Is Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt at this point?

[VegettoEX]

Putting all of that on Toriyama is a bit much though. The Trunks arc was developed based on a suggestion from the production side. We know that several ideas were kicking around (was it at least three? forget the source on this) regarding the plot for the latest movie, and that was clearly guided by the production side as well.

At last check-in (which was... uhh... 2003 ), Toriyama didn’t remember who Broli was, so I don’t see him pining for over a decade to bring said character back.

Left to his own devices, you get something like Jaco.

Is SHUEISHA and TOEI and BANDAI NAMCO’s collective vision for Dragon Ball creatively bankrupt...? Maybe? Probably? Or just conservative? Which is a distinction without a difference maybe?

[Thunderbird]

Lol so even the extremely lazy idea of just bringing back old popular characters wasn't even his own idea.

Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball, reduced to just going along with the terrible and lazy ideas given to him by someone else even though he can't even remember who they're referring to.

[goku the krump dancer]

He doesn't just " Go with the flow" like that, if he did Battle of Gods would be a totally different movie.

[JulieYBM]

Lol so even the extremely lazy idea of just bringing back old popular characters wasn't even his own idea.

Toriyama, the creator of Dragon Ball, reduced to just going along with the terrible and lazy ideas given to him by someone else even though he can't even remember who they're referring to.

I'm all for punching up at the wealthy but this is some shoddy punching that doesn't even aim at anything of substance. Punch up because he evades taxes not because he writes a couple of ideas for a cartoon you don't like.

[WittyUsername]

Z had original movie villains, none of the villains were brought back from the series out of a lack of ideas.

Broly wasn't brought back due to a lack of ideas. Broly was brought back because he was popular. The same could maybe be argued for Frieza.

And every other Z movie villain besides Broly, was basically some copy of a pre-existing canon villain.

Dr. Wheelo was pretty original.

[SupremeKai25]

But that's what you said

It wasn't, but we'll move on from that seeing as you feel the need to break every word of my post down into separate points.

Not really, more breaking down how you are contradictory.

In that case, they were still bringing back villains that had been created originally for the movies. Even though they brought Cooler and Broly back they were still original characters.

But that proves that the mentality is the same. Once they created Broly and Cooler they made 3 movies in which they no longer bothered to create new villains and just brought them back. Even other movies, where they created new villains, weren't that original. Lord Slug and Android 13 are not very original at all. They barely have any personality and their design is meh.

No Resurrection F isn't part of Super but it is still new Dragon Ball.

And yet you said that Super is guilty of bringing back villains twice in movies, Freeza and Broly. So if RoF counts as a "mistake" of Super, then BoG also falls under Super and thus they introduced Beerus and Whis. Otherwise, Super only brought back a previous villain in a movie once.

Well he isn't that popular, there's no if about it.

Since you have empirical evidence and statistics of what you're talking about, I'll concede.

He's also not that creative, not his design, not his wish for immortality and not his motives.

He's a Kai, he's not supposed to have a creative design, he's not some special abomination who existed since the dawn of history or was created by the cells of all the greatest warriors in the universe. No other villain achieved immortality aside from Garlic Jr. And his motives are something that no other DB villain had.

No it wasn't, the old Spirit Bombs were mostly solitary efforts that resulted in failure. The one against Buu may have been another Spirit Bomb but the way it was formed and executed made it radically different entirely from the one in the Saiyan arc.

The Spirit Bomb against Freeza was created from the energy of Namek and the surrunding planet, just like the Spirit Bomb against Buu was created from the energy of an entire planet. There was even a similar dynamic with Piccolo buying time for Goku vs Freeza and Vegeta buying time vs Buu.

What were these new elements in the Trunks arc?

Time rings, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan Rage, SSB Fusion, Zeno button, the relationship between Angels and Destroyers, and that's off the top of my head. All of which are new elements, even if some were executed badly.

