Why are 18 & 17 stronger in the present than in Trunks' time

[cesarcoronel07]

I never really understood , why?

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Maybe because the Androids were using their powers to destroy for so long that they somehow started to grow weaker? Nah.

Those who don't agree with the present Androids being stronger often subscribe to the idea of the Future Androids holding back against Trunks. The Future Androids didn't take him seriously, so it's very possible.

[Saiga]

And there's also the fact that Android 17 apparently didn't use more than half his power when he used to fight future Gohan, as said in the Trunks special. So they could have done something similar for Trunks.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

That's what I think, too. Based on Future #17's dialogue when Trunks arrives to fight them again, he refers to him as being "one less toy to play with", so it seems like they didn't fight him seriously. This also gives Trunks enough of a reason to believe he could actually put up a fight against the both of them.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I posted my theory about why the Future Artificial Humans are different yesterday in the other thread:

The way I see it, Goku's death made Dr. Gero change his plans. He didn't use #19 (or he didn't even create him), he possibly destroyed #16 (or #17 & #18 destroyed him along with the lab), and he made modifications on #17 & #18 (he made them more evil, but suppressed their powers) when he decided to unleash them to attack instead of #19 & himself.

[freezamite]

There could be various options:
1. As stated by DBZGTKOSDH, Goku dying surely had an impact on Dr. Guero's approach on the android matter.
2. The fight with Mecha-Freezer & Cold on the future time-line affecting Dr. Guero's lab.

[Herms]

And there's also the fact that Android 17 apparently didn't use more than half his power when he used to fight future Gohan, as said in the Trunks special. So they could have done something similar for Trunks.

I've never seen that as very tenable. Gohan's totally confident he can beat both 17 and 18, at which point 17 reveals he wasn't even using half his power last time. So presumably Gohan had considerably surpassed half-power-17, for him to be so sure he could defeat the two of them. What's that going to put him at? Like 60%, 70% of 17's full power? Ish? And the implication is that 17 needed to uncork more of his power to kill Gohan.

Then a few years later when Trunks is grown up, Bulma thinks that he's stronger than Gohan was, though still not all that much stronger. And after the androids beat him, Trunks tells Bulma there was still a huge gap between him and the androids. So Trunks is presumably way stronger than 17 at half power, and the androids were way stronger than even that when they fought him. That doesn't seem to leave room for the two of them to have been holding back much power, if any.

I guess you could say that since 17 "wasn't even" using half his power, then technically he could have only been using a third, or a quarter, or even just one percent. But he's bragging, so if he really had been using a smaller fraction like that, then surely he would have just said that instead?

[freezamite]

And there's also the fact that Android 17 apparently didn't use more than half his power when he used to fight future Gohan, as said in the Trunks special. So they could have done something similar for Trunks.

I've never seen that as very tenable. Gohan's totally confident he can beat both 17 and 18, at which point 17 reveals he wasn't even using half his power last time. So presumably Gohan had considerably surpassed half-power-17, for him to be so sure he could defeat the two of them. What's that going to put him at? Like 60%, 70% of 17's full power? Ish? And the implication is that 17 needed to uncork more of his power to kill Gohan.

Then a few years later when Trunks is grown up, Bulma thinks that he's stronger than Gohan was, though still not all that much stronger. And after the androids beat him, Trunks tells Bulma there was still a huge gap between him and the androids. So Trunks is presumably way stronger than 17 at half power, and the androids were way stronger than even that when they fought him. That doesn't seem to leave room for the two of them to have been holding back much power, if any.

I guess you could say that since 17 "wasn't even" using half his power, then technically he could have only been using a third, or a quarter, or even just one percent. But he's bragging, so if he really had been using a smaller fraction like that, then surely he would have just said that instead?

And besides that, we have Trunk's confirmation that he could fight against the future androids. In fact, one timeline totally depends on Trunks killing those androids and Cell killing trunks, so those androids being weaker than their present counterparts is something totally confirmed.

[Saiga]

I've never seen that as very tenable. Gohan's totally confident he can beat both 17 and 18, at which point 17 reveals he wasn't even using half his power last time. So presumably Gohan had considerably surpassed half-power-17, for him to be so sure he could defeat the two of them. What's that going to put him at? Like 60%, 70% of 17's full power? Ish? And the implication is that 17 needed to uncork more of his power to kill Gohan.

