Pronunciation of "Saiyan"

[Son Goshen]

ADMIN NOTE: Split off from the discussion of Podcast Episode #0263

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Excellent podcast episode, but I have a question that isn't really related to this episode.

How do you pronouce : saiyan? Everyone I know who watches DBZ pronouces it "say-an", but you guys say "sigh-ay".

I never watched the English dub so I don't know...

[Edit: I meant sigh-an, not sigh-ay... some weird typo I made)

[VegettoEX]

(Go ridiculously long post for a simple answer!)

The most important thing is knowing how to pronounce Japanese syllables. This page has a decent guide, particularly with what we would consider the "vowel sounds".

The "saiya" in "saiya-jin" (サイヤ人) is an anagram from "yasai" (野菜 / やさい), which means "vegetable". This gets played upon with the name puns within the race, and then further expanded upon with the introduction of the Tsufurians, which comes from "tsufuru-jin" (ツフル人), itself an anagram from "furuutsu" (フルーツ / "fruit").

(Here's a quick MP3 clip of Tullece saying the name of the race from DBZ movie 3 -- keep it in mind as we move forward).

You could just keep the name of the race fully as-is if you'd like ("Saiya-jin") as I did for many years (the Spanish dub did the same thing, as did a few other adaptations). You could also drop the 人 ("jin") portion, which is added as a suffix to the name of the race, literally meaning "person" (alternate readings of the kanji include "hito" or "nin", but in this case it's read as "jin") -- if you drop it, you will likely need to adapt it into your own language somehow, and in English we might add an "n" to the end of it, so we get "Saiyan". It's similar to how I'm a "New Jerseyan" (sometimes "Jerseyite") because I'm from New Jersey, or how "Caucasian" comes from the "Caucasus" region.

(It's also worth noting that "Saiyan" was an official "English" spelling of the race on Japanese merchandise long before FUNimation existed.)

Now, replacing the suffix doesn't somehow miraculously change the intended pronunciation of the name of the race:

- The サ ("sa") should be pretty simple enough; it is what we might call a "short 'a' sound", sounding similar to the "a" in "drama" rather than in "sample" or "place".

- The イ ("i") sounds like the "i" in "macaroni". Just note that it's not a particularly "long" sound, since when you've got "Videl" coming from "biideru", the "ii" sound in there is longer than it is here in "Saiya".

- The ヤ ("ya") sounds like... oh, I dunno... like how we might say, "How are ya'?", or like in the word "papaya".

So yes. The "Sai" from "saiya-jin / Saiyan" sounds very similar to our English word "sigh", as in, "I sigh when people pronounce 'Saiyan' incorrectly!" ^_~

The "an" part gets slurred over often, but it should be noted that it shouldn't sound like "en" as in "the end of the word", but a softer "ahn" sound.

I've seen people pull the, "Well, you're not talking in Japanese, you're talking in English, so who the mother-f'-in-eff cares?!" OK, then -- I'll start calling the main character "Gako" and his Z-era rival "Brontosaurus". We're talking in English, so who cares?! ^_~

Since none of the regulars on our podcast primarily watch anything other than the original Japanese version of the show (or the manga, for that matter), pronunciations in FUNimation's English dub have little bearing on how we say things (other than the occasional ancient relic from 1996 that slips in every so often, I guess).

I guess I find it pretty interesting that despite never watching the English dub, you're unsure about the pronunciation. Where are you hearing people speak it aloud incorrectly, then?

[roidrage]

I've seen people pull the, "Well, you're not talking in Japanese, you're talking in English, so who the mother-f'-in-eff cares?!" OK, then -- I'll start calling the main character "Gako" and his Z-era rival "Brontosaurus". We're talking in English, so who cares?! ^_~

How is that a counter to their point? Names are one thing, accents and emphasis are another. I've never liked the idea that I have to pronounce Son Goku "Soun Gokuu", because then I suddenly start talking with this Japanese accent, and I don't like that. I'm American, I speak English, and I speak with an American accent. Certain words are just going to sound a little different than their original pronunciations because of that.

I guess your point is that there's only one way to pronounce something and that changing a pronunciation is equivalent to mangling a name, but I don't agree with that at all. Just because I watch a foreign show in its original language doesn't mean I suddenly have to talk like them.

You're still probably going to tell me "Sun Gouku" isn't an "acceptable" pronunciation, and maybe you'd be right, but I don't mind being deliberately wrong once in a while, as long as I acknowledge that I am.

[Puto]

The best way to see how "Saiyan"'s supposed to be pronounced is to listen to the Kai insert song, "Saiyan Blood."

