The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Gogetason]

Repeat of an ancient post I made.

Eragon, with all of the Eldunari, runs the Dragon Ball gauntlet. How far does he get?

End of series Sesshomaru gets one free shot in on Buu. Can he take him out with his Bakusaiga?

The Black Knight from Fire Emblem Path of Radiance (not Radiant Dawn) vs the 21st Budokai contestants.

Alex from Golden Sun vs the 21st Budokai, and then the 22nd.

3 games in my top 10 fav games right there. Although I haven't played them in a long time.

I assume you mean fighting the black knight with his sword and armor which have been blessed. Still he doesnt have much feats that I can remember apart from easily beating a lion beast who doesnt really have any relatively good feats itself and tanking any blade attack that isnt blessed. This is only difficult because of the armor, but I might actually go with Roshi/jackie chun here with the same kamehame attack that destroyed the moon. Either that or Jackie loses because of stamina and the fact he probably cant damage the BK.

Alex has no relatively good speed or durability feat. So he might loose to jackie chun, if not then goku or tien from the 22nd Budokai would speed biltz him before he can get off any attack.

[daniel1]

Well, the official website (using elements from both manga and anime) still indicates South Kaioshin’s absorption increased Buu’s power. This isn’t contradicted in the manga; in fact, Shin states South Kaioshin was “the burliest and strongest,” which aligns with the idea of Kid Buu losing power when South Kaioshin was removed. Debates on canon sources need to consider all available official information, not just controversial anime filler scenes (when Kid Buu was implied to be in a league of his own).

The website is not referencing the manga. It is referencing the anime, and the anime is clear on where Kid Buu ranks.

Dabra’s comment simply reflects that Shin and Kibito lack sufficient power to revive Buu. It doesn’t imply that any Kai absorbed would lower Buu’s strength.

I don't think there's anything to support their statements as anything but literal.

He sure quieted down after you brought up an official source.

I am writing my Master's thesis on top of working part-time, and thus don't have much free time.

You are not actually making a point, you are just reading a random compilation.

They illustrate a trend and are not conclusive by themselves. I state this in the section you criticized without reading.

Teleportation and Babidi’s magic are also described as troublesome, despite they obviously not representing strength level.

Babidi's magic is very powerful. We see this from his ability to subdue enemies millions of times stronger than him.

3/As I said I dont think unpredictable is a fitting description for kid buu. Its more a fitting description for fat buu, who we dont know what he'll do. Will he destroy that town or try to mate with the female, or build a house. See what I mean? we know for sure kid buu will destroy things/the town just because hes pure evil or evil itself so by the definition alone hes not unpredictable. Again fat buu and super buu are more in the scope of the definition of unpredictable.

This is a very strong point. I don't think I've seen anyone make this before.

Its never stated whether the dia kaioshin was the only one that lowered his power, your twisting the quote. Its heavily implied that only the dia kaioshin made him less evil. We still dont know if both south kai and the dia kiaoshin lowered his power. Theres no statement which says south kai did or if both did.

It is almost certainly true that the South Kaioshin also weakened Majin Buu given what we know about the Dai Kaioshin and Dabura's comments on resurrecting Majin Buu. But the page itself, like you wrote, is not clear on this. I had that page professionally translated while researching my article:

"Wh ... .which means…"

"In my time, there were five Kaiōshins...Until the Sorcerer Bibidi’s creation, Majin Bū, was defeated, I was the youngest and the weakest of the bunch, saved without sustaining any serious injuries...However, the remaining four Kaiōshins suffered at the hands of Bū..."

"First, the North and West Kaiōshins were killed…then, the strongest and most heroic Southern Kaiōshin was absorbed by Bū.”

“....and then he became that massive Majin Bū that we saw earlier?”

“Precisely.”

“...the next one absorbed was the kind-hearted, heavy set Daikaiōshin. Majin Bū was a failed creation that even Bibidi could not overcome, but by absorbing the Daikaiōshin, he was somehow able to gain control…”

“...which means that it’s finally been completed ... .so that little Majin Bū [Kid Bū] is the worst of the bunch.”

“Exactly…the power reduction that occurred during the absorption has worn off, leading to this monstrosity…a being of pure evil with no concept of restraint or self control…”

And if absorptions were a negative thing for Buu, then he wouldn't be absorbing people left and right on Earth, wouldn't you say? after twice failing to improve his power by doing that, why would he try to do the same, and not just to survive but to fight somebody else? That would be the one thing Buu knows he shouldn't do.

