Why do lots of people like Cell and Broly?

[Kid Trunks]

Your saying that Vegeta was always ahead of Goku, and I don't believe that. Vegeta had the crap beaten out of him for most of the fight. And after Goku made his "I can't do this anymore" speech and used the Kaioken anyway. But this is going off of what I was originally saying. All I'm saying is that if one guy is allowed to multiply his power, then why can't the other.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Well, that's what I get for going off of memory that sometimes has trouble differentiating between dub and sub from when I filled in the blanks of my subtitled VHS collection with what aired on TV.

[Wojak]

Well, what matters is that Vegeta saw his fight against Goku as a defeat, right?

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Well, what matters is that Vegeta saw his fight against Goku as a defeat, right?

How is that what matters? I don't see how that affects whether or not Vegeta has a code of honor, of any kind...

[Horgus]

How is that what matters? I don't see how that affects whether or not Vegeta has a code of honor, of any kind...

I don't think Vegeta has 'honor' in the way that we would define it, but he most certainly has a 'bushido' type credo that defines his thinking.

His attitude towards the senzu later in the series confirms this in a way.

[Saiyan-Professor]

I'm sorry, but what about Raditz? When he is wailing on Goku after being told he could leave, doesn't he go on about a true Saiyan warrior doing whatever it takes? Vegeta behaves the exact same way until he becomes a super saiyan. After that, suddenly we get the rules. "A true warrior doesnt need this" or "a true warrior doesn't do that." A stark parallel from the old "whatever it takes" philosophy, seemingly adopted because he felt he had achieved his birthright and at that point felt his shit no longer stunk.

Going back on one’s word is not strange thing for a Saiyan to do, Vegeta did it all through Freeza Saga. Super Ghost Kamikaze hit the nail on the head it is not about who is more honorable but that Broli did not hold to any at all. That was what the original statement pertained to initially.

We argue that he isn't fast because, one round of dodging aside, he didn't do anything fast. The Vegeta line? Is Vegeta an expert on LSSJ as well? That would be amusing considering it isn't even canon. Wouldn't that logic work towards USSJ2, by your logic?

The principle about power still applies regardless of whether you believe that the facts apply or not. The whole canon notion concerning Dragonball is a fallacy and it does not hold any weight because there is no way to develop one so any so-called canon is subjective at best. Regarding Ultra Super Saiyan 2 Toriyama contradicted what Vegeta said previously or you can look at it as an exception to the rule just as Super Saiyan 4 Kakarrot said that Si Xing Long was faster than he was but he held the monopoly on power out of the two.

[Onikage725]

Going back on one’s word is not strange thing for a Saiyan to do, Vegeta did it all through Freeza Saga. Super Ghost Kamikaze hit the nail on the head it is not about who is more honorable but that Broli did not hold to any at all. That was what the original statement pertained to initially.

My point is that Broli doesn't behave atypically from your average Saiyan. The three main examples we have in the manga of Raditz, Nappa, and Vegeta are portrayed as conscience-free genocidal maniacs who did whatever was necessary to score a win. Raditz and Vegeta have been cited. For Nappa, one quick example is his attack on two side-lined warriors, just for shits and grins, after being ordered to stand down from the battlefield.

If we factor the anime, look at Arlia? What is so much more honorable about Vegeta's actions there over Broli's destruction of Planet Shamo out of spite? Saiyans killed weaker beings for kicks. If Broli differs, it's because he lacks structure. He grew up with no interest in the planet trade. His failings aren't in morality. He is actually a perfect example of a "True Saiyan Warrior."

The principle about power still applies regardless of whether you believe that the facts apply or not. The whole canon notion concerning Dragonball is a fallacy and it does not hold any weight because there is no way to develop one so any so-called canon is subjective at best. Regarding Ultra Super Saiyan 2 Toriyama contradicted what Vegeta said previously or you can look at it as an exception to the rule just as Super Saiyan 4 Kakarrot said that Si Xing Long was faster than he was but he held the monopoly on power out of the two.

