The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Yuji]

Kid Broly (DBS) on Vampa vs Kid Gohan (Saiyan arc)
M8 restrained SS Broly vs CG SS Gohan
DBS Ikari Broly vs ToP Ultimate Gohan

[Koitsukai]

Kid Broly (DBS) on Vampa vs Kid Gohan (Saiyan arc)
M8 restrained SS Broly vs CG SS Gohan
DBS Ikari Broly vs ToP Ultimate Gohan

1) Gohan was around 2k in that arc. Broly was said to be around 900-ish when Paragus found him? If Broly turns ohzaru, it's a done deal. I guess it depends on their personalities, Gohan was too scared to fight at first but by the end he was challenging Vegeta.
Maybe Broly was like that, too. Gohan has the edge just because he was somewhat trained, but he is not killing another child. Broly, on the other hand, probably is more likely to lose it, break his limits and kill his opponent.

2) SS Gohan was able to land a few blows on Perfect Cell, when he felt like fighting. Blue-haired Broly should be weaker. If Gohan knows he is stronger, he probably would not want to fight. It depends on his mood, although he wouldn't get bear-hugged like vs Cell. If the fight moves forward and they both unlock their full powers, Gohan takes it.

3) Anime Gohan loses. He wasn't quite on the level of the full blown SSB fighters like Toppo, level where Goku and Vegeta were. Broly wasn't either but his fight was much closer than Gohan vs Toppo. Manga Gohan fought a fusion, and would defeat Ikari Broly.

[Hugo Boss]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

I’d question placing Piccolo (Boo arc) at Cell Junior level though. He wasn’t on Vegeta and Trunks’ level during the Cell Games, and while he trained for seven years, we have no direct feats suggesting he reached that high. Goten and Trunks being relative to Cell Jrs. in the Super manga makes it even shakier to assume Piccolo (Boo arc) surpassed that threshold.

Throughout Super, Piccolo has been depicted as relative to Base Saiyans in most arcs. In RoF arc, he was clearly weaker than SS1 Gohan. In the U6 Tournament arc, he was portrayed as an equal to a retrained Base Gohan. During the Tournament of Power arc, he again fought on par with Gohan’s completed base form and Base Goku. The only exception might be the Super Hero arc, where he seemed to be above Base Gohan, although I’m not sure if we could say that he is above Base Goku and Vegeta.

If we assume Base Goku (Super Hero) isn’t beyond SS1 Goku (Cell Games), then Piccolo (Super Hero) wouldn’t scale beyond that level either.

Given these points, I’d say the rankings should be adjusted as follows:

1. Android 17/Piccolo (pre-RoS&T training) – No change.
2. Android 16/Imperfect Cell – No change.
3. Piccolo (post-RoS&T training) – No change.
4. 2nd Form Cell → Move Piccolo (Boo arc) to this tier, since there’s no direct evidence he surpassed it.
5. Super Vegeta → Move Piccolo (early Super) to this tier, since he was equal to retrained Base Gohan. He could be placed above in the subsequent arcs.
6. Cell Games Vegeta → Below Cell Juniors.
7. Cell Juniors → Should be above Cell Games Vegeta.
8. Cell Games Goku → Move Piccolo (Super Hero) to this tier, since he’s above Base Gohan, but not necessarily Base Goku/Vegeta.
9. Perfect Cell – No change.
10. Super Perfect Cell – No change.

[ZombieVito]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

2 things:

1) I like to think Piccolo at least surpassed 2nd form Cell by the end of his RoSaT trip. He held his own against the Cell Juniors decently after all.

2) Current Piccolo (I assume you mean ToP arc?) is far stronger than Cell. He's even stronger than Gotenks by episode 90.

Kid Broly (DBS) on Vampa vs Kid Gohan (Saiyan arc)
M8 restrained SS Broly vs CG SS Gohan
DBS Ikari Broly vs ToP Ultimate Gohan

Gohan is slightly stronger but Broly should be the better fighter. I give this to Broly.
Gohan one shots.
Broly wins this. He was on par with a Goku that was much stronger than Gohan by the end of the ToP.

[Super-Shenron]

Kid Broly (DBS) on Vampa vs Kid Gohan (Saiyan arc)
M8 restrained SS Broly vs CG SS Gohan
DBS Ikari Broly vs ToP Ultimate Gohan

1. Gohan one-shots with Masenko.

2. Gohan one-shots even harder. Broly's feats are comparable to that of Perfect Cell (vs Vegeta) at best, and Gohan should be far above that level.

