Androids

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Bussani
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Re: Androids

Post by Bussani » Sat Jun 01, 2013 6:01 pm

I think one thing we have to accept right away is that a lot of these terms aren't as solidly defined as we think they are. Even taking dictionary definitions into account, there are two or three opposing opinions when it comes to what counts as a cyborg.
Is "artificial human" the japanese term for android/robot/cyborg because it's the closest term they had in their language?
As a matter of fact, the term jinzoningen isn't generally applied to cyborgs at all. I suppose it is vaguer than "android", as someone pointed out with the Macross example, but a cyborg is more correctly referred to as a kaizoningen (i.e. "modified human", or something along those lines). Even Japanese fans have pointed out that #18 isn't really what they would call an artificial human. "Android" is actually the most normal way of translating jinzoningen, so even though it doesn't accurately describe all of Dr. Gero's creations, that little oddity is also present in Japanese. Because of that, I like the translation because it's accurately inaccurate.
While we're on that subject, is "instantaneous movement" their term for teleportation?
Basically, yes. Shunkan ido literally means instantaneous movement, but it's the generic Japanese term for teleportation, so just calling it teleportation in English makes the most sense. Same as jinzoningen becoming android, really.
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Re: Androids

Post by mister yummy » Sat Jun 01, 2013 7:49 pm

I prefer the term "Artificial Humans'", using human in the Dragonball Sense to include people like Freeza. To me, this term covers everyone from Arale to the Red Ribbon/Gero Androids, to Mecha Freeza and Metal Coola, to Cyborg Tao and Sgt. Major Metalic.

Now, that's a very broad definition covering lots of people. ?There are more narrow definitions each can fit under as well.

Cyborg Tao Pai Pai, Mecha Freeza, #17, #18, and #20 were Cyborgs, a combination of human and machine. The Big Ghetti Star merged with Coola qualifies as well. So does Dr. Whilo. #8, Cell and at most the origional Metal Coola might qualify as well. Semi Perfect and erfect Cell are certainly cyborgs due to the incorporation of #17 and #18.

Metalic, #13, #14, #15, #16 and #20 were fully robotic Androids. Arale too. Most of the Metal Coolas as well.

Cell is possibly a fully bio-mechanical android, but his design may include some machine parts as well.

#8 seems to be built from parts of a reanimated corpse with machine parts inside. This I suppose makes him a cyborg, but it's iffy if the corpse parts still count as human.

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Re: Androids

Post by Bussani » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:59 pm

To be honest, I don't see how people think "artificial human" is vague enough to apply to things like cyborgs. A cyborg isn't an artificial person--it's a person with artificial parts. The exception, of course, being properly artificial cyborgs, e.g. the Terminator (though as I allured to earlier, some people will quibble over the definition of cyborg and say that the Terminator films are wrong to label them as such).
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Re: Androids

Post by Puto » Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:00 pm

Basically what Bussani says. While translating the individual kanji in 'jinzōningen' can get you 'artificial human' (jinzō=man made; ningen=human), it really is just the Japanese word for what people in English call an 'android'.

Honestly, to me, using 'artificial human' is like translating the two parts of 'ice cream' independently of each other.
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Re: Androids

Post by alakazam^ » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:16 am

mister yummy wrote:Metalic, #13, #14, #15, #16 and #20 were fully robotic Androids. Arale too. Most of the Metal Coolas as well.
#20 had Dr. Gero's brain so he might be considered a cyborg as well, I think.
Puto wrote:Basically what Bussani says. While translating the individual kanji in 'jinzōningen' can get you 'artificial human' (jinzō=man made; ningen=human), it really is just the Japanese word for what people in English call an 'android'. Honestly, to me, using 'artificial human' is like translating the two parts of 'ice cream' independently of each other.
Trunks called them cyborgs, though. I'd rather call them "Artifical Humans" because they are all made from different origins and, even if #17 and #18 are essentialy enhanced humans, they don't really seem to go back to their human identity (they don't even change names after the Cell arc).

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Re: Androids

Post by ABED » Sun Jun 02, 2013 7:29 am

Artificial Humans has too many letters.
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Re: Androids

Post by Bussani » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:27 am

alakazam^ wrote:Trunks called them cyborgs, though.
The story does explain that #17 and #18 are technically cyborgs on multiple occasions, but they're still called androids. We'll just have to blame Dr. Gero for that.
I'd rather call them "Artifical Humans" because they are all made from different origins and, even if #17 and #18 are essentialy enhanced humans, they don't really seem to go back to their human identity (they don't even change names after the Cell arc).
True enough, but I still don't see the difference between artificial human and android. They're both equally inaccurate when applied to #17 and #18.
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Re: Androids

Post by alakazam^ » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:05 am

Bussani wrote:
alakazam^ wrote:Trunks called them cyborgs, though.
The story does explain that #17 and #18 are technically cyborgs on multiple occasions, but they're still called androids. We'll just have to blame Dr. Gero for that.
I'm not sure I understand your point. Are you refering to the jinzouningen=android? I was talking about when Trunks uses the English word "cyborg" when he first appears (which, at the time, would have been refering to #19 and #20).