The other thing isn't that creative

Creating 80 characters, many of which have unique design, personality, and techniques is not creative? 80 mortals + all the deities of said universes, who all have some special personality trait that sets them apart.

we've had red Goku, blue Goku, silver Goku, pink Goku with a black gi, Beerus but he's fat, Whis but he's female, a couple badly designed saiyans, a different coloured Frieza, Beerus but he's a rabbit, a completely generic grey alien, Broly but he's wearing an ear etc.

Characters don't need to have 100 additions to have an iconic and good-looking design. Goku Black is proof of that.

Otherwise he ain't got it no more. I bet even that Broly movie only got made because some producer told him Broly was popular so he figured he'd just go with that.

You mean to tell me they're in it for money? I can't believe it.

Oh, so that's why they brought Broly back instead of Garlic Jr.! /s

And again, that mentality didnt' start with modern DB. Refer to the Broly trilogy, which is just a trilogy milking off a popular character. At least they tried to make a coherent story with new Broly, the old Broly trilogy literally had no story. They kill Broly with a punch, but wait he survived inside some ice, but no he died again, and now they are fighting his clone in some remote island? What a story arc.

[Psajdak]

Dr. Wheelo was pretty original.

No one cares about that guy.

[Xeogran]

Dr. Wheelo was pretty original.

No one cares about that guy.

But that doesn't disprove his point.

[Psajdak]

Dunno, he just looks like another brain in a robot saturday cartoon villain to me.

[Thunderbird]

Not really, more breaking down how you are contradictory.

You're just waffling. Missing the overall point to break down everything into weak bite sized counter points.

In that case, they were still bringing back villains that had been created originally for the movies. Even though they brought Cooler and Broly back they were still original characters.

Again missing the point, they brought back Frieza in the series, Cell, Vegeta too. That's not the problem, again those were short crappy movies that they rushed out at more than one a year while at the same time still continuing to make the series too, yet they still made new villains.

These last two movies, can't even bother to make new villains, despite Toriyama himself being heavily involved, having far more time to work on it and it being the primary focus.

And yet you said that Super is guilty of bringing back villains twice in movies, Freeza and Broly. So if RoF counts as a "mistake" of Super, then BoG also falls under Super and thus they introduced Beerus and Whis. Otherwise, Super only brought back a previous villain in a movie once.

Semantics again, it's just the last two movies, the thread isn't specifically about Dragon Ball Super. You can include Beerus and Whis if you want but they still aren't characters that Toriyama came up with and it was still seven years ago.

Since you have empirical evidence and statistics of what you're talking about, I'll concede.

He's a Kai, he's not supposed to have a creative design, he's not some special abomination who existed since the dawn of history or was created by the cells of all the greatest warriors in the universe. No other villain achieved immortality aside from Garlic Jr. And his motives are something that no other DB villain had.

You're over hyping the character out of fanboy bias. Him being a Kai is no excuse, this picture here shows how widely different they can look.

Spoiler:

https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/dra ... 0416132412

And yet despite those possibilities, Zamasu was essentially just a taller green Shin. No other villain having achieved immortality aside from another villain....means it's been done before and so is not creative. His motives were very shallow and for the most part boiled down to just killing mortals and then main characters, like a bunch of villains.

The Spirit Bomb against Freeza was created from the energy of Namek and the surrunding planet, just like the Spirit Bomb against Buu was created from the energy of an entire planet.

Plus the entire extra dynamic of them using humans so that they could finally stand up for themselves for once and the heroes and humanity combined overcoming Buu...which they then did yet again with Zamasu, except worse.

Time rings, Super Saiyan Rosé, Super Saiyan Rage, SSB Fusion, Zeno button, the relationship between Angels and Destroyers, and that's off the top of my head.

That's weak. Time Rings are just an alternative for the Time Machine. Pink Super Saiyan Blue which is just Blue Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Rage....people don't even understand what it is, just a random uncreative looking transformation. Blue Vegito is just the reused Vegito but with blue hair, no more creative than if I said have Ultra Instinct Vegito which would be the same thing with silver hair. Zeno Button...woo.