3. This time Broly stomps. He fought on even footing with a Goku Blue much stronger than the one who matched Toppo, himself capable of tanking Gohan's Kamehameha.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

Personally I don't see why Piccolo is that low after the Rosat at least in the anime Cell games he's shown moderately behind Trunks and Vegeta. While the manga doesn't show much of him in action, but paying close attention looks like he's still fighting on relative terms with the jrs. Not to mention the art cover for the chapter kinda hinting where everyone scales at the time.

Secondly Idk how Piccolo can be that weak (Especially Moro arc) unless ur going with the manga route where Goku doesn't absorb SSG. I can't say too much overall about Super since I've been working on a Power level list for them for almost 2 years! (will be 2 this upcoming April).

[picc]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

Sounds good. Only real hiccup is pre-ROF Piccolo since he's much weaker than a rusty SS Gohan in that arc. I guess you can handwave it as Gohan was just having difficulty accessing Super Saiyan, his battle power didn't decrease much from the Boo arc necessarily.

CG SS Gohan: 50
Boo arc SS Gohan: 40
RF SS Gohan: 35
PIccolo: 25
SS Goten & Trunks: 20

I'm doing manga only. The anime is so wonky I don't really see the point in power scaling. Every opinion can be wrong and right at the same time.

[picc]

I’d question placing Piccolo (Boo arc) at Cell Junior level though. He wasn’t on Vegeta and Trunks’ level during the Cell Games, and while he trained for seven years, we have no direct feats suggesting he reached that high. Goten and Trunks being relative to Cell Jrs. in the Super manga makes it even shakier to assume Piccolo (Boo arc) surpassed that threshold.

Seven years is a really, REALLY long time.

We have no direct feats sure, so everyone's just guessing, and I can't say you're off about your estimate. But after 7 years I think its fair to place him with the cell jr's.

If that doesn't work, imagine AT brought Cell and the jr's back for some reason in the buu saga, and had them encounter the z senshi. Do you really see him having Piccolo dominated by the juniors?

Throughout Super, Piccolo has been depicted as relative to Base Saiyans in most arcs. In RoF arc, he was clearly weaker than SS1 Gohan. In the U6 Tournament arc, he was portrayed as an equal to a retrained Base Gohan. During the Tournament of Power arc, he again fought on par with Gohan’s completed base form and Base Goku. The only exception might be the Super Hero arc, where he seemed to be above Base Gohan, although I’m not sure if we could say that he is above Base Goku and Vegeta.

I think the manga U6 tournament places him relative to the ssj's.

For example, Frost was unable to beat Piccolo without his needle. We can agree Frost was stronger, but the fact of the matter is he had to resort to the needle to win the match. That places them relative to each other.

Goku fought Frost, and while we can agree he clearly won the fight and was stronger, it was somewhat competitive.

Vegeta crushed Frost, but by that point, Frost had already been in lengthy bouts with both Piccolo and Goku with no rest. Judging his strength by that is akin to judging Cell Games Goku by his fight with the Cell jr.

So what do we know? Goku is definitely stronger than Frost, but not overwhelmingly so. And Piccolo is weaker than Frost, but barely.

Therefore, I think we can conclude that at the time of the U6 tournament, Piccolo was clearly and definitively weaker than the SSJ's, but not by enough to be closer to their base forms. I don't see any way Piccolo could have pressed Frost the way he did if he was base saiyan level.

And since Goku's ssj form had gotten significantly stronger since the cell games, its reasonable to place Piccolo around his level from back then.

I'm using manga only btw. You may well be right about anime scaling, but everyone is right about anime scaling since there are so many contradictions and plot holes.

[picc]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

Personally I don't see why Piccolo is that low after the Rosat at least in the anime Cell games he's shown moderately behind Trunks and Vegeta. While the manga doesn't show much of him in action, but paying close attention looks like he's still fighting on relative terms with the jrs. Not to mention the art cover for the chapter kinda hinting where everyone scales at the time.

Secondly Idk how Piccolo can be that weak (Especially Moro arc) unless ur going with the manga route where Goku doesn't absorb SSG. I can't say too much overall about Super since I've been working on a Power level list for them for almost 2 years! (will be 2 this upcoming April).

I am using exclusively manga for these estimates.

I try to avoid anime power level discussions mainly because the anime is so random, inconsistent, and contradictory, that it makes it pointless IMO. Everyone's opinion on anime PL's is probably right and wrong at the same time.