Then a few years later when Trunks is grown up, Bulma thinks that he's stronger than Gohan was, though still not all that much stronger. And after the androids beat him, Trunks tells Bulma there was still a huge gap between him and the androids. So Trunks is presumably way stronger than 17 at half power, and the androids were way stronger than even that when they fought him. That doesn't seem to leave room for the two of them to have been holding back much power, if any.

I guess you could say that since 17 "wasn't even" using half his power, then technically he could have only been using a third, or a quarter, or even just one percent. But he's bragging, so if he really had been using a smaller fraction like that, then surely he would have just said that instead?

That's a good point. I was basing the idea that they'd still be using less than half their power against Trunks off the statement he made that he could fight them fairly well, but the present Androids were just far out of his league. But looking through the strength checker, it seems that one quote (he can fight the future Androids fairly well) is at odds with everything else he says about them. Unless getting his teeth kicked in is a positive to him.

[mAcChaos]

Trunks is an inexperienced fighter. I doubt he was able to effectively gauge their strength.

[freezamite]

That's a good point. I was basing the idea that they'd still be using less than half their power against Trunks off the statement he made that he could fight them fairly well, but the present Androids were just far out of his league. But looking through the strength checker, it seems that one quote (he can fight the future Androids fairly well) is at odds with everything else he says about them. Unless getting his teeth kicked in is a positive to him.

Trunks is pretty "coherent" with all he says about the androids (coherent in the sense of plotholes on the series, not on what he says), the problem is that you're interpreting his words as if he was a narrator, but in fact he was a character.

Trunks, as a character, has his own motivations which are to become stronger fighting the androids among the other z-warriors and maybe find a weak point of them.
Since this was his objective, and after seeing how strong Goku was (as strong as him), why would Trunks tell Goku something like "wow you're really strong and you really don't need to train a lot to overcome the androids, sine I'm already able to fight against them!"?
He wanted the androids to disappear, so he told Goku a lie in order to increase the chances of that happening. He told Goku that as strong as he was he couldn't stand a chance against those androids and he did that because he wanted Goku & the others to be as motivated as possible to fight them.

If the present androids had been as "weak" as the future ones, Trunk's strategy would have been a complete success. Of course, had the things gone as Trunks predicted Goku would have been healed of his disease and stronger than when he and Trunks spoke for the first time, and to help him there had also been a totally prepared Piccolo that at that point had enough power to fight at least against one future android and kill it, a motivated SSJ Vegeta that was much stronger than Trunks, and of course, Trunks himself as a reinforcement.

Things turned to be different on the present timeline, and it's only when there's no point on lying about the android's strength that Trunks explains that in fact the future androids weren't as strong as he previously anticipated, which is also supported by the fact that in one of the future timelines he kills those androids before coming back to the present timeline.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Trunks didn't lie. He was perfectly honest about the situation. The same Trunks later says he was "powerless" as a Super Saiyan against his Androids, and this was well after the training. Trunks could somewhat put up a fight, but that didn't stop him from nearly getting annihilated in the battle. As for the alternate timeline, we don't know how he defeated the Androids. It's possible he was able to obtain the device to stop them.

[freezamite]

Trunks didn't lie. He was perfectly honest about the situation. The same Trunks later says he was "powerless" as a Super Saiyan against his Androids, and this was well after the training. Trunks could somewhat put up a fight, but that didn't stop him from nearly getting annihilated in the battle. As for the alternate timeline, we don't know how he defeated the Androids. It's possible he was able to obtain the device to stop them.

There was no device on the future. In fact, even the one in the present had to be remade by Bulma. And why do you say he wasn't lying? It's obvious that the picture he painted about the future saying he could barely escape against them is not the one you would expect from someone that was at those android's level.
Trunks told a good lie, which is one consisting in 90% of truth. He explained only what he thought it would be wise to explain at that moment, and that's the same he does when he hides his identity from Vegeta and Bulma.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Trunks was returning to tell everyone he defeated the Androids, so this likely wasn't his first time traveling to the past. If he had prior experience in the past, it's very possible they came across blueprints for the Androids--whether by Gero's lab or by some other means. Or he gained enough power to take the Androids, but unable to defeat Cell. Also, Future Cell even says Trunks's power is nothing to the Androids when going off of the latest spy robot data--which makes sense when going by their previous battle.