The relationship between Angels and Destroyers, you sure you don't mean between Kai and Destroyers? A bit of added lore I suppose.

Creating 80 characters, many of which have unique design, personality, and techniques is not creative?

Not particularly, of those characters how many truly have a good design? How many have actual interesting abilities? Even Jiren himself didn't have an interesting personality. They were mainly throwaway characters, unmemorable, how many can people even name? It's not hard to make a character and give them a basic ability.

You mean to tell me they're in it for money? I can't believe it.

So you're saying that they can't make money off of original ideas and characters anymore like what was originally the case back in the manga, they have to bring back old ideas to do that now?

Imagine if back after the Frieza arc, Toriyama thought "Nah we won't create this new story involving the Androids, King Piccolo was fairly popular so lets bring him back but make him more powerful than before. The Buu arc? Nah that's too much work, lets brings back Raditz"

At least they tried to make a coherent story with new Broly, the old Broly trilogy literally had no story.

Lol the new Broly movie doesn't have a story either. Two of men Frieza's men find Broly and Paragus, Frieza's like "Lets just go and take them to see Goku and Vegeta" then its like 45 minutes of fighting involving some brain dead retard who does nothing but grunt and scream for the rest of the movie. "Hey Frieza you brought this dangerous being to our planet to kill us and almost destroyed the planet...but I guess you can leave peacefully."

The only thing even resembling a story was again ideas they had to take from something else, Minus.

[Melee_Sovereign]

But at least they bothered to make new characters, even if it was some movie version of a canon villain

I don't necessarily see that as a good thing. I rather them just reuse an established character than give us a carbon copy.

[Melee_Sovereign]

Z had original movie villains, none of the villains were brought back from the series out of a lack of ideas.

Broly wasn't brought back due to a lack of ideas. Broly was brought back because he was popular. The same could maybe be argued for Frieza.

And every other Z movie villain besides Broly, was basically some copy of a pre-existing canon villain.

Dr. Wheelo was pretty original.

True. He was pretty cool actually. Don't know why he's not more popular.

[JulieYBM]

At least they tried to make a coherent story with new Broly, the old Broly trilogy literally had no story.

Lol the new Broly movie doesn't have a story either. Two of men Frieza's men find Broly and Paragus, Frieza's like "Lets just go and take them to see Goku and Vegeta" then its like 45 minutes of fighting involving some brain dead retard who does nothing but grunt and scream for the rest of the movie. "Hey Frieza you brought this dangerous being to our planet to kill us and almost destroyed the planet...but I guess you can leave peacefully."

The only thing even resembling a story was again ideas they had to take from something else, Minus.

Hey honey, how about we not use 'retard' as an insult. Thanks.

[ABED]

I don't think Toriyama came up with Whis and Beerus, but aren't they very different in the movies and Super than how they were conceived?

[SupremeKai25]

Again missing the point, they brought back Frieza in the series, Cell, Vegeta too. That's not the problem, again those were short crappy movies that they rushed out at more than one a year while at the same time still continuing to make the series too, yet they still made new villains.

These last two movies, can't even bother to make new villains, despite Toriyama himself being heavily involved, having far more time to work on it and it being the primary focus.

Aside from the fact that half-assing movies is a serious thing, you're again missing the point that bringing back a new character and developing them a lot can be just as good as creating a new character in the first place, if not even better. I'd rather take Super Broly than any of those cheap one-note movie villains like Lord Slug or Android 13.

Semantics again, it's just the last two movies, the thread isn't specifically about Dragon Ball Super.

So if the thread isn't specifically about Super, why did you have a problem with me "bringing down Z"?

You can include Beerus and Whis if you want but they still aren't characters that Toriyama came up with and it was still seven years ago.

Toriyama basically created the character of Beerus as we know him today, so yes he pretty much created him.

You're over hyping the character out of fanboy bias. Him being a Kai is no excuse, this picture here shows how widely different they can look.

