If GT Ended With the Baby Arc ...

[NeoKING]

Would GT as a whole come off as a better series?

[Retan]

The baby arc was the weakest of GT in my opinion, sure it's what it was supposed to be about, but it was so unwatchable that no it wouldn't be remembered as a better series, and I think Dragonball would be looked at as worse overall, but that's just my opinion. The only reason to watch GT is really for closure, and that only happens with the Dark Dragon saga if you ask me.

[Cipher]

As a pretty big fan of GT, I think ending at the Baby arc would have made the whole thing feel like a massive waste of time, and have been to the detriment of the series in terms of where it chose to end.

As the first half of what we ultimately got of GT, though, I think it's quite a bit of fun.

[Vijay]

Trash is trash, regardless when it ends

Baby & Super 17 Arc (for me) are considered peak of GT.

Some crisp animation & cool buildups. Until the next stupid arc filled with Pig, Green Toad & fucking Mole as villains showup.

Baby's ending would've accomplished GT's sole objective: super saiyan 4

But it lacked the punch to make-up for 20+ episodes lousy of searching the Black Star DB's.

Long story short, it'll feel half-baked even by GT's standard

[Hellspawn28]

I would just be "Meh" if GT ended at Bebi. Bebi saga wasn't horrible, but could have been better. If they didn't had Vegeta gotten his mind taken over again and didn't rehash the Garlic Jr. saga with everyone on Earth being under a evil spell then the saga would be better.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Considering one of the major draws for the series for me is the Dragons arc and the way it finally closes out the series...definitely don't think it would have made it better, at least for me. Baby's arc just kind of seems unsure of what it wants to be. First it's about science run amok, then it's about revenge on the Saiyans because Tuffles or whatever they were called. First Baby is the ultimate Machine Mutant, then he's the revived king of the Tuffle people. It all starts off being interesting enough, but in it's attempt to become 'more' interesting and involved with the Saiyan back history, it just ends up feeling a little too much like the second coming of Plan to Eliminate the Saiyans. It arguably does things better than Plan did, but still. The end of the Baby arc also just feels like...well, the ending of an arc. As one more adventure with the cast, it works well enough, but...

Put that up against the Dragons arc, where the Dragon Balls are the focus again after a long time of just being a side thing used for revival. Rather than being about someone trying to get the Balls again though, it changes things up and makes them the problem themselves, rather than something to be gained, or the solution. It makes use of a lot of past events and wishes to show us past events through a different lens (in theory, at least...I make no argument that the Dragons arc is as well executed as it's concept is). On top of all this, it gives us a relatively open ending (where does Goku go? What actually happens to him? Is he really gone for good?) while also feeling more like a conclusion than the original manga had, as well as showing us a glimpse of a future long past our heroes.

I admit it's as flawed as anything else in GT is execution wise, but just looking at it's elements, I don't think GT could have had a better ending than the Dragons arc.

[ABED]

I would just be "Meh" if GT ended at Bebi. Bebi saga wasn't horrible, but could have been better. If they didn't had Vegeta gotten his mind taken over again and didn't rehash the Garlic Jr. saga with everyone on Earth being under a evil spell then the saga would be better.

If you are going to hate on something for being derivative at least have your facts straight, Vegeta's mind was not really taken over by Babidi, plus he allowed that to happen. Baby took over Vegeta's mind and body completely and against Vegeta's will. That's a HUGE difference.

I like the evil dragons arc, especially the idea of the overuse of the DB's having consequences, so no i don't think ending with Baby would've been for the better. I'm also fond of the 4 star dragon.

Baby is the ultimate Machine Mutant, then he's the revived king of the Tuffle people.

I don't think that's being unsure of itself. It's simply showing that there was something deeper than than what the audience or heroes assume.

[DBZAOTA482]

No, it wouldn't. It'd be shit if it ended that soon.

The Bebi Saga sucked for me mainly cuz Bebi annoyed me.

[Gyt Kaliba]

I don't think that's being unsure of itself. It's simply showing that there was something deeper than than what the audience or heroes assume.

I could see that POV, but it always felt to me like as soon as the idea of the Tuffles (seriously, what were they in Japanese? Tsufurian or something like that, right?) came up, they completely abandoned the Machine Mutant angle. So rather than it being a deeper meaning, it just felt like they were dramatically shifting gears. Heck, I don't think Baby is even brought up when Myuu teams up with Gero in the following arc, is he? It's been a long while since I watched, but from what I remember it always felt like Myuu was angry at Goku for destroying his planet of mutants more than anything else.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

I agree. It's all over the place, in-universe and out. We start of with Machine Mutants being created by a scientist who is creating the best, Neo Machine Mutant Bebi...but then it's revealed that Bebi has the Tsufruian King's DNA and was jettisoned into space. Bebi then created Dr. Mu...who then created him and all the other Machine Mutants...and then there's the whole Earth portion of the Universal Tsufruization Plan. Yeah.

It's very likely all this was planned out in advance by the writer(s), but the way they actually went about handling it makes it seem like they weren't sure of what they wanted to do. The reveals weren't exactly horrible storytelling, but they could have been done much better.

[Lord Beerus]

GT would have looked even more like the black sheep of the family of the Dragon Ball franchise if it ended at the Baby arc. I mean, the Baby arc was kind of average and if it ended at that stage it would have felt quite anticlimactic and abrupt.