Again, there's no lie. The picture he painted was that he was up against a duo that had the advantage in terms of power and the fact that it was two of them. Even once his identity is revealed, he tells everyone that he was hoping to either see Goku exploit a weakness or bring Goku back to the future to destroy the Androids himself. Trunks doesn't fit into the equation because he's not strong enough to destroy the Androids.

[freezamite]

Trunks was returning to tell everyone he defeated the Androids, so this likely wasn't his first time traveling to the past. If he had prior experience in the past, it's very possible they came across blueprints for the Androids--whether by Gero's lab or by some other means. Or he gained enough power to take the Androids, but unable to defeat Cell. Also, Future Cell even says Trunks's power is nothing to the Androids when going off of the latest spy robot data--which makes sense when going by their previous battle.

Of course this wasn't his first time travelling to the past, the first time was when he travelled and defeated Mecha Freezer and Cold.
Regarding their previous battle, nothing is seen on the manga regarding how it went, but if the androids had infinite energy it's only normal than the final result would seem, at first glance, as if the difference was much bigger. I mean, look at SSJ Vegeta vs Android 18. They had the same strength, but the infinite energy advantage was enough for the Android to completely defeat Vegeta like he was nothing.

Again, there's no lie. The picture he painted was that he was up against a duo that had the advantage in terms of power and the fact that it was two of them. Even once his identity is revealed, he tells everyone that he was hoping to either see Goku exploit a weakness or bring Goku back to the future to destroy the Androids himself. Trunks doesn't fit into the equation because he's not strong enough to destroy the Androids.

A I say, it's Trunks himself who confirms that the future androids are weaker enough for him being able to fight against them, and that Trunks didn't do any space travel training nor travelled multiple times to investigate the androids. So if that Trunks was strong enough to fight them, it's possible that in an alternative timeline he attacked the androids and defeated them.
After all, information about those androids was constantly given by the media, so it's not unthinkable that Trunks could plan a sneak attack against them at a certain point. I mean, I'm sure those androids weren't 100% of the time going together, so if Trunks was able to fight them properly even if for just a few minutes, if he attacked them while they were separated for whatever reason (maybe he killed 17 while 18 was taking a bath or even better, he attacked 18 while she was taking the bath ) but the possibility is clearly there.

Regarding Trunks expecting to find a weakness of bringing Goku back to the future, Trunks it's not like Goku, he won't risk the earth because of a good fight. Even if he could defeat the androids risking his life, it's obvious that if there was a safer method of killing them Trunks would take advantage of it.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Of course this wasn't his first time travelling to the past, the first time was when he travelled and defeated Mecha Freezer and Cold.
Regarding their previous battle, nothing is seen on the manga regarding how it went, but if the androids had infinite energy it's only normal than the final result would seem, at first glance, as if the difference was much bigger. I mean, look at SSJ Vegeta vs Android 18. They had the same strength, but the infinite energy advantage was enough for the Android to completely defeat Vegeta like he was nothing.

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P17.3
Context: Trunks is in hospital after losing to the androids.
Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…”

Trunks is aware that they have infinite energy, yet still understands that the Androids were far more powerful than him.

As for Vegeta, no, he and #18 are not equal. None of his attacks did any damage to her and she broke his arm with a single kick. The most he could do is destroy her jacket after knocking her down. Piccolo is on-par with #17 and is able to knock him around in their battle. In that battle, limitless energy was what gave #17 the advantage. In the #18 battle, she had the limitless energy and power advantage over Vegeta.

A I say, it's Trunks himself who confirms that the future androids are weaker enough for him being able to fight against them, and that Trunks didn't do any space travel training nor travelled multiple times to investigate the androids. So if that Trunks was strong enough to fight them, it's possible that in an alternative timeline he attacked the androids and defeated.

It's possible. I just think it's very unlikely without a huge power-up. The Trunks that was defeated by Cell is hardly any different than the Future Trunks we know. The only difference is one defeated the Androids because of the power he acquired in the rosat, while the other wouldn't have been much different than he was after fighting Freeza. Cell mentions that the only thing he fears is the remote control, but luckily it no longer exists. Now Cell wouldn't have known how Trunks was able to beat the Androids himself, but Trunks utilizing the remote control is very possible in Cell's timeline.

Regarding Trunks expecting to find a weakness of bringing Goku back to the future, Trunks it's not like Goku, he won't risk the earth because of a good fight. Even if he could defeat the androids risking his life, it's obvious that if there was a safer method of killing them Trunks would take advantage of it.