As for his PL after the ROSAT, there was a lot of levels between Android 17 and the Cell Juniors that I don't think one year of training could make up for.

16 was MASSIVELY stronger than 17.

2nd form Cell was MASSIVELY stronger than 16.

Super Vegeta was then much, much stronger than 2nd form cell.

The cell juniors were much stronger than Super Vegeta.

I don't see any realistic way that gap could be bridged in a year.

[Yuji]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

Sounds good. Only real hiccup is pre-ROF Piccolo since he's much weaker than a rusty SS Gohan in that arc. I guess you can handwave it as Gohan was just having difficulty accessing Super Saiyan, his battle power didn't decrease much from the Boo arc necessarily.

CG SS Gohan: 50
Boo arc SS Gohan: 40
RF SS Gohan: 35
PIccolo: 25
SS Goten & Trunks: 20

I'm doing manga only. The anime is so wonky I don't really see the point in power scaling. Every opinion can be wrong and right at the same time.

Sure, but ROF still exists in the manga? Even if it's not shown, we can assume the movie events take place. Or even Toyotaro's own 3 chapter RoF manga. SS Gohan still one shots Shisami, whom Piccolo struggled with.

[Hugo Boss]

Seven years is a really, REALLY long time.

We have no direct feats sure, so everyone's just guessing, and I can't say you're off about your estimate. But after 7 years I think its fair to place him with the cell jr's.

If that doesn't work, imagine AT brought Cell and the jr's back for some reason in the buu saga, and had them encounter the z senshi. Do you really see him having Piccolo dominated by the juniors?

I think the manga U6 tournament places him relative to the ssj's.

For example, Frost was unable to beat Piccolo without his needle. We can agree Frost was stronger, but the fact of the matter is he had to resort to the needle to win the match. That places them relative to each other.

Goku fought Frost, and while we can agree he clearly won the fight and was stronger, it was somewhat competitive.

Vegeta crushed Frost, but by that point, Frost had already been in lengthy bouts with both Piccolo and Goku with no rest. Judging his strength by that is akin to judging Cell Games Goku by his fight with the Cell jr.

So what do we know? Goku is definitely stronger than Frost, but not overwhelmingly so. And Piccolo is weaker than Frost, but barely.

Therefore, I think we can conclude that at the time of the U6 tournament, Piccolo was clearly and definitively weaker than the SSJ's, but not by enough to be closer to their base forms. I don't see any way Piccolo could have pressed Frost the way he did if he was base saiyan level.

And since Goku's ssj form had gotten significantly stronger since the cell games, its reasonable to place Piccolo around his level from back then.

I'm using manga only btw. You may well be right about anime scaling, but everyone is right about anime scaling since there are so many contradictions and plot holes.

Seven years is definitely a long time, but I don’t think that alone is enough to assume Piccolo reached Cell Junior level by the Boo arc. If we go by Daima, Piccolo is implied to be below Base Goku, which means he would have to be above a Cell Junior for that comparison to hold. That would also require Base Goku in the Boo arc to be approaching his Cell Games SS1 level, which seems unlikely given how conservatively the Super manga treats power scaling compared to the TV anime.

As for the U6 tournament, I agree Piccolo gave Frost a good fight, but it was a strategic battle. Frost was already fatigued from fighting Goku. Even so, Piccolo was burning through stamina faster than Frost. That doesn’t suggest he was relative to SS1 fighters in raw power.

If we take Daima as a reference, unless Piccolo had a drastically more efficient training method than Goku, the gap between them should persist into later story arcs as well. And while the Super TV anime has inconsistencies, one consistent trend is Piccolo being relative to Base Saiyans rather than Super Saiyan level fighters.

[Hellspawn28]

Final Form Freeza ROF vs. Giant Third Eye Gomah and SSj4 Adult Goku (Daima)

Who wins?

[ZombieVito]

Final Form Freeza ROF vs. Giant Third Eye Gomah and SSj4 Adult Goku (Daima)

Who wins?

Freeza and without much issue.

[picc]

Seven years is definitely a long time, but I don’t think that alone is enough to assume Piccolo reached Cell Junior level by the Boo arc. If we go by Daima, Piccolo is implied to be below Base Goku, which means he would have to be above a Cell Junior for that comparison to hold. That would also require Base Goku in the Boo arc to be approaching his Cell Games SS1 level, which seems unlikely given how conservatively the Super manga treats power scaling compared to the TV anime.