Yes, this is subjective. That's why I don't get why you treat every source or contribution as being one solid unit. I only say that because we've had a similar discussion in the past. Toriyama didn't write or animate movie 8. So his statements, through Vegeta, weren't pertaining to Broli in any way. That doesn't necessarily mean that we can't apply them. What it does mean is that there is some level of interpretation at work. Toriyama contradicts them within his own story. Just like he had two sagas where you could very strictly calculate everyone's level, only to tell us (through Vegeta no less) that you can't make those calculations. He made and followed rules out of convenience at best. Look at Freeza. He is a prime example of your case- he muscled up and got faster. But by the same token, he contradicts USSJ2, as his muscle mass compared to his normal form was ridiculous. What about Fat Buu? His power was immense, and he had a good top speed, but he wasn't that quick. He had trouble evading blows, and when he faced an opponent of equal power he took far more hits than he dished out.

So we can't take that sentence you quoted and just slap it onto Broli without consideration. I personally think Broli is similar to Fat Buu in speed. He has a good rushing speed. He outran Vegeta when Vegeta tried to retreat (the shoulder ram I mentioned earlier). But the only time he displayed any quickness was when he dodged that one flurry. And anyone who's played a tabletop RPG can tell you that your evasion chances go up if your only action is defense :p

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Captain Awesome]

I think a lot of this "Saiyan code" stuff stems from the way the FUNimation dub depicted (or completely fucked up) the Saiya-jin.

Instead of bloodthirsty space barbarians, they are a mislead proud warrior-people who were corrupted by Freeza.

it's not like Genocide was their fucking hobby or anything.

[Wojak]

Well, what matters is that Vegeta saw his fight against Goku as a defeat, right?

How is that what matters? I don't see how that affects whether or not Vegeta has a code of honor, of any kind...

On the previous page, the discussion lead to that they thought that Goku won their first fight, describing all the powerups Goku had and also how he "cheated", so for the time, it was pretty much of the subject as the thread had lead to another subject.
So...yeah.

[Rocketman]

And I don't remember any instances where he was ever around any Senzu in the Buu arc, much less had some sort of issue with them.

Majin Vegeta chows down on one after he knocks out Goku.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Herms]

I don't think Vegeta has 'honor' in the way that we would define it, but he most certainly has a 'bushido' type credo that defines his thinking.

I'm going to ask this again; when and where is this supposed “code” of Vegeta’s demonstrated? Anywhere? Ever? Are there any tangible examples of this that you or anyone else can think of?

No.17 actually refers to Vegeta as following a bushido code when he promises to step into the fight should Trunks or the others interfere with Vegeta and No.18's battle. In this case it seems he means Vegeta's desire to fight with his enemy one on one, which does seem to be a constant Saiyan trait (see Goku and Vegeta's decision to fight Buu without using the Potara again). Though I think Bulma describes this better when she calls it "battle mania".

[Rocketman]

Again, Vegeta says all of JACK SHIT in the Japanese version of the Cell Game episodes regarding how Son Goku was handling his fight with Cell. In fact he doesn't say hardly ANYTHING at all until near the end when Goku quits the fight, which leads me to think now (as I haven't seen this particular fight dubbed) that the dub basically added in entire inner monolgogues for Vegeta that never existed in the original, that has Vegeta going on and on about a bunch of random horseshit they completely made up for him on the fly. It would by no means be the first, last, or only time they pulled something like that. Not by a long shot.

There is one part, just before Goku gives up.

Page 86, vol 18.
----
Trunks: It's [Cell's] right! We should give Goku a senzu and all turn on Cell - It's weakened enough by now!
Krillin: ...
Trunks: Krillin! Hurry, get him the senzu!
Vegeta: Shut up, Trunks! I guess you don't have a Saiyan's pride. I'm sure he'd rather choose death than win that way. He's no longer fighting just to save the Earth. Remember that.