Well, yeah. My main point is Trunks can't defeat the Androids because they're just more powerful than him. They can be weaker than the present Androids and still be comfortably above Trunks.

[freezamite]

Of course this wasn't his first time travelling to the past, the first time was when he travelled and defeated Mecha Freezer and Cold.
Regarding their previous battle, nothing is seen on the manga regarding how it went, but if the androids had infinite energy it's only normal than the final result would seem, at first glance, as if the difference was much bigger. I mean, look at SSJ Vegeta vs Android 18. They had the same strength, but the infinite energy advantage was enough for the Android to completely defeat Vegeta like he was nothing.

Chapter: Trunks: the Story, P17.3
Context: Trunks is in hospital after losing to the androids.
Trunks: “You were right… The gap between me and the androids was still huge…I think I’m lucky to have returned alive…”

Trunks is aware that they have infinite energy, yet still understands that the Androids were far more powerful than him.

But what's the meaning of "huge"? The gap between 18 and Vegeta can be considered to be "huge" but that doesn't mean it's big due to pure strength but to other factors.
When Trunks speaks about him being able to fight the future androids, he concretely speaks about their strength.

So he was strong enough to fight them for a few minutes but afterwards he was clearly defeated by them.

As for Vegeta, no, he and #18 are not equal. None of his attacks did any damage to her and she broke his arm with a single kick. The most he could do is destroy her jacket after knocking her down. Piccolo is on-par with #17 and is able to knock him around in their battle. In that battle, limitless energy was what gave #17 the advantage. In the #18 battle, she had the limitless energy and power advantage over Vegeta.

Re-read the manga and you will see how this is not true. Vegeta's battle against 18 was decided entirely by the unlimited energy of the android, as Piccolo clearly explains.
In my opinion, Piccolo had a slight advantage over #17 in terms of strength that allowed him to put a better fight despite not being enough to kill the android before exhausting.

It's possible. I just think it's very unlikely without a huge power-up. The Trunks that was defeated by Cell is hardly any different than the Future Trunks we know. The only difference is one defeated the Androids because of the power he acquired in the rosat, while the other wouldn't have been much different than he was after fighting Freeza. Cell mentions that the only thing he fears is the remote control, but luckily it no longer exists. Now Cell wouldn't have known how Trunks was able to beat the Androids himself, but Trunks utilizing the remote control is very possible in Cell's timeline.

But he clearly says that he was able to fight them in terms of strength. Furthermore, why would the future androids not destroy the remote control like they did on the present, if that was their biggest weakness?

Well, yeah. My main point is Trunks can't defeat the Androids because they're just more powerful than him. They can be weaker than the present Androids and still be comfortably above Trunks.

Well, I think that the difference in terms of strength wasn't big but that unlimited energy plus the androids being two made a the difference to be huge in their favour.
In that scenario, Trunk's actions and sentences would make plenty of sense, and him killing the androids with a sneak attack could also be a possibility.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

But what's the meaning of "huge"? The gap between 18 and Vegeta can be considered to be "huge" but that doesn't mean it's big due to pure strength but to other factors. When Trunks speaks about him being able to fight the future androids, he concretely speaks about their strength.

This also makes note of their strength:

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

The Androids were likely holding-back against him. Trunks barely escaped the battle and #17 later calls him a fool for challenging them again. He even gives #18 the opportunity to finish him by herself. If Trunks was really strong enough to fight them both, surely he wouldn't be considered a "toy?"

So he was strong enough to fight them for a few minutes but afterwards he was clearly defeated by them.

And Trunks "fighting them fairly well" can mean anything. He could've pinned them down with Chi-blasts, or landed a punch or two--or even tank some of their attacks without giving up. Still ultimately useless, though.

Re-read the manga and you will see how this is not true. Vegeta's battle against 18 was decided entirely by the unlimited energy of the android, as Piccolo clearly explains.
In my opinion, Piccolo had a slight advantage over #17 in terms of strength that allowed him to put a better fight despite not being enough to kill the android before exhausting.

I've read the battle enough to have an understanding. None of Vegeta's attacks affected her one bit. Vegeta even comments on this and expressed how frustrating it is to see #18 pretend as if his attacks aren't hurting her. If it was solely based on her unlimited energy, why couldn't Vegeta damage her one bit? Much less disable him with a single kick? Piccolo just says Vegeta was slowly losing stamina while the Android didn't. That's nothing definitive--especially when you see how easily she takes him down afterwards.

