Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

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Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Vegetto(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:39 am

I have been wanting to ask this for a while now, so here goes.

So I know that in the anime, Vegetto is called, well, Vegetto, but spelled "Vegito", which doesn't make sense, but in reality it really shouldn't be Vegetto, it should be something like "Veget"? How does one fix that? Like, would it be better to have Kakarot be "Kakarotto"? Just to keep in line with the names? Or does it somewhat lose it's name pun in English?

Then there's the manga, the Viz manga, where they call Vegetto "Vegerot", which in my head I was misreading it as "Vegetto-rot", but now that I looked closer it's actually "Veggie-rot", this actually kind of shocked me. This brings be to my next question, again, how would one accurately "translate" this? Because carrot isn't "carrotto" in English, so I'm struggling to find a way to make sense of this without losing the name puns, I mean, would people still pick up on it being a pun on carrot? Or is it just one of those things that for the sake of consistency to keep Kakarot as "Kakarotto"? Because Vegerot just sounds really odd to me, even worse, Veget. Is Vegerot technically accurate? Or is Veget accurate if we take Vegeta and Kakarot and fuse them into Vegetto?


Thanks.
Last edited by Aim on Thu Aug 20, 2020 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:12 am

Vegetto is the correct spelling that reads like Vegito by convention. I read Vegetto with an open second 'e' and an almost silent first one. Vejeh-toe when it's supposed to be Veh-jee-toh. The reasoning behind this name is the same as Kefla's: translate it directly into English from its written Japanese form that uses characters that we can read:

Bejitto -> Vegito.
Kefura -> Kefla.

In translation, however, there needs to be an extra layer, one that makes its names conform to the pun of the original, whenever it doesn't make sense in our language. Since Kale and Caulifla are written like that, Kafla should be the appropriate spelling, with a Kay-fla pronunciation by convention. It's not by nature of reading, but we can accept Kefla, right?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:26 am

Yes, there's absolutely no reason why a translation should NOT use the Kakarotto/Kakarrotto spelling unless the translator is completely ignorant of Vegetto's existence.

"Vegito" is just a nonsense spelling made by ignorant people that thought Toriyama was just making up names by mashing random syllables together and doesn't need to be given any thought beyond that. It's the same people that gave you garbage like "Cui" and whatever else.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Robo4900 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:16 am

"Vegerot" is a better English rendering of the intent of the fusion name either way (Vegeta + Kakarot. Similar to how the original is Vegeta + Kakarotto). The ending syllable in the Japanese doesn't apply here, so either you have a name that doesn't actually sound like the two combined, as is the case for Vegetto, or you adapt it, and put up with some people complaining that it doesn't sound right (because they're not used to it) or that it's inaccurate (which it isn't).

As for "Kakarot" vs "Kakarotto" specifically, Kakarot is better because it renders the pun on "Carrot" better, though arguably it should be spelled Cacarot to render that a little more clearly.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:53 am

Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:16 am
As for "Kakarot" vs "Kakarotto" specifically, Kakarot is better because it renders the pun on "Carrot" better, though arguably it should be spelled Cacarot to render that a little more clearly.
Carrot is キャロット, not カロット. カカロット isn't just the doubling of that first syllable.

And the point isn't to come up with some sort of hypothetical English fusion of "Vegeta" and "Kakarot", it's to work with what you have. The audio is clearly not saying "Vegerot", and if that's what you "have" to use because "Vegetto" makes no sense as a fusion of Vegeta and "Kakarot", you should probably have considered that when you were deciding on how to spell カカロット's name. Kakarrot may have made sense as a spelling back in the chapter when he's first named, but this is exactly why it's generally a good idea to familiarize yourself with what you're translating before you start.

Carlsen initially translated "jinzoningen" as "monster", which was sensible enough when the only character being referred to as such is this Frankenstein monster-looking creature. It's absolutely nonsensical as a translation if you're aware of the fact that there's going to be more jinzoningen later in the series that can't reasonably be referred to as monsters. It's pretty much guaranteed the translator was not aware of this and didn't take it into account when he decided on "monster" as a trnslation. And that's how we ended up with "Monster no 8" and "Cyborgs no 16 through 20" and a bunch of readers probably having no idea these were supposed to be related.