As for the U6 tournament, I agree Piccolo gave Frost a good fight, but it was a strategic battle. Frost was already fatigued from fighting Goku. Even so, Piccolo was burning through stamina faster than Frost. That doesn’t suggest he was relative to SS1 fighters in raw power.

If we take Daima as a reference, unless Piccolo had a drastically more efficient training method than Goku, the gap between them should persist into later story arcs as well. And while the Super TV anime has inconsistencies, one consistent trend is Piccolo being relative to Base Saiyans rather than Super Saiyan level fighters.

I do think 7 years is long enough to reach cell jr. level. We don't know anything for sure. Without direct frames of reference, everyone is just guessing. Its more "is this a reasonable estimate to make?".

I can see a lower end valuation of Piccolo being Super Vegeta level. That's reasonable. I also think, given the time elapsed and the monumental power leaps made in much shorter amounts of times, cell jr. level is too. It's not a mountain I'm dying on, but I don't see it as any less arguable than the lower end.

Maybe that's where we agree to disagree.

re: Frost

Could base Goku stalemate Frost in the U6 tournament? That's going to be a stronger "no" from me. A fighter who could competitively fight with a U6 saga SSJ Goku -- who was much, much more powerful than his Cell Games SSJ form -- would wash his base form. Thus, Piccolo must be closer to SSJ than to base.

I understand he already fought Goku, and was weaker than Goku to begin with. I'm not saying Piccolo was equal or very close to the SSJ's. Simply that he was closer to them than he was to the base forms. Otherwise, scaling would demand that Goku's base form was somewhat close to his SSJ from the Cell Games, which Frost had to at least rival to make the bout competitive at all.

Consider also that base Goku had just fought Frost's base form, and was evenly matched with it, then fought his next form and was at a slight disadvantage. How then could the same base Goku replicate Piccolo's performance against Frost's final form?

I'm sure there's a gymnastic floor routine we could perform to get to some method all of that is possible with Piccolo being relative to the base saiyans. But the occam's razor is "Piccolo was weaker than the SSJ's, but much stronger than base".

re: Daima/Anime

We know for a fact that BoG Goku's base is weaker than final form Freeza, as indicated by Beerus.

We also know for a fact that Piccolo is much stronger than final form Freeza, as far back as the android saga.

For your theory to reconcile, Piccolo would have had to lose a significant amount of power, numerous times.

[picc]

Sounds good. Only real hiccup is pre-ROF Piccolo since he's much weaker than a rusty SS Gohan in that arc. I guess you can handwave it as Gohan was just having difficulty accessing Super Saiyan, his battle power didn't decrease much from the Boo arc necessarily.

CG SS Gohan: 50
Boo arc SS Gohan: 40
RF SS Gohan: 35
PIccolo: 25
SS Goten & Trunks: 20

I'm doing manga only. The anime is so wonky I don't really see the point in power scaling. Every opinion can be wrong and right at the same time.

Sure, but ROF still exists in the manga? Even if it's not shown, we can assume the movie events take place. Or even Toyotaro's own 3 chapter RoF manga. SS Gohan still one shots Shisami, whom Piccolo struggled with.

Sure, then how do you reconcile that with Piccolo stalemating a fighter a much stronger SSJ Goku had a decent fight with not much later?

You can't. That's why the anime is useless for PL debates, and only ensures they will never end -- because in the anime, there are no right or wrong answers, only what happened at that moment.

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Re: Piccolo’s strength

This is a rough estimate of Piccolo’s power level and how it scaled through the end of Z and Super.

Thoughts?

Android 17/Piccolo
Android 16/Imperfect Cell
Piccolo post ROSAT training
2nd form Cell
Super Vegeta
Cell Junior/Piccolo Buu saga
Cell Games Vegeta
Cell Games Goku/Suppressed Cell
Piccolo DBS (U6 Tourn)
Full Power Perfect Cell
Base Piccolo DBS (current)
Super Perfect Cell

Personally I don't see why Piccolo is that low after the Rosat at least in the anime Cell games he's shown moderately behind Trunks and Vegeta. While the manga doesn't show much of him in action, but paying close attention looks like he's still fighting on relative terms with the jrs. Not to mention the art cover for the chapter kinda hinting where everyone scales at the time.

Secondly Idk how Piccolo can be that weak (Especially Moro arc) unless ur going with the manga route where Goku doesn't absorb SSG. I can't say too much overall about Super since I've been working on a Power level list for them for almost 2 years! (will be 2 this upcoming April).

I am using exclusively manga for these estimates.