[Fox666]

(It's also worth noting that "Saiyan" was an official "English" spelling of the race on Japanese merchandise long before FUNimation existed.)

That's good to know. They used the more simplistic translaton, they just replaced the suffix "jin" by "an" (like in Italian).

To think that Saiya means "vegetable", it makes some sort of sense for the planet being called "Vegeta". Lucky it's still different enough so that we don't have Super Vegetarians.

[Adamant]

Certain words are just going to sound a little different than their original pronunciations because of that.

Except pronouncing "Gokuu" as "Gowku" has nothing to do with accent, and everything to do with misreading the word and then refusing to pronounce it correctly after being told you're wrong. Talking English doesn't make you incapable of accentuating the last syllable in a word. Do you mispronounce "Peru" too?

Or, an even better example - do you say "cuckoo clock" or "cocoa clock"?

[Pokewhiz7]

I don't understand how they can pronounce Kai correctly but not Saiyan, or, until Kai, Kaioken.

[roidrage]

Or, an even better example - do you say "cuckoo clock" or "cocoa clock"?

That's actually a terrible example; you can't misread cuckoo as "cocoa", but you can easily misread Goku unless there happens to be an extra "u" on the end. But really, I've been pronouncing Goku (and "Son Goku") the way I have for so long that I flat-out refuse to pronounce it any other way. No amount of fussing, lecturing, or eye-rolling emoticons is going to get me to change that. Same thing with Kami.

Yes, I am that obstinate

[Adamant]

Names are one thing, accents and emphasis are another. I've never liked the idea that I have to pronounce Son Goku "Soun Gokuu", because then I suddenly start talking with this Japanese accent, and I don't like that. I'm American, I speak English, and I speak with an American accent. Certain words are just going to sound a little different than their original pronunciations because of that.

you can easily misread Goku unless there happens to be an extra "u" on the end. But really, I've been pronouncing Goku (and "Son Goku") the way I have for so long that I flat-out refuse to pronounce it any other way. No amount of fussing, lecturing, or eye-rolling emoticons is going to get me to change that. Same thing with Kami.

Yes, I am that obstinate

Obstinate, maybe, but not particularly consistent.

[Eddie]

Since none of the regulars on our podcast primarily watch anything other than the original Japanese version of the show (or the manga, for that matter), pronunciations in FUNimation's English dub have little bearing on how we say things (other than the occasional ancient relic from 1996 that slips in every so often, I guess).

I guess I find it pretty interesting that despite never watching the English dub, you're unsure about the pronunciation. Where are you hearing people speak it aloud incorrectly, then?

I think you're a pretty cool guy and all, but I'm totally calling you out on this portion of your earlier response. I understand that you're our almighty webmaster, but frankly this stuff seems an awful lot like a mixture of inflated ego (yep, went there), revisionist history (Mwahahaha! You're old podcasts are gonna be used against you!) , and a lack of interest on your part in some of the various Funimation stuffage (not holding this one against you at all, just something that's worth acknowledging).

First a brief little thing on your ego. To be honest, this isn't something I generally have an issue with. You've managed to do a pretty damn good job providing Dragon Ball content on the internet for years. If you want to have an enlarged ego, go for it. I do think it has blinded you a bit on this one, though. You kind of come across as expecting everybody to consistently know the way YOU pronounce things, and that that is the OMG ONE TRUE WAY TO DO STUFFS. Again, this rarely bothers me. It just seemed like something to point out since I had other things to say anyway.

Let's move on to the revisionist history, shall we? This is actually my main point, so I have a decent amount to say. Where to start, where to start... hmm, let's go with this idea that none of the regular podcast folks would ever pronounce things in a different way than the Japanese anime did.

Yeah, which is why I don't like saying Kuririn. I just force myself because of the Manga Review of Awesomeness. I'd prefer to say Krillin.

Let's also bring up the Bluma business from that very episode. You seemed pretty damn convinced that "Bluma" is a much better way to pronounce the name of the character that most of us know as Bulma. However, the name is never pronounced this way in the original version. You were simply projecting your own views on how it should be pronounced. Meri even scoffed at your attitude on that one.

Let's dip farther into the past. You seem to be confused about how someone can possibly use a dub pronunciation, even with a familiarity of the Japanese version. Having recently relistened to the majority of the podcasts, I can tell you that you absolutely used to use the names Taurus and Krillin. You even made specific mention to the fact that, at the time, you had difficulty saying Kuririn and often just said Krillin. I'm also fairly positive that Meri has used "Sayin" rather than "Sighin" on multiple occasions. You can use the excuse that these examples are "relics of 1996" all you want, it still makes you come across as a hypocrite.