Absorptions of Kaioshin are established as a negative for Kid Buu, and not absorptions of non-Kaioshin. As for why he would do that, no one knows.

if Fat Buu wasn't removed, and Goku and Vegeta had to deal with Super Buu on Earth, and keep in mind they agreed he was still out of their league and had no idea how to deal with him... how do you think this what-if would've played out?

It probably would have been the same, except Goku and Vegeta would have had more time to think of a plan. Buuhan was about to destroy the Earth before he transformed into Kid Buu. Once he was Kid Buu again, the first thing he did was destroy the Earth. So Super Buu would almost certainly have destroyed the Earth as well with Kibitoshin bringing them to his planet before it occurred. Then they would have destroyed the potara again, but the difference from here is that Super Buu would not have been able to reach them, so they would have worked on a plan to defeat him.

When it comes to “common sense,” I think it’s less about overthinking and more about trying to understand why Elder Kaioshin calls Kid Buu the “most troublesome” one; to me, he is talking about this Buu’s volatile nature, even if other forms are more dangerous or have similar levels of evil.

There's too much emphasis on the "most troublesome" translation being the only possible translation into English for this. It could also be understood as "most difficult," "worst of the bunch," and any other synonym you can find.

So super buu most likely doesnt know how strong he was as kid buu.

Another way we can look at this is the different forms of Majin Buu are Moon Knight-esque alters. By this I mean, they are essentially different people who happen to inhabit the same body (most of the time in Majin Buu's case).

ssj3 goku because they were fighting evenly

Keep in mind that by Goku's own admission, this is not true.

[Yuji]

I don't think we can ignore anymore how every piece of Dragon Ball post-manga, be it Toei's adaptation in the 90s itself or recent shows, pushes the Goku > Gohan narrative in the Boo arc, and therefore the Kid Boo > Super Boo one.

But I speak for myself that the original intent is more than clear that the opposite is the case and until a concrete statement along the lines of "Goku was stronger than Gohan specifically in pure battle power in the Boo arc" is made, then the original scale as laid out in the manga is what I will be following. I'm not opposed to modern stuff recontextualizing old strength debates but this one creates more problems than it's worth.

[Hugo Boss]

Well, the official website (using elements from both manga and anime) still indicates South Kaioshin’s absorption increased Buu’s power. This isn’t contradicted in the manga; in fact, Shin states South Kaioshin was “the burliest and strongest,” which aligns with the idea of Kid Buu losing power when South Kaioshin was removed. Debates on canon sources need to consider all available official information, not just controversial anime filler scenes (when Kid Buu was implied to be in a league of his own).

The website is not referencing the manga. It is referencing the anime, and the anime is clear on where Kid Buu ranks.

That’s not quite right. The articles reference multiple different sources (manga, anime, movies, OVAs, etc). Only the images in South Kaioshins’ case are shown to be taken from the anime, but this is because he doesn’t appear in more than one panel in the manga.

Dabra’s comment simply reflects that Shin and Kibito lack sufficient power to revive Buu. It doesn’t imply that any Kai absorbed would lower Buu’s strength.

I don't think there's anything to support their statements as anything but literal.

This is what he said:

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Dabra doesn’t explain directly why they can’t use Nahare and Kibito’s energy in that instance, but the most likely reason is that beings from Daima realm don’t have a high level of “mortal” or “pure” energy. They are mostly powered by “magic” energy, which is apparently a whole different concept from ki, which was the type of energy needed to unseal Boo. At the least, Nahare and Kibito have a little of ki, since they can be sensed by Goku and the others.

Teleportation and Babidi’s magic are also described as troublesome, despite they obviously not representing strength level.

Babidi's magic is very powerful. We see this from his ability to subdue enemies millions of times stronger than him.

Yeah, but I’m on a different page. The point is that it can do that stuff, but doesn’t translate into actual battle power. It’s more like an unique asset. Troublesome is not necessarily the same as powerful in its own right, and certainly wasn’t used with this intent in Elder Kaioshin’s description of Pure Boo.

Absorptions of Kaioshin are established as a negative for Kid Buu, and not absorptions of non-Kaioshin. As for why he would do that, no one knows.

Actually, only the Dai Kaioshin lowered his power. The absorption of the South Kaioshin made Boo more powerful, because he had a larger amount of “pure” energy than the other Kaioshins that Boo made use of. If Boo felt he got weaker, he probably wouldn’t have tried doing the same thing again. The Dai Kaioshin’s heart is what specifically was stated to have weaken Boo, or maybe it was in fact his magic or godly powers. He did that to Moro, after all.