Lol, that picture only shows that you don't have a lot of freedom with Kais, because they're all expected to wear the same outfit, have the same hair color and general hair style, and same eyes. And no, Zamasu doesn't look like Shin at all. Their height, clothes, and hairstyle are all different. I can't see how you could mix them. His goals were unique as well. He is the villain, of course he wants to kill the protagonists, name me one villain who doesnt. Yet at the same time he very clearly had different intentions than Freeza, Cell, and Buu.

Just because another villain already achieved immortality doesn't mean Zamasu doing it is not creative, because following that logic, again, the most famous moments of Z were not creative at all. Freeza killing Krillin? Pfff, that was already done back in DB. Gohan transforming because a loved one died? So unoriginal, Goku already did it.

Plot points are repeated several times, that alone most certainly does not prove that the story is not creative.

Plus the entire extra dynamic of them using humans so that they could finally stand up for themselves for once and the heroes and humanity combined overcoming Buu...which they then did yet again with Zamasu, except worse.

Which they had already done with Freeza, so it wasn't anything original.

Also, I mean, your words are touching and all, but that Genkidama wasn't doing shit to Buu despite all the power that the humans poured into it. He was actually pushing it back, he was obliterated only after Dende used the third wish to restore Goku's strength.

That's weak. Time Rings are just an alternative for the Time Machine.

How is that a minus? Are alternatives not allowed in a story?

Pink Super Saiyan Blue which is just Blue Super Saiyan.

Rosé not only looks very different from Blue, but has a different explanation as well, which ties into Zamasu being a deity. They are not the same form at all.

Super Saiyan Rage....people don't even understand what it is, just a random uncreative looking transformation.

Most certainly more creative than SS2, which is barely different from SS1. And again, new element introduced by that arc.

Blue Vegito is just the reused Vegito but with blue hair

Lol, following that logic SS1 Goku was nothing creative either because it's literally just reused Goku with blonde hair.

The relationship between Angels and Destroyers, you sure you don't mean between Kai and Destroyers? A bit of added lore I suppose.

No, between Angels and Destroyers, it's in that arc that it was revealed that Angels are tied to the Destroyers. Iirc, it was already mentioned before the Future Trunks arc that Destroyers and Kais are linked.

Not particularly, of those characters how many truly have a good design? How many have actual interesting abilities?

Many of them have unique design and abilities, such as U2 with their love abilities and magical girl transformations. All the universes have their own unique themes and aesthetics. Even the Gods reflect that. The U2 Destroyer loves beauty, or the U3 Kai is a very methodical and sensible person.

So you're saying that they can't make money off of original ideas and characters anymore like what was originally the case back in the manga, they have to bring back old ideas to do that now?

No, I'm saying that there's nothing wrong if they want to make money off of a popular character, since that's what they've been doing since the times of Z.

Imagine if back after the Frieza arc, Toriyama thought "Nah we won't create this new story involving the Androids, King Piccolo was fairly popular so lets bring him back but make him more powerful than before. The Buu arc? Nah that's too much work, lets brings back Raditz"

Funny, I think a lot of people would like that, since King Piccolo and Raditz were beloved villains whom a lot have argued should come back in some way. Raditz for certain, I have seen many people complain how he died at the beginning of Z.

Lol the new Broly movie doesn't have a story either. Two of men Frieza's men find Broly and Paragus, Frieza's like "Lets just go and take them to see Goku and Vegeta" then its like 45 minutes of fighting involving some brain dead retard who does nothing but grunt and scream for the rest of the movie. "Hey Frieza you brought this dangerous being to our planet to kill us and almost destroyed the planet...but I guess you can leave peacefully."

Freeza made an alliance with Paragus and Broly because they all wanted revenge on Vegeta and Freeza admired them for their resourcefulness and strength. Also Freeza was brought back by Beerus and Whis after he saved the universe in the ToP, if Gogeta killed him he might have disappointed Beerus and you'd be complaining that they brought him back thrice just to die again on Earth.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

It's not creatively bankrupt, BoG was totally fresh for the franchise. However the rest of Super likes to redo old villains/ideas or tackle ideas fans have been asking for (eg. Evil Goku). Even this new Moro arc isn't totally new, since Moro as a villain is pretty much King Piccolo meets Cell/Buu.