Now for my last point. This one's less about picking on Mike and more about pointing out some things that are easy to overlook when you run a site that focuses on the Japanese version of Dragon Ball. In America, dub terms and pronunciations are thrown at many of us whether we like it or not. Even if you exclusively watch the Japanese version, chances are you have heard the term "Sayin" quite a few times. It is heard in advertisements, panels at anime conventions, games (some of the games featured the dub exclusively), and in many casual conversations with dub viewing friends. Furthermore, you could make the argument that many fans of the Japanese version have only heard the name pronounced two ways: Saiyajin (when they watch the show) and "Sayin" (when the dub pronunciation is thrown at them). Some people have probably never heard the "Sighin" pronunciation. They could very well be used to saying "Saiyajin" when the term Saiyan comes up. Alternatively, they could simply be used to saying "Sayin" when the S-A-I-Y-A-N spelling comes up due to never hearing it said differently.

Final thoughts: Mike, you're a fucking hypocrite.


Okay, fine.. REAL Final thoughts: I see where you're coming from. I applaud your efforts to inform the community and make steps toward a level of consistency and accuracy unrivaled in Dragon Ball fandom. At times, though, it feels as though you've forgotten many of the little inconsistencies you've made along the way. I also feel that you occasionally underestimate the impact that the Funimation dub has had on fans of the original version. Hell, that stupid F-R-I-E-Z-A spelling of Freeza even made its way into some Japanese merchandise. If a five year old in Japan were first exposed to the franchise via Battle Stadium D.O.N, they would have a product of the Funimation dub stuck in their head despite never seeing it. Fans get exposed to the dub even when they don't really want anything to do with it.

[VegettoEX]

I guess I wasn't including Meri in that statement about regular hosts. I dunno what that means, but that was my thought process .

I just said that I adapted "Saiya-jin" into "Saiyan" in my own speech, so it's not like I'm proclaiming that things can't/don't/won't change. For example, you're right, I used to know a name as "Taurus" -- that was also, ya' know, before I actually saw the movie for myself. And yes, I've forced myself to stop saying "Krillin" aloud and instead adopt "Kuririn", the same way I've been typing the name for longer than I've been able to properly pronounce it -- that's not "hypocritical", that's "fixing consistency".

However, the name is never pronounced this way in the original version.

Erm, sure it is. They're certainly not saying "bull - muh".

My question about where the topic creator lives and hears "Saiyan" pronounced incorrectly (despite never watching the English dub), is a valid one. I don't see why you want to dismiss it. You're probably right about the answers, but that doesn't mean you can answer FOR THEM. I have no idea where they live, so getting some concrete back history on it would be enlightening to me. You seem to want to put this spin on it that somehow turns me into a bad guy, and I just can't wrap my head around it.

The "ego" thing seems really out of left-field (when do I take a position that I "expect" everyone to know everything about me and how I do things? Isn't my long explanation in the second post of this thread showcasing how to pronounce Japanese syllables the exact opposite of that? How could it possibly have been any more kind and comprehensive?), and your call-outs on what you think are hypocritical examples pretty much show that we do everything in our capacity to present things as authoritatively and helpfully as we can, even when that involves changing the way we think about names and how to pronounce them. We're not above (below?) changing our pronunciations and even name spellings when we learn something new about them and what we consider the "best" way to present them to everyone else.

[MugiMikey]

Certain words are just going to sound a little different than their original pronunciations because of that.

Except pronouncing "Gokuu" as "Gowku" has nothing to do with accent, and everything to do with misreading the word and then refusing to pronounce it correctly after being told you're wrong. Talking English doesn't make you incapable of accentuating the last syllable in a word. Do you mispronounce "Peru" too?

But... What about "Dragon Ball"? The title is definitely in English and the Japanese pronounce it "Doragon Boru." They try to say it in a foreign language, yet it's definitely not the right way to pronounce it. So, by your logic, Japanese people are fully capable of pronouncing it correctly, yet they choose not to? Even if they can, why do they get the benefit of the doubt?

[VegettoEX]

You'd have to get a real linguist involved (hey, Julian~), but from what little I know (and trust me, this is very naive -- please feel free to prove me wrong and educate me), it seems as if "the English language" can replicate more sounds from "the Japanese language" than vice versa -- so yes, I see more of an opportunity for us to be able to pronounce "their stuff" correctly than them our own.