When it comes to “common sense,” I think it’s less about overthinking and more about trying to understand why Elder Kaioshin calls Kid Buu the “most troublesome” one; to me, he is talking about this Buu’s volatile nature, even if other forms are more dangerous or have similar levels of evil.

There's too much emphasis on the "most troublesome" translation being the only possible translation into English for this. It could also be understood as "most difficult," "worst of the bunch," and any other synonym you can find.

It’s because that is the wording Herms uses in the Strength Checker thread, but I guess “worst” fits well enough. The website uses “purest, most evil form”.

[Almighty Majin]

Glorio vs Tapion
Panzy vs Cheelai

[AtlasFlame18]

Cell Games Arc SS Gohan vs. Tamagami #3

The fight is in the mountains where Goku and Vegeta first fought.

[Berserker1921]

Cell Games Arc SS Gohan vs. Tamagami #3

The fight is in the mountains where Goku and Vegeta first fought.

I think Gohan, loses even at ssj2. Tamagami 3 was able to deflect a stronger ss2 energy blast. This is a more refined Ssj2 Goku from the Buu saga. Who was already stated to be above Gohan from the cell games.

[Hugo Boss]

Tamagami #3 likely holds the upper hand only if Gohan stops at Super Saiyan 1. By the Cell Games, Gohan (especially after transforming into Super Saiyan 2) was leagues above most characters of his time, including Perfect Cell. I think Tamagami #3 is unlikely to match that level of raw power and speed, despite Goku (in his Super Saiyan 2 form) ramping up significantly to handle him. If Gohan accesses Super Saiyan 2, Tamagami #3 would probably be outclassed.

SS2 Gohan from 25th world champion tournament and Tamagami #3 would make for an interesting matchup though.

[ZombieVito]

Cell Games Arc SS Gohan vs. Tamagami #3

The fight is in the mountains where Goku and Vegeta first fought.

Gohan gets one shotted.

Tamagami 3 is SS2 tier.

[Michelle91]

Basil vs. Tamagami #3

Who wins?

[Berserker1921]

Basil vs. Tamagami #3

Who wins?

Basil. He was fighting decently against a stronger ssj2 Gohan. I wouldn’t put it past him, that basil could give trouble to ssj vegito from buu saga or ssj god goku from BOG

[ZombieVito]

Basil vs. Tamagami #3

Who wins?

Basil. He was fighting decently against a stronger ssj2 Gohan. I wouldn’t put it past him, that basil could give trouble to ssj vegito from buu saga or ssj god goku from BOG

Basil never fought Gohan.

[Berserker1921]

Basil vs. Tamagami #3

Who wins?

Basil. He was fighting decently against a stronger ssj2 Gohan. I wouldn’t put it past him, that basil could give trouble to ssj vegito from buu saga or ssj god goku from BOG

Basil never fought Gohan.

Oh! Got him confused with the poison one. Buu’s regen is what saved him. We don’t know how strong Buu was then. This was before he started training. Did Buu grow in power from DBZ to Super?

[ZombieVito]

Oh! Got him confused with the poison one. Buu’s regen is what saved him. We don’t know how strong Buu was then. This was before he started training. Did Buu grow in power from DBZ to Super?

Nothing was noted until he trained so no.

Basil is probably high SS2 tier without the drug so a fight with Tamagami 3 would probably be the same as the latter's fight with Goku.

[Michelle91]

Tamagami 3 vs. Tagoma DBS

Who wins?

[Mystic-han]

Basil vs. Tamagami #3

Who wins?

Logically Basil , he was able to throw none serious Fat Buu around

[Almighty Majin]

Tamagami 3 vs. Tagoma DBS

Who wins?

Tamagami #3 destroys Tagoma especially a fighter as dishonorable as him.

[Michelle91]

Tamgami 3 vs. Botamo

Who wins?

[Noah]

New match:

Hypothetical Super Boo (SSJ3 Vegetto absorbed) vs. Final Form Freeza (RoF)

[TobyS]

New match:

Hypothetical Super Boo (SSJ3 Vegetto absorbed) vs. Final Form Freeza (RoF)

If it's only final form not gold he takes it. Vegetto pre god is weaker than god, but with regen and hax and skill he can do it. I think anime version could even outlast gold forms stamina issue