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Re: Androids

Post by Saiga » Thu Jun 06, 2013 6:26 am

I find Android to be a perfect English term for Jinzoningen. It's only as inaccurate as Jinzoningen is, and I wouldn't use Cyborg because that fits Kaizoningen better. I did switch to Artificial Human for a while but went back to Android when I realised it was only more literal, rather than being any more accurate in describing them.
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Re: Androids

Post by rereboy » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:06 am

Bussani wrote:To be honest, I don't see how people think "artificial human" is vague enough to apply to things like cyborgs. A cyborg isn't an artificial person--it's a person with artificial parts.
Its a being enhanced with artificial parts. In the sense that its body is no longer fully natural, the term artificial human is broad enough to include beings like this. But of course, interpretations may vary.

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Re: Androids

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:56 am

I know these are not "official" enough for most fans, but it is an official release lol In Daizenshuu 4 (World Guide), 17-20 are referred to as "Android." Then again, the book does refer to Shen Long as "Shenron," which makes me feel a little better about FUNimation's use of that name.

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Re: Androids

Post by Gaffer Tape » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:01 pm

Wow. I didn't know about the term "gynoid." And I never thought about the andro part meaning specifically that before. Damn. Now I wish I had included this in my Dragon Ball Dissection episode where I covered the topic.
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Re: Androids

Post by Herms » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:41 pm

TheGreatness25 wrote:I know these are not "official" enough for most fans, but it is an official release lol In Daizenshuu 4 (World Guide), 17-20 are referred to as "Android."
Japanese products have just about always rendered jinzou-ningen as "android" when writing stuff out in English (unsurprisingly, since it's the standard way to translate the word). "Artificial Human" is purely something English-speaking fans cooked up.
TheGreatness25 wrote:Then again, the book does refer to Shen Long as "Shenron," which makes me feel a little better about FUNimation's use of that name.
Well, it's sad but not surprising that Japaese speakers aren't any better than English ones when it comes to handling Chinese names.
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Re: Androids

Post by NeoKING » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:09 pm

"Artificial Human" always stood out to me as the biggest, nitpicky term that Japanese fans use to let everyone know that they are fans of the Japanese version. I see nothing wrong with the term Android given that it fits the description of an artificially made human (it's a creation made to resemble a human), nor do I see anything wrong with the term Cyborg, because the Androids are cybernetic organisms (this one fits Cell better).

Basically, in a show where a human-looking species with monkey tails are considered "Aliens," what qualifies as an "Artificial Human" should be the least of your worries. They're all pretty much correct; Artificial Human is just a more roundabout way of saying things.

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Re: Androids

Post by rereboy » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:12 pm

Herms wrote:
TheGreatness25 wrote:I know these are not "official" enough for most fans, but it is an official release lol In Daizenshuu 4 (World Guide), 17-20 are referred to as "Android."
Japanese products have just about always rendered jinzou-ningen as "android" when writing stuff out in English (unsurprisingly, since it's the standard way to translate the word). "Artificial Human" is purely something English-speaking fans cooked up.
Its good to have that cleared up. Thanks.

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Re: Androids

Post by TheGreatness25 » Thu Jun 06, 2013 4:33 pm

Nice clear-up. Now, for my own two cents. Doesn't the term, "Artificial Human" mean the being in question is an artificial creation made to be human? Which is like Android? Which doesn't suit 17, 18, and 20 very well? Because they were in fact human before artificially being altered, which would make them cyborgs?

Now when talking about the US version of the show, I refer to them as Androids. If I'm discussing the Japanese version, I take to calling them Artificial Humans simply because that's how FUNimation has officially translated their name.

From now on, I honestly don't know what I'll call them, but still. Nice to know that FUNimation isn't so "stupid" and completely "inaccurately translated" their names and whatnot. I feel good giving them credit every now and then.

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Re: Androids

Post by NeoKING » Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:46 am

TheGreatness25 wrote:Nice clear-up. Now, for my own two cents. Doesn't the term, "Artificial Human" mean the being in question is an artificial creation made to be human? Which is like Android? Which doesn't suit 17, 18, and 20 very well? Because they were in fact human before artificially being altered, which would make them cyborgs?

Now when talking about the US version of the show, I refer to them as Androids. If I'm discussing the Japanese version, I take to calling them Artificial Humans simply because that's how FUNimation has officially translated their name.

From now on, I honestly don't know what I'll call them, but still. Nice to know that FUNimation isn't so "stupid" and completely "inaccurately translated" their names and whatnot. I feel good giving them credit every now and then.
If it helps, I believe the Viz manga, and some other dubs refer to them as Cyborgs, C18 and C19.

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Re: Androids

Post by Mewzard » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:21 am

Personally speaking, I go with what fits the particular character. 8/16/19? Androids. 17/18/20? Cyborgs. Cell? Well, that's trickier. Bio-Android? Genetically-Modified Lifeform? So much fun to debate what works best in my head, lol.
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