Carlsen also gave us "Kakarot and Vejita... my name must be Vejito.", a line that makes absolutely no sense at all.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:36 pm

Desassina wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:12 am
Since Kale and Caulifla are written like that, Kafla should be the appropriate spelling, with a Kay-fla pronunciation by convention. It's not by nature of reading, but we can accept Kefla, right?
Personally, I can't accept Kefla, it's Kafla, why has the official sources & dubs started naming Kafla "Kefla", it's actually disgusting.
Adamant wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 7:26 am
Yes, there's absolutely no reason why a translation should NOT use the Kakarotto/Kakarrotto spelling unless the translator is completely ignorant of Vegetto's existence.

"Vegito" is just a nonsense spelling made by ignorant people that thought Toriyama was just making up names by mashing random syllables together and doesn't need to be given any thought beyond that. It's the same people that gave you garbage like "Cui" and whatever else.
Would keeping "Kakarotto" still keep the pun intact? Or would it have to be spelt something like "Cacarot", similar to what Robo suggested?
Robo4900 wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:16 am
"Vegerot" is a better English rendering of the intent of the fusion name either way (Vegeta + Kakarot. Similar to how the original is Vegeta + Kakarotto). The ending syllable in the Japanese doesn't apply here, so either you have a name that doesn't actually sound like the two combined, as is the case for Vegetto, or you adapt it, and put up with some people complaining that it doesn't sound right (because they're not used to it) or that it's inaccurate (which it isn't).

As for "Kakarot" vs "Kakarotto" specifically, Kakarot is better because it renders the pun on "Carrot" better, though arguably it should be spelled Cacarot to render that a little more clearly.
Would "Cacarot" still be accurate though? Even if the letters are changed? And wouldn't Vegetto still be ideal? I'm hoping there's a way to make this work, would Kakarotto be nonsensical?
Adamant wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 8:53 am
Carrot is キャロット, not カロット. カカロット isn't just the doubling of that first syllable.

And the point isn't to come up with some sort of hypothetical English fusion of "Vegeta" and "Kakarot", it's to work with what you have. The audio is clearly not saying "Vegerot", and if that's what you "have" to use because "Vegetto" makes no sense as a fusion of Vegeta and "Kakarot", you should probably have considered that when you were deciding on how to spell カカロット's name. Kakarrot may have made sense as a spelling back in the chapter when he's first named, but this is exactly why it's generally a good idea to familiarize yourself with what you're translating before you start.

Carlsen initially translated "jinzoningen" as "monster", which was sensible enough when the only character being referred to as such is this Frankenstein monster-looking creature. It's absolutely nonsensical as a translation if you're aware of the fact that there's going to be more jinzoningen later in the series that can't reasonably be referred to as monsters. It's pretty much guaranteed the translator was not aware of this and didn't take it into account when he decided on "monster" as a trnslation. And that's how we ended up with "Monster no 8" and "Cyborgs no 16 through 20" and a bunch of readers probably having no idea these were supposed to be related.

Carlsen also gave us "Kakarot and Vejita... my name must be Vejito.", a line that makes absolutely no sense at all.
So does that mean having Kakarotto would still be better? What about what Robo suggested? "Cacarotto", or would that not fit with the original?

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by WittyUsername » Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:10 pm

I always struggle between whether I should say “Kakarot” or “Kakarotto” specifically because of the Vegetto situation.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by LoganForkHands73 » Wed Aug 12, 2020 5:07 pm

Considering the Kefla situation as well, I've kind of just come to terms that for whatever reason, Potara Fusion names will never make sense to us.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:13 pm

Aim wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:36 pm
Would keeping "Kakarotto" still keep the pun intact? Or would it have to be spelt something like "Cacarot", similar to what Robo suggested?


