Base Saiyans and Freeza

[Kamiccolo9]

It could be stronger than Ssj2 in terms of boost. Ssj2 being stronger than Grade 2 makes sense but Grade 3 is excessive power. Ssj2 could be weaker and just a more efficient use of power. It doesn't necessarily have to be stronger though.

I don't think that's implied at all. SSJ2 seems to allow for more control, and that means that ki can be channeled to increase strength more efficiently. I see nothing that would make Grade III stronger than SSJ2.

[Mjb1985]

That's interesting. Generally I find people put Grade 3 superior to Ssj2. You have Goku advancing a lot in a short time in the Rosat?

[TheGmGoken]

I think the talk about Grade 3 SSJ and SSJ2 power debate should be in a differ topic.
http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =8&t=23553

This topic is getting off topic. So let's conclude this topic with Base Saiyans are weaker then Freeza.

[Mjb1985]

Considering BOG, I agree with you. Without BOG I place them around Android level.

[Kamiccolo9]

Considering BOG, I agree with you. Without BOG I place them around Android level.

I think that the deciding point depends on how you interpret the Goten/Trunks vs 18 fight. Am I right in thinking that's what you're basing this on?

[Mjb1985]

Yep. And that fight is can be interpreted in many ways. For me it fits in better with the Base Saiyans thinking they can win the tournament but considering they can't beat Piccolo it's all a wishy washy. At least 18 was on the plane though when it was said.

[Bussani]

That's interesting. Generally I find people put Grade 3 superior to Ssj2.

I suppose that's since Trunks was weaker than Vegeta, and Grade II Vegeta was quite a lot weaker than Perfect Cell, yet Grade III Trunks "far surpassed" Cell in terms of raw power. If you believe the official two-fold multiplier for Super Saiyan 2, it can be hard for some people to see how Grade III could be less than that. That is, Trunks has to pass both Vegeta and Cell with that one transformation, so it could be pretty impressive.

Of course, Grade III Trunks is nothing compared to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan.

[Saiga]

I actually have Grade III as having the same multiplier, because I like to think that Super Saiyan 2 is Grade III done right - so it's the same boost, without the drawback. It does make it hard to fit Cell, Trunks and Vegeta together though.

Also I don't think Goku ever planned on Gohan getting a rage boost again Cell, or SS2.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

What do you think Goku was expecting from Gohan?

[Saiga]

What do you think Goku was expecting from Gohan?

To deck Cell in the schnozz.

Seriously, though, I think he expected Gohan to win as he was. He asks Gohan is he and Cell looked like they weren't going all out, because he expected Gohan to be stronger than the two of them. It seems he thought the Cell he was facing really was at full power.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, after Cell starts beating up on Gohan, Goku's shown smiling and saying something along the lines of "That's it, Cell. Make Gohan angry. Soon you'll experience real fear." And when Piccolo is yelling at Goku for not helping, he tells Piccolo to wait and see how powerful Gohan will be when his rage brings out his true power. Once Cell puts Gohan in the bear hug, Goku admits that Gohan's hidden powers are their only chance at defeating Cell. I think it was his Wild Card ever since seeing his power in the rosat.

[Saiga]

Well, after Cell starts beating up on Gohan, Goku's shown smiling and saying something along the lines of "That's it, Cell. Make Gohan angry. Soon you'll experience real fear." And when Piccolo is yelling at Goku for not helping, he tells Piccolo to wait and see how powerful Gohan will be when his rage brings out his true power. Once Cell puts Gohan in the bear hug, Goku admits that Gohan's hidden powers are their only chance at defeating Cell. I think it was his Wild Card ever since seeing his power in the rosat.

That was all in the manga? Huh. Well, that seems kind of inconsistent to me. What he says earlier seems to really imply that Gohan should already be strong enough. Unless Cell was using more power and Goku was just like "...and now for plan B".

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yeah, it's all there. Also, Goku brings up Gohan's hidden powers before he even takes off the cape and releases his Chi. The only thing I recall Cell doing is increasing his speed to catch Gohan, but no power-up was noted there. Goku seemed to be unsure if Cell was fighting at his best or not. I think the main plan was to put Gohan in a position where he'd have no choice but to bring out his hidden power through anger. Of course, if Gohan could beat Cell's ass without doing all of that, it'd be less of a hassle for everyone

[Saiga]

I knew about the previous hidden power quote, but that didn't seem to be related to his rage boosts but just about how he had surpassed Goku.

I guess I'll have to go reread those chapters (I don't know if the VizBigs I have cover that, though, haven't even checked) but it seems like things completely change between the pre-fight and the fight itself.

[Mjb1985]

Yea it's a difficult situation but I think Cell's ki is around Ssj Gohan but he just held back against Goku.

[Kamiccolo9]

Yea it's a difficult situation but I think Cell's ki is around Ssj Gohan but he just held back against Goku.

He held back against SSJ Gohan too. Cell didn't fully power up until Gohan transformed into SSJ2.

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P3.5
Context: after Gohan says he can beat Cell
Cell: “Well then, I’ll show you…! My fearsome true power…!”

Chapter: 409 (DBZ 215), P8.2-4
Context: after Cell powers up
Goku: “S-so we finally get to see Cell fight at full power”
Kuririn: “This ki is so astounding, it’s like the entire Earth is shaking.”
Gohan: “What’s the big deal?”

[Mjb1985]

I don't view holding back and suppression as the same thing. Cell stated he would go all out in speed against Gohan. So he went all out in his suppression. Against Goku he didn't.

[Saiga]

I suppose that is one way of looking at it, but then they should have been able to tell if Gohan's ki was greater.

[MuKen]

I think by the end of the series, the Saiyans' base forms have clearly moved beyond any of the beginning of the series villains, including Frieza. Goku and Vegeta at least are above Kaioshin and Kibito. Their fusion was completely toying with Buuhan before they ever used SSJ. Kibito and Kaioshin's fusion on the other hand, didn't even want to come fight Kid Buu. Seeing as all of Kaioshin's peers were said to be able to one-shot Frieza easily, I think it's safe to say that Kaioshin himself is at least on Frieza's level, and probably much higher.

[Draken]

I think by the end of the series, the Saiyans' base forms have clearly moved beyond any of the beginning of the series villains, including Freeza. Goku and Vegeta at least are clearly above Kaioshin and Kibito. Their fusion was completely toying with Buuhan before they ever used SSJ. Kibito and Kaioshin's fusion on the other hand, didn't even want to come fight Kid Buu. Seeing as all of Kaioshin's peers were said to be able to one-shot Freeza easily, I think it's safe to say that Kaioshin himself is at least on Freeza's level, and probably much higher.

Well Kaioshin is arguably stronger than Piccolo who's stronger than 18 who's way stronger than Freeza who should be stronger than the base Saiyans, so maybe not.