I try to avoid anime power level discussions mainly because the anime is so random, inconsistent, and contradictory, that it makes it pointless IMO. Everyone's opinion on anime PL's is probably right and wrong at the same time.

As for his PL after the ROSAT, there was a lot of levels between Android 17 and the Cell Juniors that I don't think one year of training could make up for.

16 was MASSIVELY stronger than 17.

2nd form Cell was MASSIVELY stronger than 16.

Super Vegeta was then much, much stronger than 2nd form cell.

The cell juniors were much stronger than Super Vegeta.

I don't see any realistic way that gap could be bridged in a year.

Piccolo went from weaker than Nappa to over 200k in just several days on king kais surpassing several people.

He also went from base vegeta lvl to Super Saiyan lvl in 3 years of basic training surpassing the Emperor of the Universe.

He also went from SS2 Gohan pre Mystic unlock lvl to Far beyond BoG SSG Goku from training with gohan for not even a month.

Judging by these it's not that out of the ordinary for Piccolo to at least be 50% Cell Games Goku lvl

[picc]

Personally I don't see why Piccolo is that low after the Rosat at least in the anime Cell games he's shown moderately behind Trunks and Vegeta. While the manga doesn't show much of him in action, but paying close attention looks like he's still fighting on relative terms with the jrs. Not to mention the art cover for the chapter kinda hinting where everyone scales at the time.

Secondly Idk how Piccolo can be that weak (Especially Moro arc) unless ur going with the manga route where Goku doesn't absorb SSG. I can't say too much overall about Super since I've been working on a Power level list for them for almost 2 years! (will be 2 this upcoming April).

I am using exclusively manga for these estimates.

I try to avoid anime power level discussions mainly because the anime is so random, inconsistent, and contradictory, that it makes it pointless IMO. Everyone's opinion on anime PL's is probably right and wrong at the same time.

As for his PL after the ROSAT, there was a lot of levels between Android 17 and the Cell Juniors that I don't think one year of training could make up for.

16 was MASSIVELY stronger than 17.

2nd form Cell was MASSIVELY stronger than 16.

Super Vegeta was then much, much stronger than 2nd form cell.

The cell juniors were much stronger than Super Vegeta.

I don't see any realistic way that gap could be bridged in a year.

Piccolo went from weaker than Nappa to over 200k in just several days on king kais surpassing several people.

He also went from base vegeta lvl to Super Saiyan lvl in 3 years of basic training surpassing the Emperor of the Universe.

He also went from SS2 Gohan pre Mystic unlock lvl to Far beyond BoG SSG Goku from training with gohan for not even a month.

Judging by these it's not that out of the ordinary for Piccolo to at least be 50% Cell Games Goku lvl

The truth is none of us have a scouter, and he could be anywhere between 16 level and Super Vegeta level for all we know. I'm not saying you're wrong, because there's no way I could know if you're wrong or not. I just think there is such a monumental gap between Android 17 and Super Vegeta that it seems extremely unlikely for that gap to be made up in a year.

If you choose to place him at Cell Jr. level in your PL list, that's your prerogative and there's no way for anyone to prove you wrong. But recall that Vegeta did an extra year in the ROSAT before the Cell Games. If your theory is that Piccolo, in one year, made up the gap between 17 and Super Vegeta, and also somehow made up the extra gap that Vegeta made in his extra year in the time chamber, I think that falls out of the realm of reasonable possibility.

And in no way do I believe Piccolo was anywhere near 200k after being on Kai's planet. The daizenshuu suggests several ridiculous, implausible things, and that is one of the more egregious ones. It's a totally unreliable and problematic source IMO.

[Hugo Boss]

I do think 7 years is long enough to reach cell jr. level. We don't know anything for sure. Without direct frames of reference, everyone is just guessing. Its more "is this a reasonable estimate to make?".

I can see a lower end valuation of Piccolo being Super Vegeta level. That's reasonable. I also think, given the time elapsed and the monumental power leaps made in much shorter amounts of times, cell jr. level is too. It's not a mountain I'm dying on, but I don't see it as any less arguable than the lower end.

Maybe that's where we agree to disagree.

re: Frost

Could base Goku stalemate Frost in the U6 tournament? That's going to be a stronger "no" from me. A fighter who could competitively fight with a U6 saga SSJ Goku -- who was much, much more powerful than his Cell Games SSJ form -- would wash his base form. Thus, Piccolo must be closer to SSJ than to base.

