"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Koitsukai
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:14 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:43 pm
Koitsukai wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:23 pm
Ziegander wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 3:13 pm
But we're supposed to just go with Goku figuring out where Granolah is going to attack, waiting for it, watching for it, and then consciously dodging Granolah's attacks, and that working when UI couldn't do that, just because, ohhhhhh, nice one Goku, you figured it out? That doesn't make any sense...
Goku knows where Granola will attack because he knows where his vital points are, so if Granola is approaching from behind, he knows where he'll strike and what vital point to shift. If Granola is coming from the front, he knows where he'll get hit in order to be put down.

He cannot dodge it, but he can shift it's position in a way that the attack won't be as effective. He is still getting bodied and returned back to base, only it's no longer a "fatal" blow. Like others have said, the vital point Granola strikes isn't a large area, it's a pretty precise spot and apparently the minimal shift in position throws the attack out of balance.
I understand that's what Goku is doing. I'm just saying, how is it he can do it now, when his body is slower AND he has to actually think about not only anticipating it, but also shifting just a hair's breadth out of the way, when he couldn't have done it before in UI? How could UI not have managed to dodge an inch to the side if not dodge the attack entirely if it is, in fact, an attack his slower, active thought form can dodge even a little bit?

I'm all for giving Vegeta the shine in these chapters and making him look like he's handling himself in the fights better than Goku, hell, perhaps even throughout the entire arc, we'll see, but this just seems to be inconsistent.
Goku is an incredible martial artist with a history of breaking offensive techniques, he broke the Time Skip on the spot, he overcame Moro's absorption and if you want, he also knew how to counter Golden Freeza, but he needed to experience the techniques first though, like in this case. Also, his UI Blue must be getting sharper.

Besides, he's not dodging that much, he is just not getting KO or dying.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Thani » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:19 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:57 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:32 pm
don’t try and paint him as having a greater sense of morality than the majority of other Saiyans.
Too late, that's exactly how Toriyama sees and want to depict Bardock.

As per his words, Bardock possesses calm judgment and a small measure of humanity, on top of not being cold-hearted and of simple thoughts, like most Saiyans.

Toriyama (?) established this new Bardock's personality since 2010 (for those who know Dragon Ball Online) and outright stated that in a 2014 interview. We're 2021 and it seems people still haven't accepted it, despite the long time to try to accept his new personality. Maybe it's time to just move on? They don't need to accept it, sure, just... move on. I don't think we'll be seeing more of Toei's Bardock from now on.

Dragon Ball Heroes and future games will most likely continue to depict him as this "sort-of-evil-but-leaned-to-goodness" character, thus further contributing to the "erasing" of old Bardock from people's memories little by little.

(That said, we do need Bardock with headband. There's no Bardock without headband, it's part of his iconic design).
Plus, he also had a measure of that characterization in the special too:

"Because of his actions of “saving his companions“, which is rare for a Saiyan, he is greatly adored among a portion of the low-class warriors."

Bardock in the special had a real soft spot for his crew, enough so that he grieved hard when he found their bodies, kept a memento from his closest friend, and swore he would avenge them. That alone is reaaaaally out of the norm for the lower classes of saiyans, who are mostly cold-hearted brutes.

So while he's, well, kinder than in the special for sure, to me he always had that "human" side on him.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Grimlock » Wed Sep 22, 2021 6:31 pm

Yeah, Bardock has always been this "strange fella" among the Saiyans, one way or another. I really don't understand when people get mad, saying he should be "a random grunt" or anything. Bardock can't be just a nobody when he is the freaking father of the protagonist (and that goes for every father of protagonists out there). As much as people want him to be a nobody, it's impossible. You can't do that, there's no way you could do that.

The only way for a character like Bardock being a nobody is if he never existed in the first place. But once you establishes the father of someone who will be the face of a franchise, a certain set of expectations come with it by demand and default, like a law.

Bardock cares about others, and now it's possible that he cared even for those who were his target. We need more details and information on that to say more about his characterization, but that seems to be the case for now.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:00 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:57 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:32 pm
don’t try and paint him as having a greater sense of morality than the majority of other Saiyans.
Too late, that's exactly how Toriyama sees and wants to depict Bardock.

As per his words, Bardock possesses calm judgment and a small measure of humanity, on top of not being cold-hearted and of simple thoughts, like most Saiyans.