But he clearly says that he was able to fight them in terms of strength. Furthermore, why would the future androids not destroy the remote control like they did on the present, if that was their biggest weakness?

But again, what does that mean? Putting up a good fight could mean anything. Trunks wouldn't have gotten the remote control from Cell's timeline; he would've gotten it from the other timeline he traveled to.

Well, I think that the difference in terms of strength wasn't big but that unlimited energy plus the androids being two made a the difference to be huge in their favour.
In that scenario, Trunk's actions and sentences would make plenty of sense, and him killing the androids with a sneak attack could also be a possibility.

Trunks can put up a good fight against the Androids if they hold-back. The Androids let Gohan get away so many times that it makes sense for them to give Trunks a similar opportunity.

[freezamite]

This also makes note of their strength:

Chapter: 348 (DBZ 154), P6.1
Context: after Piccolo says Super Saiyan Vegeta might beat No.17 and No.18
Trunks: “I-I was able to become a Super Saiyan too…B-but, I was absolutely no match for them…They’re stupendously strong…”

But as I say, at that point Trunks still had a greater interest than simply tell the others what he knew. He was trying to convince the others to pull back until Goku was healed and increase their chances at winning, so it's only logical that if he lied before he would do it again.
It's only after the fight against the androids has taken place that he had no reason to lie about that subject.

The Androids were likely holding-back against him. Trunks barely escaped the battle and #17 later calls him a fool for challenging them again. He even gives #18 the opportunity to finish him by herself. If Trunks was really strong enough to fight them both, surely he wouldn't be considered a "toy?"

On the contrary. The fact that he was considered a toy meant that he was able to put up a decent fight, otherwise Trunks would've been killed like the rest of the humans.
I don't think Trunks has to be able to fight them BOTH equally, I mean, maybe Trunks was only able to fight against one of them during a short period of time.

And Trunks "fighting them fairly well" can mean anything. He could've pinned them down with Chi-blasts, or landed a punch or two--or even tank some of their attacks without giving up. Still ultimately useless, though.

Yes, I don't deny that. He was still below both androids, and this is why I say that the most probable scenario is that he "cheated" in order to kill them. But what I mean is that even if he "cheated" the difference in terms of pure strength couldn't be "huge" in the sense of the androids being above that 10% barrier that translates into complete dominance.

I've read the battle enough to have an understanding. None of Vegeta's attacks affected her one bit. Vegeta even comments on this and expressed how frustrating it is to see #18 pretend as if his attacks aren't hurting her. If it was solely based on her unlimited energy, why couldn't Vegeta damage her one bit? Much less disable him with a single kick? Piccolo just says Vegeta was slowly losing stamina while the Android didn't. That's nothing definitive--especially when you see how easily she takes him down afterwards.

She didn't damage Vegeta either at that point, so I don't see why Vegeta not seriously damaging #18 is a proof of him being under the android, when we see that the android wasn't able to injure Vegeta either.
The fight was portrayed as an equal match, and I think that if we don't see Vegeta connecting bigger hits on #18 is purely because that match was there to hype the androids, so instead of having Vegeta and #18 trading and connecting huge punches between them Toriyama decided to go for a fight where none of the characters could connect a solid punch until one of them became tired.

But again, what does that mean? Putting up a good fight could mean anything. Trunks wouldn't have gotten the remote control from Cell's timeline; he would've gotten it from the other timeline he travelled to.

But that would be out of character. Trunks doesn't know about that remote control until he casually discovers it's existence after bringing Bulma the maps he found on Guero's lab, and in fact, he is pretty amazed by the finding.
If he had known about this remote control before instead of appearing in front of Goku & the others and defeating Mecha Freezer he would've gone directly towards Guero's lab, destroyed it, and take the control remote since the beginning and even without explaining anything to Goku & the others.

I mean, he travels to the past to find a weak point for the second time, so he obviously didn't know about that before making that travel, and on the future timeline he was eliminated before he could do that.

Trunks can put up a good fight against the Androids if they hold-back. The Androids let Gohan get away so many times that it makes sense for them to give Trunks a similar opportunity.

But then, how did he kill them without the remote control?

[Godo]

Trunks is an inexperienced fighter. I doubt he was able to effectively gauge their strength.

He fought them both several times, so that would make him experienced enough by fighting them and thus gauging their strength.