Kanzenshuu

I think Base Goku could definitely pull off a similar trick to what Piccolo did against Frost. When he fought Frost’s third form, he initially seemed at a disadvantage but later admitted to starting slow. He didn’t really need to transform to SS1 against that form, he just wanted to wrap things up ...

Personally I don't see why Piccolo is that low after the Rosat at least in the anime Cell games he's shown moderately behind Trunks and Vegeta. While the manga doesn't show much of him in action, but paying close attention looks like he's still fighting on relative terms with the jrs. Not to ...

Sounds good. Only real hiccup is pre-ROF Piccolo since he's much weaker than a rusty SS Gohan in that arc. I guess you can handwave it as Gohan was just having difficulty accessing Super Saiyan, his battle power didn't decrease much from the Boo arc necessarily.

CG SS Gohan: 50
Boo arc SS ...

Seven years is definitely a long time, but I don’t think that alone is enough to assume Piccolo reached Cell Junior level by the Boo arc. If we go by Daima, Piccolo is implied to be below Base Goku, which means he would have to be above a Cell Junior for that comparison to hold. That would also ...

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/ Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/ Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell ...

I’d question placing Piccolo (Boo arc) at Cell Junior level though. He wasn’t on Vegeta and Trunks’ level during the Cell Games, and while he trained for seven years, we have no direct feats suggesting he reached that high. Goten and Trunks being relative to Cell Jrs. in the Super manga makes it ...

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/ Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/ Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell ...

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/ Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/ Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games ...

Speaking to narrative again. The narrative thread was Shin, the Saiyans, and the readers all together realizing how insignificant he is compared to what we (and he) believed at first.

1) His shock at base vegeta's power, 2) the juxtaposition between his reaction to babidi's fighters and the ...

We can come up with all kinds of explanations for things in universe, but none of them pass the smell test for a writer who is just writing things.

And there's little rationale to Akira Toriyama presenting Shin in the Buu saga with the intention of him only being aware of Freeza's first form and ...

Also, by the time Vegeta trashed Frost, he had already had two extended battles with Goku and Piccolo. It wasn't exactly fresh on fresh.

U6 tournament Piccolo wasn't on the SSJ's level but was right below. How strong the SSJs were at that point compared to Z is up for debate.

Piccolo's not SSJ level in the buu saga but he's still way above base. Daima got that one wrong.

He's also much stronger than Shin, who only intimidated him because of his divine aura.

capsulecorp wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 2:24 pm

DBFanGuy wrote: Sun Jan 26, 2025 1:23 pm With these 5 powerhouses now on the scene is this the big clash that will end Super? Doesn’t seem like there is much time for some of these new forms to get more screen time.

Super is over my friend.

But the fanfic about it is going to be awesome.

From a narrative POV, what's the point of including this exchange if all it resulted in was Vegeta still being orders of magnitude weaker than Granolah? What would it matter?

I ask you guys to exercise narrative rationale when analyzing these things. Often the writer is just trying to get a ...

You can bridge a gap with the things you mentioned, but not in an extended, long one on one brawl with no deux ex machina. And I challenge you to produce another example of it.

In Super? There is plenty. In the same arc, we see Goku holding off Gas using Blue.


The battles are not the same ...

Adding Ultra Instinct to Goku’s Blue form in the Gas Arc likely makes it more competitive with ToP UI Sign Goku, but I doubt it surpasses it. Blue Goku gains a lot from integrating Ultra Instinct principles, but UI Sign and SSBE in the ToP were a significant leap.

Yes, they were a significant ...

So how strong was Gas arc Blue Goku?

Between the Moro arc and the Granolah/Gas arc, Goku's stated and seen to be extraordinarily stronger in Blue than he was in the ToP.

How strong do we think the Granolah clone was?

It’s unclear if Granolah arc Blue Goku exceeds Ultra Instinct Sign from ...

What happened with SSB vs Gas and Granola, clearly perfoming above its level, to me is due to the expertise and skill of the users vs. the lack of experience of the villains. Powerwise, the difference should be great but that gap is shortened because of the difference in talent.


Again, not ...

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I don't think anyone was reluctant to think Jiren was surpassed easily until Superhero. All thematic and narrative implications point toward Jiren still being a worthy opponent on par with Goku and Vegeta as of the recent arc, so whether we like it or not, they won't be able to defeat him using ...

After thinking back on it and looking at the chapters again, Goku and Vegeta made massive leaps in power for the Moro Arc and got stronger than that for the Granolah Arc. Angel Moro was stronger than LSS Broly. Granolah and Gas were stronger than Angel Moro. It's pretty clear in the manga. ToP ...