I understand he already fought Goku, and was weaker than Goku to begin with. I'm not saying Piccolo was equal or very close to the SSJ's. Simply that he was closer to them than he was to the base forms. Otherwise, scaling would demand that Goku's base form was somewhat close to his SSJ from the Cell Games, which Frost had to at least rival to make the bout competitive at all.

Consider also that base Goku had just fought Frost's base form, and was evenly matched with it, then fought his next form and was at a slight disadvantage. How then could the same base Goku replicate Piccolo's performance against Frost's final form?

I'm sure there's a gymnastic floor routine we could perform to get to some method all of that is possible with Piccolo being relative to the base saiyans. But the occam's razor is "Piccolo was weaker than the SSJ's, but much stronger than base".

re: Daima/Anime

We know for a fact that BoG Goku's base is weaker than final form Freeza, as indicated by Beerus.

We also know for a fact that Piccolo is much stronger than final form Freeza, as far back as the android saga.

For your theory to reconcile, Piccolo would have had to lose a significant amount of power, numerous times.

I think Base Goku could definitely pull off a similar trick to what Piccolo did against Frost. When he fought Frost’s third form, he initially seemed at a disadvantage but later admitted to starting slow. He didn’t really need to transform to SS1 against that form, he just wanted to wrap things up quickly since he knew Frost still had a fourth form. This is evident from how he surpassed both Frost’s third and fourth forms while only using SS1.

Regarding the Daima comparison, we now have confirmation that Base Goku is above Piccolo. While I agree that Piccolo was much stronger than Namek Saga Final Form Freeza, and Base Goku was weaker than that same Freeza, this puts us in a Schrödinger’s cat situation where both statements can’t hold at the same time. My solution to this inconsistency is to look at how the RoF arc treated past power levels.

In RoF arc, Zarbon, Dodoria, and the Ginyu Force were all upscaled in the power hierarchy. Shisami, who mirrors Zarbon or Dodoria, fought Piccolo evenly. Tagoma, who was stated to be on Zarbon and Dodoria level initially, trained and surpassed Piccolo and the Ginyu Force, but not Freeza in Namek (?). If these past characters were retroactively recontextualized as stronger, I thought why wouldn’t Freeza be upscaled as well?

In that sense, I think Frost might essentially represent the level Toriyama always imagined Freeza had in the past. I admit there’s no outright statement proving this, but considering how Toriyama occasionally tweaked trivia elements to fit the story, it’s not surprising that these past power levels could be adjusted over time.

[ZombieVito]

And in no way do I believe Piccolo was anywhere near 200k after being on Kai's planet. The daizenshuu suggests several ridiculous, implausible things, and that is one of the more egregious ones. It's a totally unreliable and problematic source IMO.

It's suggested in the manga. Nail says this:

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…I was overwhelmingly defeated by Freeza, but I should have a good comprehension of his abilities…[ ] So merge with me…! I’m also the only fighting-type Namekian on this planet…[ ] That’s right…Your power will become many times greater…”
Piccolo: “…You’re not lying, are you?”
Nail: “If you think so, you can just go get killed by Freeza…”

And remember, Guru suggests Piccolo fusing back with God is a two times boost so Piccolo is over 200,000 when he arrives on Namek.

[picc]

I think Base Goku could definitely pull off a similar trick to what Piccolo did against Frost. When he fought Frost’s third form, he initially seemed at a disadvantage but later admitted to starting slow. He didn’t really need to transform to SS1 against that form, he just wanted to wrap things up quickly since he knew Frost still had a fourth form. This is evident from how he surpassed both Frost’s third and fourth forms while only using SS1.

Goku said he starts slow while losing to 3rd form Frost, thus he must be able to stalemate Final Form Frost, is a leap of logic I'm not able to make. So we'll have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the Daima comparison, we now have confirmation that Base Goku is above Piccolo. While I agree that Piccolo was much stronger than Namek Saga Final Form Freeza, and Base Goku was weaker than that same Freeza, this puts us in a Schrödinger’s cat situation where both statements can’t hold at the same time. My solution to this inconsistency is to look at how the RoF arc treated past power levels.

Therein is part of the issue. The entire anime represents a Schrodingers Cat situation, where multiple things are true at once. I've said essentially that in my last few replies about the medium.

I think your assessment of Daima/RoF is inaccurate and doesn't supercede what we already know, but there's a way to headcanon your way into it that the anime will also support. Can't really disprove it, which is why I typically avoid anime PL debates. Everyone is both right and wrong at the same time, so we have the neverending loop of debate.