[Valerius Dover]

I pretty much agree with Gyt Kaliba and Lord Beerus on this one. It works as an arc on its own, but I don't get a finale feel from Episode 40 at all. It works as an arc ending, but as a franchise ending, or even a series ending, it'd fall flat. Even the Dragon Ball Z ending would be better than this.

[Cetra]

I think it could have worked but needed a better and longer setup then.

A final saga about "we poor poor Saiyajin ... we were so unfairly treated by Freeza but .... oh ... yes, we did the same with another race (and who knows how many other races were also eradicated by them)" sounds like something that could work. I mean, it did work. I mean even more, however.

[Bullza]

No it wouldn't. Even though the series is largely considered awful by most people that watched it the most popular parts of the series probably came out of the final saga which introduced SSJ4 Vegeta and Gogeta, Nova Shenron and Omega Shenron.

The Shadow Dragons saga wasn't good by any means but it was the best arc of GT and it did end well.

It had some good ideas but just executed them really badly.

[ABED]

I agree. It's all over the place, in-universe and out. We start of with Machine Mutants being created by a scientist who is creating the best, Neo Machine Mutant Bebi...but then it's revealed that Bebi has the Tsufruian King's DNA and was jettisoned into space. Bebi then created Dr. Mu...who then created him and all the other Machine Mutants...and then there's the whole Earth portion of the Universal Tsufruization Plan. Yeah.

It's very likely all this was planned out in advance by the writer(s), but the way they actually went about handling it makes it seem like they weren't sure of what they wanted to do. The reveals weren't exactly horrible storytelling, but they could have been done much better.

I certainly agree that it's conveluted. It seems more like they were trying to be complex for its own sake.

[Hellspawn28]

It just ends up feeling a little too much like the second coming of Plan to Eliminate the Saiyans.

That's my biggest issue with the Bebi saga is that his backstory is just a rehash of Dr. Raichi's backstory of Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans. Unlike Dr. Raichi, at least Bebi has some level of personality to him. Bebi is the best written villain in GT, but that's not saying much IMO. I also feel like Dr. Myuu relationship with Bebi felt similar to Dr. Gero with Cell in my opinion. The whole Bebi taking over everyone on Earth would have been good if they didn't rehash it from the Garlic Jr. saga with the sacred water curing everyone and Goku's friends are now all against him now under evil mind control. The Bebi saga to me was trying to mix old ideas and new ideas into a bad pot of mess in my opinion. Not the worst saga, but still better then the Super 17 saga and Blackstar Dragon Ball arc in my opinion.

If you are going to hate on something for being derivative at least have your facts straight, Vegeta's mind was not really taken over by Babidi, plus he allowed that to happen. Baby took over Vegeta's mind and body completely and against Vegeta's will. That's a HUGE difference.

He had his mind control by another being nevertheless. I mean GT took the idea of Vegeta being evil again when we just had Majin Vegeta over a year or two ago at the time. We didn't need to have Vegeta as a villain again for the third time in my opinion. Bebi Vegeta is still Vegeta under someone's else control. Heck even his fight with SSj4 Goku did felt like a homage of Goku's fight with Vegeta in the Saiyan saga. Both Bebi Vegeta and Vegeta got their asses kick after Goku power up (Kaioken and SSj4) then turn into a Oozaru. Goku both sagas nearly died if it wasn't for help from the other Z fighters. The only major difference is that Bebi lost while Vegeta ended in his battle in a draw in the Saiyan saga.

[ABED]

But he didn't have his mind controlled in Z. He was in control of his actions. GT didn't take the idea of Vegeta being evil again because it wasn't Vegeta, at no point did anyone call him Vegeta, it was always Baby. In fact, Goku showed concern that by hurting Baby he would hurt/kill Vegeta. Vegeta let Babidi use his magic on him to obtain power, but it was his choice and at no point was he not in control. To the extent that the situations are similar are superficial.

A bike and a car both have wheels but they are very different vehicles, if you get my meaning.

Bebi is the best written villain in GT, but that's not saying much IMO

He's better written than Buu.

[LuckyCat]

Mind control itself is still a pretty lazy plot device to create antagonists. It didn't make the Garlic Junior saga any more popular, so I was really surprised Toei decided to keep milking that cow.

[Herms]

(seriously, what were they in Japanese? Tsufurian or something like that, right?)

Yeah, it's literally ツフル人/Tsufuru-jin (a pun on "fruits"), so "Tsufurian" would be a direct adaptation. Hard to get that pun to really work in English. "Tuffles" is also a valid possible spelling, though it makes it sound like a pun on truffles instead (which I guess halfway works too, even if it's not the original pun).

Myuu is a pun on "mutant", as it happens.

Mind control itself is still a pretty lazy plot device to create antagonists. It didn't make the Garlic Junior saga any more popular, so I was really surprised Toei decided to keep milking that cow.

In fact, the Garlic Junior arc was written by Aya Matsui, who also handled series composition for the first 40 episodes of GT (ie up to the end of the Baby arc), before bowing out for the rest of the series on maternal leave.

[KameRule]

No, because it would be missing GT's greatest redeeming quality, which is the ending.