Kai Episode 34 (29 November 2009)

SSj_Rambo · Post by **SSj_Rambo** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 6:59 pm

kei17 wrote:
MajinVejitaXV wrote:
kei17 wrote:Every old Japanese TV anime (until the end of the '70s) was recorded on 35mm and printed down to 16mm for broadcasting use. This is the fact I know.

Can you reference something? I just find it odd, since television stations don't get film reels. They get tapes. Typically, from what I've been told, it was "cels --> 16mm negative --> 16mm interpositive --> D2 tape." That's why we run into the problem of things the television stations do being horrid quality if included at all on a DVD release, because it's a tape master and not a film master.
Since I've got no enough time, I roughly answer this only. Well, TV stations did get film reels at that time. Toei Kagaku printed the 16mm masters for Fuji and every other local TV stations. Toei started using D2 tape master from GT. If they'd used D2 tape on DB and DBZ, the cinetape audio would have never been lost.

DBZ Episode 79, Fuji Television
*Snips*

Just on a side note, where did you get those pictures?!

Duo · Post by **Duo** » Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:16 pm

What he said. That is so incredibly obscure I am rather at a loss.

fps_anth · Post by **fps_anth** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 4:31 pm

I think I've seen them for sale on Yahoo Auctions Japan a couple of times

bkev · Post by **bkev** » Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:10 pm

There were film reels of 2 or 3 episodes being sold out of Orange County on eBay, quite a long time ago... maybe a year or two? They were dismissed as fake due to their origin site, but who knows? None of us bought it.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Fri Dec 11, 2009 8:39 pm

kei17 wrote:Since I've got no enough time, I roughly answer this only. Well, TV stations did get film reels at that time. Toei Kagaku printed the 16mm masters for Fuji and every other local TV stations. Toei started using D2 tape master from GT. If they'd used D2 tape on DB and DBZ, the cinetape audio would have never been lost.

Okay, I'm not convinced really since I can't find anything to corroborate this, but I'll go with you for now just for argument's sake. Assuming Toei sent 16mm film to every TV station, then what? They each created their own broadcast tapes and ran them? Seems like every station would have varying quality then, since different telecine processes would each create their own flaws and defects (not to mention each 16mm master would show gradual degradation of the internegative they were printed from).

Plus, here's where I'm confused moreso: A.) 'Cinetape' is a term for a measurement device, which kept throwing me off. B.) If each station got a 16mm master, created from the internegative that was two generations from the original print...how does the audio get *better* on an already mixed release by transferring to a different medium? If anything, it would get worse (though, if done properly, it wouldn't).

-Corey

sangofe · Post by **sangofe** » Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:23 am

Wow, the difference of that Gunbuster is stunning.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Mon Dec 14, 2009 12:23 am

Just a quick point I'd like to raise (and full credit to Hujio for this one, as we were discussing the matter and he actually made this point), not with the intention of causing any trouble, is that if Toei did send 16mm film to every station and have them create their own (different for each station) broadcast tapes...it renders the 'broadcast colors' argument completely null and void.

After all, no two broadcast tapes would be the same if this is the case. That would mean that the only "constant" from DB and DBZ is Toei's original film masters that were used for the DragonBoxes, and every broadcast master would be a "variable" and therefore not reliable for gauging the fidelity of the colors.

-Corey

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:18 pm

Doubt whether the film is real or not? Well, I bought one. This really is it. The 16mm film reel Fuji used for re-airing of DB during DBZ.

Film checking list (CX means Fuji TV)

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Plus, here's where I'm confused moreso: A.) 'Cinetape' is a term for a measurement device, which kept throwing me off. B.) If each station got a 16mm master, created from the internegative that was two generations from the original print...how does the audio get *better* on an already mixed release by transferring to a different medium? If anything, it would get worse (though, if done properly, it wouldn't).

Fuji is the only TV station that got the cinetape. They used the very audio master that was made only one. Other local stations rebroadcasted it. Since some other local stations aired DB few weeks after Fuji, they used only the audio of film. This is a common knowledge among Japanese otaku.

Post by **Herms** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:26 pm

kei17 wrote:Doubt whether the film is real or not? Well, I bought one. This really is it. The 16mm film reel Fuji used for re-airing of DB during DBZ.