However there's plenty of new ideas scattered in those arcs. The whole idea of Goku and Vegeta getting new transformations based on their fighting styles for example. Zeno and the organization of Angels. Plenty of new stuff for them to build off of for future arcs.

Man I don't understand this massive conception that people have about BoG being "fresh" there is nothing fresh about BoG. The story telling is done almost exactly like Z by having Goku missing to give side cast on screen relevance to which they didn't. The entire middle section of the film is pointless. IGN called it filler and I totally get that. They didn't even introduce the GoD properly that had to be fixed in the retelling by them showing him being GoD before he even goes to Earth. One of the few genuine plot points the film had SSG once achieved lasted barely 5 seconds and the big one the world building.... which is one second of dialogue and the end of the film and people somehow praise an entire film for world building lmao. The "fights" in the film except for Shida's corrected cut were total shit so not like the film has that going for it either.

BoG is such a piece trash I genuinely hate it more than Evolution.

[Melee_Sovereign]

I don't think Toriyama came up with Whis and Beerus, but aren't they very different in the movies and Super than how they were conceived?

He came up with the Beerus as we know him. The original concept of Beerus is so different that you might as well consider him a different character.

Beerus conceptually started out as this villainous reptilianoid creature that can spread evil like a virus ('Birus' being derived from the word "virus"). The screenwriter of Battle of Gods came up with this. Toriyama decided to change this and make Beerus catlike (based on his pet cornish rex cat), and make him a God of Destruction. He also mistakenly though Beerus was a pun on beer.

I think he came up with Whis on his own though.

[ABED]

It's not creatively bankrupt, BoG was totally fresh for the franchise. However the rest of Super likes to redo old villains/ideas or tackle ideas fans have been asking for (eg. Evil Goku). Even this new Moro arc isn't totally new, since Moro as a villain is pretty much King Piccolo meets Cell/Buu.

However there's plenty of new ideas scattered in those arcs. The whole idea of Goku and Vegeta getting new transformations based on their fighting styles for example. Zeno and the organization of Angels. Plenty of new stuff for them to build off of for future arcs.

Man I don't understand this massive conception that people have about BoG being "fresh" there is nothing fresh about BoG. The story telling is done almost exactly like Z by having Goku missing to give side cast on screen relevance to which they didn't. The entire middle section of the film is pointless. IGN called it filler and I totally get that. They didn't even introduce the GoD properly that had to be fixed in the retelling by them showing him being GoD before he even goes to Earth. One of the few genuine plot points the film had SSG once achieved lasted barely 5 seconds and the big one the world building.... which is one second of dialogue and the end of the film and people somehow praise an entire film for world building lmao. The "fights" in the film except for Shida's corrected cut were total shit so not like the film has that going for it either.

BoG is such a piece trash I genuinely hate it more than Evolution.

It's not a plot driven film, but it's so much fun, it's like hanging out with friends you haven't seen in years.
- What constitutes properly showing him being a GoD?
- Well, world building is boring, and the point of the bit of dialog at the end isn't egregious world building, it ties into the theme of there always being someone stronger. Goku has more places to explore, and more mountains to climb.

No way in hell Evolution is better.

[Cursed Lemon]

I don't know how the answer could possibly be anything other than, "yeah mostly". That doesn't mean that everything Dragon Ball has done since the Cell Games is bad, it means that stuff is getting rehashed a lot. Tired doesn't automatically mean bad. Super Broly was a great way to bring the Broly story into the 21st century, but it's still rehashing yet another character, and they even managed to rope Freeza into it. DB is effectively the WWE at this point, leaning on old established characters and ideas to prop up the newer ones, and for the most part decently succeeding at it - yet its popularity will never be as rabidly all-consuming as it was back in the heyday, because the phenomena and formula of DB has crested and troughed.

[ABED]

To go with the WWE analogy, if they can't get you with quality, they'll get you with quantity.