Toriyama (?) established this new Bardock's personality since 2010 (for those who know Dragon Ball Online) and outright stated that in a 2014 interview. We're 2021 and it seems people still haven't accepted it, despite the long time to try to accept his new personality. Maybe it's time to just move on? They don't need to accept it, sure, just... move on. I don't think we'll be seeing more of Toei's Bardock from now on.

Dragon Ball Heroes and future games will most likely continue to depict him as this "sort-of-evil-but-leaned-to-goodness" character, thus further contributing to the "erasing" of old Bardock from people's memories little by little.

(That said, we do need Bardock with headband. There's no Bardock without headband, it's part of his iconic design).
Oh, I know it’s too late. I’ve known for the past seven years that Toriyamas idea for Bardock is different than Toei’s. I just think it’s unfortunate that we have to be reminded of it. It’s almost like the old FUNimation dub was basically foreshadowing.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:02 pm

Re: Goku using UI to dodge Granolah’s pressure-point attacks but having needed to “learn” about them first (because, to be clear, Goku is using Blue UI when dodging the pressure-point strikes this chapter):

It works for me. The first time, he had no idea what to expect or react to. The second time, he knows, reflexively, what tells to react to and where the strike is going, so I buy UI then, and only then, becoming useful in faster-than-thought dodging. Kind of like how if you’re slapped in the face once by someone, you might instructively duck or wince if they raise their hand again, whereas you wouldn’t have had that reaction the first time.

Now that the body knows what to do, it can do it without thought. (But not precisely/quickly enough, as Goku notes, to be able to dodge the blows entirely.)

But also: No, per the pages, he apparently could not have shifted that hair’s breadth without UI, because Granolah is just that fucking fast. He can only manage to shift slightly in time because Granolah has to think and he doesn’t. And Granolah is still too fucking fast for him to manage anything other than the smallest shift to avoid being hit in a pressure point, even with (something less than his maximum precision with) UI.
Last edited by Cipher on Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:52 pm

IS he using Blue UI in the latest chapter? If he is, then I was simply mistaken. I've been under the impression he was just in his normal Blue form. If he's using Blue UI, then I can buy it with little to no issue, I was just under the impression that somehow because it was really clever he was able to use SSB to dodge an attack, using forethought, that Blue UI couldn't even dodge and I thought that was really ridiculous, clever or not.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:17 pm

Ziegander wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 9:52 pm
IS he using Blue UI in the latest chapter? If he is, then I was simply mistaken. I've been under the impression he was just in his normal Blue form. If he's using Blue UI, then I can buy it with little to no issue, I was just under the impression that somehow because it was really clever he was able to use SSB to dodge an attack, using forethought, that Blue UI couldn't even dodge and I thought that was really ridiculous, clever or not.
Granolah says his dodging ability could help him avoid the strikes, which Goku doesn’t dispute, and he emphasizes Granolah’s strikes taking an instant of thought that he can use to react, so I think it’s heavily, heavily implied.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:49 pm

I thought it was obvious Goku was using Blue UI to shift his vital points. Granolah stated Goku's "evasion technique makes that possible."


Pro tip: Granolah labels Ultra Instinct "evasion technique" in Chapter 73 too.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:22 am

For what it's worth, in 73, to distinguish blue from blue UI, Toyo gave the blue form those drops of blue aura and removed them when going UI in blue.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Ziegander » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:42 am

Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:22 am
For what it's worth, in 73, to distinguish blue from blue UI, Toyo gave the blue form those drops of blue aura and removed them when going UI in blue.
Nice, okay, that makes sense too, because I know a lot of people were wondering why Toyo had brought the blue drops back considering those had last been removed after Goku had "mastered" SSB (right?).

Thanks for helping me understand! :lol:

Another interesting caveat to this: Do people still think Granolah has obtained his own form of Ultra Instinct and the Hakai, or no? I had always been leaning toward no, to both in fact, though I will concede there is stronger evidence that would point to Granolah having at least obtained Hakai or a technique very close to it. Surely even if he had obtained those forms or techniques he has literally zero experience in their proper use, which would make his versions far less effective than either Goku or Vegeta, a fact labored over multiple arcs as Goku has learned more and more about how to utilize Ultra Instinct and Vegeta has only just begun to delve into the mysteries of Destruction. What do you all think?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Koitsukai » Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:47 am

Ziegander wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 10:42 am
Koitsukai wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 7:22 am
For what it's worth, in 73, to distinguish blue from blue UI, Toyo gave the blue form those drops of blue aura and removed them when going UI in blue.
Nice, okay, that makes sense too, because I know a lot of people were wondering why Toyo had brought the blue drops back considering those had last been removed after Goku had "mastered" SSB (right?).