I don't think anyone was doubting it was the real thing, people were just curious where/how you managed to buy it.

MajinVejitaXV · Post by **MajinVejitaXV** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:30 pm

Herms wrote:
kei17 wrote:Doubt whether the film is real or not? Well, I bought one. This really is it. The 16mm film reel Fuji used for re-airing of DB during DBZ.
I don't think anyone was doubting it was the real thing, people were just curious where/how you managed to buy it.

Yeah, I can verify that I wasn't questioning the legitimacy of the pictures, I was just curious about the "film masters were sent to TV stations" claim. I did get some information though, I'm in the process of writing some stuff up to explain quite a few things. Hopefully it'll shelve all this confusion once and for all.

-Corey

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:32 pm

Herms wrote:
kei17 wrote:Doubt whether the film is real or not? Well, I bought one. This really is it. The 16mm film reel Fuji used for re-airing of DB during DBZ.
I don't think anyone was doubting it was the real thing, people were just curious where/how you managed to buy it.

Ah, okay. The images I put before were from Yahoo! Auctions and I haven't got the real thing. Then, I bought one there this time.

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:50 pm

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Just a quick point I'd like to raise (and full credit to Hujio for this one, as we were discussing the matter and he actually made this point), not with the intention of causing any trouble, is that if Toei did send 16mm film to every station and have them create their own (different for each station) broadcast tapes...it renders the 'broadcast colors' argument completely null and void.

After all, no two broadcast tapes would be the same if this is the case. That would mean that the only "constant" from DB and DBZ is Toei's original film masters that were used for the DragonBoxes, and every broadcast master would be a "variable" and therefore not reliable for gauging the fidelity of the colors.

-Corey

The films were printed correctly from the early negative master by Toei itself, then recorded on home video tapes that can keep the correct colors longer than film. The master films they used for DBOXes are also printed positive masters which are the same as films TV stations used (Toei have never mentioned it, but Toei always call film masters "print" which means positive film when they reply to me, and "the original master films" which FUNimation leased from Toei were clearly positive films), and the colours on them are faded because of the storage for long time that film cannot keep the correct colors. If you ask me, nothing is "constant" and "reliable" execpt the original cel and its color setting. But I showed you many many theoretically supported evidences and Toei itself patially accepted my opinion. I also proved my assumption about cinetape. Now you still want to argue? You sure are a tough guy.

CashmanX · Post by **CashmanX** » Thu Dec 17, 2009 11:55 pm

kei17 wrote:Doubt whether the film is real or not? Well, I bought one. This really is it. The 16mm film reel Fuji used for re-airing of DB during DBZ.

http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... ilm_01.jpg
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq29 ... ilm_02.jpg

Film checking list (CX means Fuji TV)
http://i430.photobucket.com/albums/qq29/kei17/film.jpg

MajinVejitaXV wrote:Plus, here's where I'm confused moreso: A.) 'Cinetape' is a term for a measurement device, which kept throwing me off. B.) If each station got a 16mm master, created from the internegative that was two generations from the original print...how does the audio get *better* on an already mixed release by transferring to a different medium? If anything, it would get worse (though, if done properly, it wouldn't).
Fuji is the only TV station that got the cinetape. They used the very audio master that was made only one. Other local stations rebroadcasted it. Since some other local stations aired DB few weeks after Fuji, they used only the audio of film. This is a common knowledge among Japanese otaku.

H-H-How much did you pay for that!

kei17 · Post by **kei17** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 12:05 am

CashmanX wrote:H-H-How much did you pay for that!

Only 30,000 yen. ($330)

sangofe · Post by **sangofe** » Fri Dec 18, 2009 4:22 am

kei17 wrote:
CashmanX wrote:H-H-How much did you pay for that!
Only 30,000 yen. ($330)

Kei, check your pm box...

Son Wukong · Post by **Son Wukong** » Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:58 am

kei17 wrote:Now you still want to argue? You sure are a tough guy.

Nothing wrong with being a bit critical. I mean, it's good that you have all this information to share with us but it's also good when people who know their stuff can ask questions about it's validity. I enjoy seeing people go against each other like this

Kanzenshuu

Kai Episode 34 (29 November 2009)

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