[Kunzait_83]

b

[Onikage725]

Can I just point out that both of those instances are *after* Vegeta becomes a Super Saiyan? I believe the issue at hand is if typical Saiyan behavior, as espoused by the species as a whole and demonstrated by the few we see in the series is different from Vegeta's code of conduct after his ascendancy into the "Super" Saiyan, and does Broli behave atypically compared to the average Saiyan.

Honestly, I think that Broli and early Vegeta are typical, and faux-bushido Vegeta from the Cell Saga is the atypical case. The "true Saiyans fight alone" attitude didn't stop Vegeta from partnering with his enemies to challenge the Ginyu, or Freeza. In fact, when he goaded Freeza into transforming, he seemed convinced that 3 on 1 odds would keep the fight in his favor. When he found out he was wrong, he tried to run away.

Saiyans were savage. Brutal. The delighted in killing for sport as much as profit. Doesn't Nappa refer to the humans he slaughters as lame dogs, or something to that effect? They also will do whatever it takes to succeed, whether that means teaming up with enemies out of convenience, attacking in greater numbers, attacking from behind, or simply waiting for a full moon. These are all demonstrated in the series. If we want to call that a loose code of ethics, fine. But Broli doesn't really deviate from that, aside from fighting alone. But until Goku juiced up from the others, there wasn't anyone near his level anyway.

Or to simplify- every cruel thing anyone can cite Broli doing, we can most likely show Nappa or Vegeta doing as well.

EDIT: Just read Kunzait's post. To compare assholes with honor codes, let's look at YYH's Hiei and DB's own Piccolo. Both of them are murderers with serious chips on their shoulders. However, they both show that when they commit to an alliance, even if they hate their teammates, it is a full commitment. Their word is bond. Hiei even says this, when questioned about his future intentions after using the Black Dragon Wave. He specifically tells them not to worry, as if betrayal is just something completely beneath him.

Compare to Vegeta, who agrees to side with Goku against Ginyu, only to book off as soon as the fight begins to try and swipe the dragon balls. He also makes it very clear (via inner monologue) when he puts Goku in the healing tank that he is only using his current allies as fodder against Freeza, and that he will very much enjoy killing them all afterwards.

[VegettoEX]

I just wanna say how fascinating this discussion turned. It's all stuff I always wanted to talk through, and it's great that the thread turned that way. I briefly mentioned a bit of it during the manga review for the next podcast episode, too .

[Rocketman]

In fact, when he goaded Freeza into transforming, he seemed convinced that 3 on 1 odds would keep the fight in his favor. When he found out he was wrong, he tried to run away.

Not in the manga, he didn't. He stayed there and tried attacking Freeza from behind while he was distracted with Gohan.

Compare to Vegeta, who agrees to side with Goku against Ginyu, only to book off as soon as the fight begins to try and swipe the dragon balls. He also makes it very clear (via inner monologue) when he puts Goku in the healing tank that he is only using his current allies as fodder against Freeza, and that he will very much enjoy killing them all afterwards.

Piccolo was the same way, remember? It was supposed to be only an alliance to kill Raditz and afterwards he and Goku would go back to being mortal enemies.

[Super Ghost Kamikaze]

Piccolo was the same way, remember? It was supposed to be only an alliance to kill Raditz and afterwards he and Goku would go back to being mortal enemies.

The turnaround on that was INSANELY fast.

"MAKANKOSAPPO!

OKRADITZISDEADWEAREENEMIESNOWHAHAHAHA OOOOOOOOOOOOOH Goku's dead."

[Mike D]

Piccolo was the same way, remember? It was supposed to be only an alliance to kill Raditz and afterwards he and Goku would go back to being mortal enemies.

I'd have to disagree because (if my memory is correct) Piccolo made it clear to Goku that it was a temporary alliance where as Vegeta just smooth ditched Goku a second before the battle began.