Well yeah, you can still pretty clearly see the "karrot" in the middle of Kakarrotto. It's fairly obvious what the pun is. As for "Cacarot" and the various other spellings that involve the letter c, I assume Robo mistakenly assumed carrot is written as "karotto" in Japanese. It's actually "kyarotto", so spelling the name with k is a nice way to get across that it's not JUST "carrot with the first syllable doubled".
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Robo4900 » Thu Aug 13, 2020 11:41 am

Adamant wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 6:13 pm
Aim wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:36 pm
Would keeping "Kakarotto" still keep the pun intact? Or would it have to be spelt something like "Cacarot", similar to what Robo suggested?
Well yeah, you can still pretty clearly see the "karrot" in the middle of Kakarrotto. It's fairly obvious what the pun is. As for "Cacarot" and the various other spellings that involve the letter c, I assume Robo mistakenly assumed carrot is written as "karotto" in Japanese. It's actually "kyarotto", so spelling the name with k is a nice way to get across that it's not JUST "carrot with the first syllable doubled".
My view on it is that retaining an equivalence to the original Japanese way of writing it is almost entirely unimportant. Having an English equivalent of the name the communicates the intended pun is the ultimate goal.

So, with that in mind, Kakarrot works well enough because the sound is close, and you can kinda see it in there, but something like Cacarrotto would work equally well.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Incarnate » Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:57 pm

Aim wrote:
Wed Aug 12, 2020 12:39 am
Because Vegerot just sounds really odd to me
That's because you were exposed to the anime first and them calling Vegerot "Vegetto/Vegito." It's the same reason why some fans still call Ultimate Gohan "Mystic," because they were so accustomed to calling it that despite it being wrong.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:11 am

Incarnate wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:57 pm
That's because you were exposed to the anime first and them calling Vegerot "Vegetto/Vegito." It's the same reason why some fans still call Ultimate Gohan "Mystic," because they were so accustomed to calling it that despite it being wrong.
Anything can be "defended" with "well if you were exposed to it first you'd be more familiar with it". Had you initially read some colossal rewrite that called Vegetto "Bob" you'd be accustomed to calling him Bob too.

And character names that actually appear in the series itself are kind of a different beast than transformation names that are only ever named in not-overly-accessible external material. Fans didn't call him "Mystic Gohan" because someone had actually renamed Ultimate Gohan that, they called him that because they wanted a name to refer to the transformation and made one up because they had no idea official material had already named him something.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Incarnate » Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:30 am

Adamant wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:11 am
Incarnate wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:57 pm
That's because you were exposed to the anime first and them calling Vegerot "Vegetto/Vegito." It's the same reason why some fans still call Ultimate Gohan "Mystic," because they were so accustomed to calling it that despite it being wrong.
Anything can be "defended" with "well if you were exposed to it first you'd be more familiar with it". Had you initially read some colossal rewrite that called Vegetto "Bob" you'd be accustomed to calling him Bob too.
Exactly..? There's nothing inherently wrong with the name Vegerot, but people are accustomed to the anime name Vegetto/Vegito so Vegerot sounds "odd" to them and seems "wrong." It's the same thing with Kuririn and "Krillin."

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:01 am

Incarnate wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:30 am
Adamant wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:11 am
Incarnate wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:57 pm
That's because you were exposed to the anime first and them calling Vegerot "Vegetto/Vegito." It's the same reason why some fans still call Ultimate Gohan "Mystic," because they were so accustomed to calling it that despite it being wrong.
Anything can be "defended" with "well if you were exposed to it first you'd be more familiar with it". Had you initially read some colossal rewrite that called Vegetto "Bob" you'd be accustomed to calling him Bob too.
Exactly..? There's nothing inherently wrong with the name Vegerot, but people are accustomed to the anime name Vegetto/Vegito so Vegerot sounds "odd" to them and seems "wrong." It's the same thing with Kuririn and "Krillin."
I really don't get what you're trying to say. Are you trying to argue for the name "Vegerot" specificlly, or are you just writing a generic "If you're accustomed to Vegerot from Viz that sounds fine to you and if you were accustomed to Baguetto from some shitty scanlation that'd sound fine to you". If it's the latter, then... that's really not what the thread is about. This is a discussion about how to ideally handle the spelling of these names in the roman alphabet, not about which random company's spellings you decided to let choose your spellings for you.
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Aim » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:01 am

Incarnate wrote:
Thu Aug 13, 2020 7:57 pm
That's because you were exposed to the anime first and them calling Vegerot "Vegetto/Vegito." It's the same reason why some fans still call Ultimate Gohan "Mystic," because they were so accustomed to calling it that despite it being wrong.
I grew up with "Mystic", Ultimate Gohan fits a lot better in my opinion. Vegerot is strange, who knows.
Adamant wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:01 am
This is a discussion about how to ideally handle the spelling of these names in the roman alphabet, not about which random company's spellings you decided to let choose your spellings for you.
Exactly!

