Absurdities of claiming that canon does not exist

[VegettoEX]

Well, it's worth noting that we don't have everything in existence translated, and I haven't personally read everything that exists in Japanese -- especially because I can't really read it myself!

There are probably tons of random little citations spread across tons of media, but the only thing that really comes to mind is the same old thing that gets trotted out all the time: the "stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic" comment from Toriyama that you can twist into meaning whatever it is you want it to mean to fit your specific narrative.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Well, it's worth noting that we don't have everything in existence translated, and I haven't personally read everything that exists in Japanese -- especially because I can't really read it myself!

There are probably tons of random little citations spread across tons of media, but the only thing that really comes to mind is the same old thing that gets trotted out all the time: the "stories in a different dimension from the main story of the comic" comment from Toriyama that you can twist into meaning whatever it is you want it to mean to fit your specific narrative.

I suppose this other "dimension" is more of a wave hand scenario than anything literal like how Xeno Goku is meant to be from another dimension also?

What is another dimension even meant to be? Is that the same thing as another timeline? Is Future Trunks meant to be from a different dimension to Kid Trunks for example?

[MasenkoHA]

They are not.

I am probably 95% in line with what you're going at in this conversation, but we do have the case of Episode of Bardock which is explicitly listed as a "What If?" in that exact verbiage in its introduction by its author.

Are there examples of this for anything else? Most notably the older theatrical movies?

AFAIK no they haven't.


I feel like people tend to overlook the fact that the movies are usually made to 1. Not be tied down to the current going ons of the tv series 2. Are made before certain developments in the manga happened that Toei can't possibly account for.

Thus you get things like Rebirth of Fusion which seems to take place after Boo is defeated but Goku and Vegeta are still dead because the movie went into production before either of them came back to life. Gohan is back on earth because it was inevitable that he would be back.

Less "What If" and more "We didn't know Toriyama was going to go that route"

Of course the anime is going to line up with the manga, it's an adaptation of the manga. The manga is prioritized because it's the source material. That doesn't mean they can't be viewed as their own separate continuities.

Adaptations don't necessarily contradict themselves when new information from the source material comes out. The Dragon Ball anime does that on the regular.

Oh Piccolo completely decimated Goku's space pod? Well Goku took it to Brief's in the manga so not anymore he didn't.

That's not to say stuff that the anime creates doesn't matter or is less valid or never happened just that it will disregard things as needed when the manga contradicts it and not even try to make it work.

And like others have said, the concept tends to be used by fans as a thinly-veiled way to prop up/punch down on stuff they like/don't like (Toriyama's involvement tends to be used in much the same fashion).

I agree with that but statements like "Nothing is canon because no one in authority used those exact words" just kind of feels like people needing things they enjoy to not feel invalidated.

I always said if you enjoy the Bardock tv special over Dragon Ball Minus/Act 1 of Super Broli who the hell cares if the latter has been deemed the new official version by Toriyama/Toei/whomever

[Adamant]

What is another dimension even meant to be? Is that the same thing as another timeline? Is Future Trunks meant to be from a different dimension to Kid Trunks for example?

It is, in essence, Toriyama saying "This is something I didn't write, it may not fit with what I did write, and it may not even attempt to do so."

All this obsession with "canon" seems to stem from treating the anime as some kind of baseline instead of an adaptation.

[TheGreatness25]

I'm going to weigh in with my meager opinion on the subject. And I'll admit that I go back and forth on this because it's something that I can see from different angles.

I think that canon, continuity, and all of these very linear, clear story points are so important for fans who were around during the dormant Dragon Ball period. I think that for years, all that the Dragon Ball community had was basically information hording and fine-tuning its knowledge of the existing story. Nobody thought that it would change, nobody thought that it would be added to. Being a Dragon Ball fan meant discussing things like sub vs. dub, GT's place in the story, and just overanalyzing the tiniest, most minute details. Because the series was dead--there was nothing new to talk about. So, the same things were discussed until they were grounded into the tiniest, finest detail.

So, along came something new that severely disrupted the status quo. Bardock's story, end-of-Z, GT's entire existence, all of these things were now affected. And the things that the Dragon Ball community spent years talking about have been washed away.

I think that's why there's this almost obsession with compartmentalizing different portions of the series. I think that's why fans feel the need to say, "No, this is canon--the thing that I spent ten years talking about--and this contradicting stuff is just side stuff."

I get it. I get the feeling of wanting everything in a nice, neat package where you don't have to start every conversation with an explanation of which version of the series you're about to talk about.

But reality is that nobody working on Dragon Ball cares enough about it and all it's doing, is driving us crazy.

[Grimlock]

I am probably 95% in line with what you're going at in this conversation, but we do have the case of Episode of Bardock which is explicitly listed as a "What If?" in that exact verbiage in its introduction by its author.

I think I should have mentioned in parenthesis the only exception to that, yeah. Bardock OVA is the one work where it was stated to be a "what-if". The point/argument (that I will be making if Anonymous Friend replies to me) that the TV Specials and movies are not what-if still stands.

I assume that, also by taking into consideration what you said in your next post, the other five percent you don't agree with me has to do with Toriyama and his statement about dimension. Since I remember you commenting about it to me once, also in tone of disagreement. Maybe we should discuss that? If you want.

I have no other way to interpret Toriyama's words other than seeing it from an in-universe perspective. "Different dimension from the main story of the comic"? Why would you phrase it like that if not to be seen from such perspective? If all you're saying is that you're not involved in those projects, I'm sure you would use easier words to accomplish that, right?

Either way, we are no longer living in a period where all that exists is that Toriyama's line. