Anyone interested in discussing the social issues of DB?

[Zenkai]

a book written by uneducated shepherds 2000 years ago.

I'm not sure what shepherd writers you're talking about. The Bible was written around between 1000 BC and 100 AD by various inspired authors. I don't think any biblical scholar, even an atheist one, would call the writers uneducated. After all, most people couldn't even read or write back then.

[Kamiccolo9]

And now homosexuality has literally been compared to cancer. Unironically.

This thread is like watching a slow motion train wreck that rewinds itself a instant before impact, only to trudge forward yet again.

[MrWalnut4]

a book written by uneducated shepherds 2000 years ago.

I'm not sure what shepherd writers you're talking about. The Bible was written around between 1000 BC and 100 AD by various inspired authors. I don't think any biblical scholar, even an atheist one, would call the writers uneducated. After all, most people couldn't even read or write back then.

I'm being hyperbolic of course, but my original point still stands.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Being attracted to the same sex is not a choice or a sin. Homosexual acts are a choice and a sin. There are many disorders and illnesses in this world: OCD, schizophrenia, same-sex attraction, cancer, down syndrome, etc. God does not give people these things.

And it's at this exact point that I'm just entirely done with this conversation, before I say some things that would most likely (and quite fairly) get me banned for life. As someone who just recently lost the man who would have been their father-in-law, and was very much the closest thing I ever had to a father, to pretty much the worst disease imaginable though? Get over your self-righteous self. For anyone to ever equate people in love with THAT, is quite frankly the most disgusting, selfish, asinine thing it's ever been my displeasure to read.

[Zephyr]

But, as a Catholic, I know that sinful behavior is harmful and can lead a person to eternal damnation.

Here's the lynch pin: as a religious follower, you don't know that sinful behavior leads to eternal damnation. You have faith that it does.

You're basing your Ethical assertions on certain Metaphysical assumptions. Assumptions that are among the most arbitrary ones imaginable.

You have to assume:
- God exists (when the conversation and literature would point to the non-existence of God being just as possible)
- The afterlife exists (proving God exists is one thing, but that doesn't prove that the afterlife exists)
- Hell is part of this afterlife (proving the afterlife is one thing, but that doesn't say anything about what it's like)
- The Bible is an accurate account of God's word (Satan is used as a convenient catch-all excuse for anything bad or wrong, and he's supposed to be very tricky; how are you so certain that you're not being decieved?)
- No other religion is correct (look up the problem of symmetry)
- The interpretation that you learned of the Bible is the correct interpretation (this one should go without saying; no interpretation is without holes or errors)

I think it's downright irresponsible and potentially self destructive to base one's own behavior on such broad assumptions so weak to any random assortment of counterarguments. However, that's fine to do, so long as you understand the stakes involved, and are fine with biting the bullet and accepting your position as the less logically justifiable one. If someone truly, fundamentally believes something, to the point where reason cannot sway them from it, then I'll accept that. Just be honest about the intellectual high ground that is being sacrificed, though.

[Adamant]

Even after sharing the Gospel, the man may still choose to live in sin instead of choosing to follow Jesus. After all, the man has free will, and I cannot make him believe the Gospel.

That's the key point, really. We don't even have to get into what's personal belief and what isn't here - the gospel is not some obscure matter nobody but you has heard of, it's extremely common knowledge. That man you see indulge in grave sin? He knows the gospel. Everybody do. It's also almost guaranteed LOTS of people have told him about it after making the same observation as you did. He's made his choice already. Don't be the nth person to come up to him and bug him about something he's heard so many times before and is guaranteed to be extremely tired of being told. If he changes his mind on the matter, he'll come to you, seriously.
And I'm telling you this as a heterosexual Christian.

[Zenkai]

Being attracted to the same sex is not a choice or a sin. Homosexual acts are a choice and a sin. There are many disorders and illnesses in this world: OCD, schizophrenia, same-sex attraction, cancer, down syndrome, etc. God does not give people these things.

And it's at this exact point that I'm just entirely done with this conversation, before I say some things that would most likely (and quite fairly) get me banned for life. As someone who just recently lost the man who would have been their father-in-law, and was very much the closest thing I ever had to a father, to pretty much the worst disease imaginable though? Get over your self-righteous self. For anyone to ever equate people in love with THAT, is quite frankly the most disgusting, selfish, asinine thing it's ever been my displeasure to read.

I'm talking about different disorders, diseases, illnesses, syndromes, etc. I'm not talking about individual people. Sorry for the confusion. I was just trying to say that God doesn't give people any of those things.

Again, sorry for the confusion!

[gogeta97]

Being attracted to the same sex is not a choice or a sin. Homosexual acts are a choice and a sin.

That makes absolutely no sense. What are they supposed to do, just remain celibate their whole life?

There are many disorders and illnesses in this world: OCD, schizophrenia, same-sex attraction, cancer, down syndrome, etc. God does not give people these things.

Ok to be honest, if you want to get really technical with it homosexuality is a "disorder" in the sense that male and female humans do exist to breed with each other. However, we have evolved and become civilized enough to the point where we have determined that our purpose is greater than that. That is why concepts like clothing and consent exist, instead of just walking around naked forcefully breeding with as members of the opposite sex as we can. You could argue that it hurts our species chances of survival but considering the fact that heterosexuals outnumber them by a LOT, we are no where near endangered. Hell, we actually have a problem with over-population right now and you could call homosexuality our way of population control. Also all of these other things you mentioned harm or greatly impede their chances of having a healthy life whereas homosexuality does not. You could argue that it gives people AIDs, but so can a heterosexual lifestyle, among other STDs. Like I've said you can believe what you want, but at the end of the day you are choosing to go against scientific facts and evidence in favor of speculation and an ancient book, which condones slavery and is against haircuts and eating shellfish by the way, that was written by some people thousands of years ago.

[Zenkai]

But, as a Catholic, I know that sinful behavior is harmful and can lead a person to eternal damnation.

Here's the lynch pin: as a religious follower, you don't know that sinful behavior leads to eternal damnation. You have faith that it does.

You're basing your Ethical assertions on certain Metaphysical assumptions. Assumptions that are among the most arbitrary ones imaginable.

You have to assume:
- God exists (when the conversation and literature would point to the non-existence of God being just as possible)
- The afterlife exists (proving God exists is one thing, but that doesn't prove that the afterlife exists)
- Hell is part of this afterlife (proving the afterlife is one thing, but that doesn't say anything about what it's like)
- The Bible is an accurate account of God's word (Satan is used as a convenient catch-all excuse for anything bad or wrong, and he's supposed to be very tricky; how are you so certain that you're not being decieved?)
- No other religion is correct (look up the problem of symmetry)
- The interpretation that you learned of the Bible is the correct interpretation (this one should go without saying; no interpretation is without holes or errors)

I think it's downright irresponsible and potentially self destructive to base one's own behavior on such broad assumptions so weak to any random assortment of counterarguments. However, that's fine to do, so long as you understand the stakes involved, and are fine with biting the bullet and accepting your position as the less logically justifiable one. If someone truly, fundamentally believes something, to the point where reason cannot sway them from it, then I'll accept that. Just be honest about the intellectual high ground that is being sacrificed, though.

Human beings, by their very nature, are religious beings. No matter where you look throughout the history of humanity, man has known that something greater than himself exists.

So if a person accepts that something greater than him/herself exists, they should want to know which religion, etc. is the correct one.

I believe that the Catholic faith is the correct religion. The Catholic Church goes all the way back to when Jesus Himself founded it on St. Peter. I think the writers of the New Testament are trustworthy. If Catholicism was a made-up sham, why would all the apostles of Christ allow themselves to be killed for the faith if they had just made everything up?

[Zephyr]

Human beings, by their very nature, are religious beings. No matter where you look throughout the history of humanity, man has known that something greater than himself exists.

So if a person accepts that something greater than him/herself exists, they should want to know which religion, etc. is the correct one.

I believe that the Catholic faith is the correct religion. The Catholic Church goes all the way back to when Jesus Himself founded it on St. Peter. I think the writers of the New Testament are trustworthy. If Catholicism was a made-up sham, why would all the apostles of Christ allow themselves to be martyred if they had just made everything up?

Belief in something does not entail that said thing actually exists. Believing in Santa Clause doesn't make him real. It's fine to believe in things "greater than yourself", and that Catholic faith is the "true religion".

I'm just saying that you have no argument to show that others who do not feel that way should. At least, not the extent that atheism, agnosticism, Buddhism, Sikhism, etc. are any more or less untenable positions.

[ABED]

I think making better use of Dragon Ball's female characters is more doable than without sacrificing story for the sake of "social justice" or simply so girls can feel represented.

So if a person accepts that something greater than him/herself exists, they should want to know which religion, etc. is the correct one.

Inherent in religion is faith and the supernatural. I reject both, so your assertion is incorrect that humans are religious by nature. When you say something greater than man, what do you mean?

[Soppa Saia People]

Being attracted to the same sex is not a choice or a sin. Homosexual acts are a choice and a sin. There are many disorders and illnesses in this world: OCD, schizophrenia, same-sex attraction, cancer, down syndrome, etc. God does not give people these things.

And it's at this exact point that I'm just entirely done with this conversation, before I say some things that would most likely (and quite fairly) get me banned for life. As someone who just recently lost the man who would have been their father-in-law, and was very much the closest thing I ever had to a father, to pretty much the worst disease imaginable though? Get over your self-righteous self. For anyone to ever equate people in love with THAT, is quite frankly the most disgusting, selfish, asinine thing it's ever been my displeasure to read.

Sorry for your lose Kailba, I recently just found out my great uncle has cancer sadly.
But yeah comparing gay sex to cancer is flat out stupidity and right now it's getting to the point of being offensive.

[tomwew]

this thread is the perfect indicator as to why there's no originality in storytelling and no AAA+ comedians in the west today. social media is cancerous. the self righteousness on both sides "all black people and all women and all gays are offensive because they don't have the personalities i say they should have" to "gays are degenerate because the lord jesus."

it's so sad that this is what the internet became. what society's become. Red Dwarf (at least up to S6) couldn't be made today, ace ventura's a "transphobe" and dragonball, a gag series where a regularly naked twelve year old trains with a pervert would NEVER see the light of day. I hope all the high horse riding reggressives in this thread realise if they had their way there would be no dragonball, there would be no Kanzenshuu, no dbz abridged and no fun. stereotypes can be funny, or tongue in cheek, or satirical, or a parody, or ignorant or thoughtless or an accident or simply be perceived by the viewer. or they can be a lazy writer's best friend. character's irish? he's drinkin guinness. Italian lady? she's wearing a frilly dress and eating linguini. russian? vodka! boom you've saved 36 seconds of exposition.

before the thrall of social media, companies let the figures decide. "well 300 angry people from the liberated womyn front wrote in to say chi chi should become the main character or we're sexist but the viewership is great so i guess they're just a minority." To "well 60,000 "people" on twitter linked "end misogyny" to our sponsors because bulma got slapped and we're losing money so get toriyama in here and we'll tell HIM what dragonball is about."

you are the death of originality and free thought. watch eddie murphy's delirious or raw and take the advice he says richard pryor gave to an uppity parent complaining about his "abhorrent" content, "have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up"

I hope goku black is literally an evil black goku. i hope it riles certain people up. i hope the black fanbase really take to him and start turning up at cons as black goku. it might actually do some good.

[gogeta97]

this thread is the perfect indicator as to why there's no originality in storytelling and no AAA+ comedians in the west today. social media is cancerous. the self righteousness on both sides "all black people and all women and all gays are offensive because they don't have the personalities i say they should have" to "gays are degenerate because the lord jesus."

it's so sad that this is what the internet became. what society's become. Red Dwarf (at least up to S6) couldn't be made today, ace ventura's a "transphobe" and dragonball, a gag series where a regularly naked twelve year old trains with a pervert would NEVER see the light of day. I hope all the high horse riding reggressives in this thread realise if they had their way there would be no dragonball, there would be no Kanzenshuu, no dbz abridged and no fun. stereotypes can be funny, or tongue in cheek, or satirical, or a parody, or ignorant or thoughtless or an accident or simply be perceived by the viewer. or they can be a lazy writer's best friend. character's irish? he's drinkin guinness. Italian lady? she's wearing a frilly dress and eating linguini. russian? vodka! boom you've saved 36 seconds of exposition.

before the thrall of social media, companies let the figures decide. "well 300 angry people from the liberated womyn front wrote in to say chi chi should become the main character or we're sexist but the viewership is great so i guess they're just a minority." To "well 60,000 "people" on twitter linked "end misogyny" to our sponsors because bulma got slapped and we're losing money so get toriyama in here and we'll tell HIM what dragonball is about."

you are the death of originality and free thought. watch eddie murphy's delirious or raw and take the advice he says richard pryor gave to an uppity parent complaining about his "abhorrent" content, "have a coke and a smile and shut the fuck up"

I hope goku black is literally an evil black goku. i hope it riles certain people up. i hope the black fanbase really take to him and start turning up at cons as black goku. it might actually do some good.

I'm not exactly sure where you got anything besides the "gays are degenerate because the lord jesus" bit, but I haven't been seeing a lot of "liberal regressives on their high horse" at all in this thread. I hate them as much as the next guy, but frankly your post reads like you found one or two posts you didn't like and said "Yep that's it, that's whole thread." and got up on YOUR high horse(although you could argue I'm on mine right now). Besides that you do have a pretty good point.

[Zenkai]

But yeah comparing gay sex to cancer is flat out stupidity and right now it's getting to the point of being offensive.

Cancer is a disease. Same-sex attraction is a disorder. Diseases and disorders are not the same thing. God doesn't give anyone either of these things.

And to reiterate what I said earlier: having same-sex attraction isn't a choice and it isn't a sin. Choosing to have gay sex, however, is a choice and a sin.

I feel that a lot of people have not recognized this distinction.

Again, sorry for any confusion as to what I was getting at!

[gogeta97]

But yeah comparing gay sex to cancer is flat out stupidity and right now it's getting to the point of being offensive.

Cancer is a disease. Same-sex attraction is a disorder. They're not the same thing. God doesn't give anyone either of these things.

How do you know that though?

[tomwew]

I'm not exactly sure where you got anything besides the "gays are degenerate because the lord jesus" bit, but I haven't been seeing a lot of "liberal regressives on their high horse" at all in this thread. I hate them as much as the next guy, but frankly your post reads like you found one or two posts you didn't like and said "Yep that's it, that's whole thread." and got up on YOUR high horse(although you could argue I'm on mine right now). Besides that you do have a pretty good point.

i did ramble and i suppose i am on my own high horse. As for the "regressiveness" it is only a few (quite vocal) users i take umbridge with. Those who cry sexism when chi chi is nagging or claim racism if a character has big lips, ignoring characters (#18, arale, oob, every light skinned character with big lips) to fit THEIR pre conceived notions.

Plenty of women love dragon ball and plenty of black folk too, so when i see these demands for "better representation" or claims that characters with exaggerated personalities or behaviours outside of the western norm "have no place" it smacks of entitled adult children (pot calling kettle black i know) telling an artist how to art. i hate it. Suppose it "triggers" me ha.

this is toriyama's story. let him tell it. If he wants to write a serious and deep love story between goten and trunks go for it ZENKAI can stop watching if he wants. on the flipside if he wants to make a gay character who's effeminate and promiscuous go for it we can laugh it off or stop watching. the viewership and the merchandise sales will decide.

[gogeta97]

I'm not exactly sure where you got anything besides the "gays are degenerate because the lord jesus" bit, but I haven't been seeing a lot of "liberal regressives on their high horse" at all in this thread. I hate them as much as the next guy, but frankly your post reads like you found one or two posts you didn't like and said "Yep that's it, that's whole thread." and got up on YOUR high horse(although you could argue I'm on mine right now). Besides that you do have a pretty good point.

i did ramble and i suppose i am on my own high horse. As for the "regressiveness" it is only a few (quite vocal) users i take umbridge with. Those who cry sexism when chi chi is nagging or claim racism if a character has big lips, ignoring characters (#18, arale, oob, every light skinned character with big lips) to fit THEIR pre conceived notions.

Plenty of women love dragon ball and plenty of black folk too, so when i see these demands for "better representation" or claims that characters with exaggerated personalities or behaviours outside of the western norm "have no place" it smacks of entitled adult children (pot calling kettle black i know) telling an artist how to art. i hate it. Suppose it "triggers" me ha.

this is toriyama's story. let him tell it. If he wants to write a serious and deep love story between goten and trunks go for it ZENKAI can stop watching if he wants. on the flipside if he wants to make a gay character who's effeminate and promiscuous go for it we can laugh it off or stop watching. the viewership and the merchandise sales will decide.

Yeah that's one of the biggest issues I take with those kinds of people is censorship of art. People should be able to make beautiful or vile art if they want. Anyone can critique it if they want or refuse to help the artist show it off but at the end of the day, the people who bully an artist to the point where they attempt suicide for drawing "problematic" artwork.

Also I do find it kind of funny that white cartoonists mostly draw black characters as generic as possible, whereas black cartoonists aren't afraid to exaggerate a bit. I understand why but I mean there is a difference between this:
http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/the ... 1128162251

and this: http://www.cartoonbrew.com/wp-content/u ... min480.jpg

[Hujio]

Some of the personal views and thoughts being thrown out in this thread are not okay, are completely offensive, will not be tolerated, and are not welcome here! This has gotten way out of hand and it downright makes me sad as a human, and as a person. Any additional gay-bashing in this thread, of any kind, will be swiftly met with repercussions and no questions asked. I don't care if you agree, but this stops now! I'm serious, stop it! You are better than this.

[tomwew]

Some of the personal views and thoughts being thrown out in this thread are not okay, are completely offensive, will not be tolerated, and are not welcome here! This has gotten way out of hand and it downright makes me sad as a human, and as a person. Any additional gay-bashing in this thread, of any kind, will be swiftly met with repercussions and no questions asked. I don't care if you agree, but this stops now! I'm serious, stop it! You are better than this.

instead of banning or silencing homophobes argue against them dude. show the logic and rationality of your side then they can shout at the wind or quote their magic infallible books all they want. This IS the thread for this discussion and you can't have a discussion with only one side.