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Desassina » Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:30 am

I think that Krillin is good as it is. Going by what the pun is supposed to mean, kuri being a chestnut, and lin coming from Shaolin (he is a monk), written as Kuririn in Japanese, you make the first two syllables one (ku-ri -> kri), because they sound like that when you read them fast enough, with the last syllable being the relevant one to distinguish.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Adamant » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:09 am

Desassina wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 7:30 am
I think that Krillin is good as it is. Going by what the pun is supposed to mean, kuri being a chestnut, and lin coming from Shaolin (he is a monk), written as Kuririn in Japanese, you make the first two syllables one (ku-ri -> kri), because they sound like that when you read them fast enough, with the last syllable being the relevant one to distinguish.
Adamant wrote:
Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:55 pm
Can someone please explain where this "Kuririn's name comes from shaolin" thing even comes from? Is there ANYTHING anywhere that even remotely hints at this, or is it just some desperate attempt at trying to connect that "rin" at the end of his name to some kind of word?

All Toriyama ever said about the name was that he just kinda halfassed it because he didn't think the character would stick around, which really suggests it's just "kurikuri" (meaning clean-shaven) with a cutesy "rin" thrown onto the end, not some crazy combination of unrelated words combined in a way more complex manner than any of his other puns. (He'd later associate the 栗 kanji with the character, and then ultimately gave him a daughter named Maron, after the French word for chestnut, marron, but that all came later)
----

You're also kinda missing the point of the thread. (And why single out "Krillin" anyway? What makes that better than Krilin, Clirin or Klilyn?)
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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Incarnate » Fri Aug 14, 2020 5:29 pm

Adamant wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 2:01 am
Incarnate wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 1:30 am
Adamant wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 12:11 am


Anything can be "defended" with "well if you were exposed to it first you'd be more familiar with it". Had you initially read some colossal rewrite that called Vegetto "Bob" you'd be accustomed to calling him Bob too.
Exactly..? There's nothing inherently wrong with the name Vegerot, but people are accustomed to the anime name Vegetto/Vegito so Vegerot sounds "odd" to them and seems "wrong." It's the same thing with Kuririn and "Krillin."
I really don't get what you're trying to say.
Not surprised there, English doesn't seem to be your first language. Regardless, Aim said Vegerot sounds weird to him and I replied with the reasoning for that, which is he grew up with the anime and is accustomed to the name of Vegetto/Vegito; so reading the manga for the first time and seeing such a different name from the anime seems "strange" to him. If you're asking for my stance on the naming convention, Vegerot is obviously the more accurate localization (Vegeta + Kakarrot) while Vegito is a more faithful localization (to the Japanese name Bejitto); just like how Kakarrot is a more accurate localization (keeping the name pun) while Kakarotto is just the Japanese name.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Zestanor » Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:12 pm

Kakarotto would have been a better choice than Kakarot. Why does the pun need to be conspicuous? In Japan, it sounds exotic or shiny because it’s an English pun. But if we render the pun directly (Cacarrot) is sounds/looks mundane. Somewhat concealing the pun seems to be less egregious than the horrific Cacarrot, or Bloomers, etc.

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Re: Kakarot vs Kakarotto - The Vegerot/Veg(ito) effect

Post by Robo4900 » Fri Aug 14, 2020 8:23 pm

Zestanor wrote:
Fri Aug 14, 2020 6:12 pm
Kakarotto would have been a better choice than Kakarot. Why does the pun need to be conspicuous? In Japan, it sounds exotic or shiny because it’s an English pun. But if we render the pun directly (Cacarrot) is sounds/looks mundane. Somewhat concealing the pun seems to be less egregious than the horrific Cacarrot, or Bloomers, etc.
Captain Ginyu's name is literally Japanese for "Captain Milk". Burdock is literally the name of a fruit. The Nyoi-Bo, Kinto'Un, and Son Goku are all literally the Japanese way of saying their equivalents from Journey To The West. Oolong and Pilaf are literally food.

Drawing the line at "nah Cacarrot is too close to the pun" is completely arbitrary.
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