Thanks for helping me understand! :lol:

Another interesting caveat to this: Do people still think Granolah has obtained his own form of Ultra Instinct and the Hakai, or no? I had always been leaning toward no, to both in fact, though I will concede there is stronger evidence that would point to Granolah having at least obtained Hakai or a technique very close to it. Surely even if he had obtained those forms or techniques he has literally zero experience in their proper use, which would make his versions far less effective than either Goku or Vegeta, a fact labored over multiple arcs as Goku has learned more and more about how to utilize Ultra Instinct and Vegeta has only just begun to delve into the mysteries of Destruction. What do you all think?
It was weird when the previous chapter had Goku in the incomplete blue form, but I guess it was just to differenciate it from UI Blue.

I don't think Granny has UI, and if he develops it, it'd be an imperfect, short-lived form like Goku's during the ToP.
Hakai, however, he seems to have, and with more destructive power than Vegeta in his non-Ego state.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:55 am

This is an odd question, but what is the color of the Sugarians skin?
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:25 pm

PurestEvil wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 11:55 am
This is an odd question, but what is the color of the Sugarians skin?
Unknown. But in my mind definitely blue.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Jack Bz » Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:33 pm

I imagined then to be a soft light pink because of the axolotl influence

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by Cipher » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:05 pm

Jack Bz wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 12:33 pm
I imagined then to be a soft light pink because of the axolotl influence
Yes, but have you considered that Wooper is blue, and that fictional depiction of a magic animal roughly based on axolotls has superseded the real thing in my mind?

These are the hard questions that not enough people are willing to answer.

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by TKA » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:09 pm

I don't see color so they can be the "normal"-assumed color: white.

Risky comment of the month.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:38 pm

TKA wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:09 pm
I don't see color so they can be the "normal"-assumed color: white.

Risky comment of the month.
:lol: :clap: Brilliant joke, old chap
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by kemuri07 » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:13 pm

Grimlock wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:57 pm
WittyUsername wrote:
Wed Sep 22, 2021 5:32 pm
don’t try and paint him as having a greater sense of morality than the majority of other Saiyans.
Too late, that's exactly how Toriyama sees and wants to depict Bardock.

As per his words, Bardock possesses calm judgment and a small measure of humanity, on top of not being cold-hearted and of simple thoughts, like most Saiyans.

Toriyama (?) established this new Bardock's personality since 2010 (for those who know Dragon Ball Online) and outright stated that in a 2014 interview. We're 2021 and it seems people still haven't accepted it, despite the long time to try to accept his new personality. Maybe it's time to just move on? They don't need to accept it, sure, just... move on. I don't think we'll be seeing more of Toei's Bardock from now on.

Dragon Ball Heroes and future games will most likely continue to depict him as this "sort-of-evil-but-leaned-to-goodness" character, thus further contributing to the "erasing" of old Bardock from people's memories little by little.

(That said, we do need Bardock with headband. There's no Bardock without headband, it's part of his iconic design).
There's a couple of problems with that.

1. None of what Toriyama says necessarily negates the issues people have with the current interpretation of Bardock (the scientist? The very same.). Sure, he has a bit of compassion reserved for mostly his group. But he's still a mass murderer, and is all but fine being one even after being betrayed Frieza. It's the same problem I have with people who use the Toriyama quote of Goku not supposed to be a comic hero, to justify the terrible writing from DBS that made him look like an utter sociopath. Basically using Toriyama quotes to justify odd character shifts isn't really the right way to go

2. Toriyama also did make DB Minus which is, at best, a very controversial retcon of Goku's origin which, hilarious enough, does the thing that Toriyama claimed that he didn't want Goku to become: a comic book superhero. More importantly, we're kinda in this age of post-modernism where it's totally okay to both criticize Toriyama's direction here. I mean I think "S cells" is pretty much all one needs to say here We'll see what happens next chapter, and maybe they'll add something neat to Bardock's character, but having be that one kind Saiyan who showed mercy makes Goku's change less random and more inevitable. It's destiny!

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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by DiscountDabi » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:39 pm

TKA wrote:
Thu Sep 23, 2021 1:09 pm
I don't see color so they can be the "normal"-assumed color: white.

Risky comment of the month.
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Re: "Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

Post by PurestEvil » Thu Sep 23, 2021 2:50 pm

Okay but seriously, I always imagined the sugarians to be pink/light red to resemble strawberry/peppermint suckers.
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