Kanzenshuu

Ah right I forgot that was anime only.

Well Kaioshin is arguably stronger than Piccolo who's stronger than 18 who's way stronger than Freeza who should be stronger than the base Saiyans , so maybe not.

That's precisely what we are arguing, so it's a bit of circular reasoning to assume that to argue against what I am saying.

My ...

I think by the end of the series, the Saiyans' base forms have clearly moved beyond any of the beginning of the series villains, including Frieza. Goku and Vegeta at least are above Kaioshin and Kibito. Their fusion was completely toying with Buuhan before they ever used SSJ. Kibito and Kaioshin's ...