That being said, I've heard plenty examples of Japanese folks ending their "L" words (like "Ball") as we would, rather than rounding it off into "ru". It's possible. I know in "WE GOTTA POWER", Kageyama says the "do - ra - go - n - bo - ru" part as-is, but the "Z" is pronounced as "zee" (actually more like a "zeeeaaaaaaaaa"), rather than as "zetto" as it would normally be done. To some degree it's a matter of how much you know and how hard you try.

[MugiMikey]

I know, but you're assuming that everyone who speaks English is capable of replicating a Japanese accent.

I know plenty of my friends who trip over their tongue whenever they try to pronounce "Kuririn."

[VegettoEX]

I'm not talking about "accent" to the point of convincing anyone that I'm a native speaker.

What I mean is that I (and every other English speaker) am/are fully capable of producing the individual sounds that make up both "saiya" and "kuririn" the same way I am fully capable of producing the individual sounds that make up "baño".

[JulieYBM]

I know, but you're assuming that everyone who speaks English is capable of replicating a Japanese accent.

I know plenty of my friends who trip over their tongue whenever they try to pronounce "Kuririn."

'Coo' (cuckoo clock), 'de' (deploy), and 'deen' (James Dean, famous actor!), for the most part make up 'Kuririn'. Most if not all of the Japanese vowels are ones we use in our language.

[Herms]

I'm not talking about "accent" to the point of convincing anyone that I'm a native speaker.

Exactly. You don't have to talk like a Parisian to leave the final 't' in "Chevrolet" silent.

[Adamant]

But... What about "Dragon Ball"? The title is definitely in English and the Japanese pronounce it "Doragon Boru." They try to say it in a foreign language, yet it's definitely not the right way to pronounce it. So, by your logic, Japanese people are fully capable of pronouncing it correctly, yet they choose not to?

Sort of... or, more specifically, they're not saying "Dragon ball", they're saying ドラゴンボール - which, to be fair, is how the word they're pronouncing is generally written. And while ドラゴンボール is indeed how you write "dragon ball" in katakana, that's because it's as close as you can get within the syllabic limits of that system, rather than because it's an exact representation of the pronunciation.

[Eddie]

@VegettoEX I think you took a few of my statements in a way I didn't intend. Sorry! I'll try to better explain some of my points. My comments about a possible explanation for the pronunciation of Saiyan was not intended to be a concrete explanation for any particular person's familiarity with the term. I was just pointing out things that a variety of people have been exposed too. I tried to write in a way that got that across, but I seem to have failed.

The ego comment wasn't meant to be out of left field. I think you did a fantastic job breaking down the word Saiyan in the early portion of your post. The bit of your response that I quoted just seemed odd to me. I assumed you considered Meri to be a regular. Rereading your post, I also misinterpreted the bit about you wondering how one could read the term as "Sayin" with no dub familiarity. The way you worded the part about no regulars using dub terms struck me the wrong way, I think.

To be 100% honest, the whole Bluma pronunciation just comes across the wrong way to me as well. I agree with your pronunciation of Saiyan, but I disagree with your opinion on "Bluma" for various reasons. The name is spoken as Buruma in Japanese. That really doesn't sound like Bluma to me. It certainly doesn't sound like Bulma either, but at least that fits the romanization. Reading it as either Bulma or Bluma basically drops a U from the Japanese reading. I'm aware that Bluma sounds closer to bloomer than Bulma does, but Bulma seems to be the primary romanization of the name. I gave more thoughts on this in the thread for episode 260. Still, though, it's not like I hate you or anything. We simply disagree on a couple things. Besides, discussions would be boring if everyone had the same opinion.

Once again, I apologise for coming across as a rude bastard. I should also add that I'm aware of my occasional problem of getting my intended meaning across. I'm trying to work on that (I've been wanting to do some really in-depth threads for some time now, but I don't feel comfortable enough with my writing). Hopefully I cleared some things up. I wasn't trying to make you into a badguy (the "fucking hypocrite" part was a joke). I was just surprised that you (seemingly) thought "Sighin" was a reading everyone would know.

[Ashura]

- The イ ("i") sounds like the "i" in "macaroni". Just note that it's not a particularly "long" sound, since when you've got "Videl" coming from "biideru", the "ii" sound in there is longer than it is here in "Saiya".

Are you actually saying that you pronounce it macaronai or macaronigh instead of macaroknee? I think using this word as an example is probably a really bad choice for explaining the i sound. In this instance it's almost like using potato for a pronunciation key.