manga doesn't show much of him in action, but paying close attention looks like he's still fighting on relative terms with the jrs. Not to ...

Sounds good. Only real hiccup is pre-ROF Piccolo since he's much weaker than a rusty SS Gohan in that arc. I guess you can handwave it as Gohan was just having difficulty accessing Super Saiyan, his battle power didn't decrease much from the Boo arc necessarily.

CG SS Gohan: 50
Boo arc SS ...

Seven years is definitely a long time, but I don’t think that alone is enough to assume Piccolo reached Cell Junior level by the Boo arc. If we go by Daima, Piccolo is implied to be below Base Goku, which means he would have to be above a Cell Junior for that comparison to hold. That would also ...

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/ Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/ Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell ...

I’d question placing Piccolo (Boo arc) at Cell Junior level though. He wasn’t on Vegeta and Trunks’ level during the Cell Games, and while he trained for seven years, we have no direct feats suggesting he reached that high. Goten and Trunks being relative to Cell Jrs. in the Super manga makes it ...

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/ Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/ Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell ...

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/ Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/ Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games ...

Speaking to narrative again. The narrative thread was Shin, the Saiyans, and the readers all together realizing how insignificant he is compared to what we (and he) believed at first.

1) His shock at base vegeta's power, 2) the juxtaposition between his reaction to babidi's fighters and the ...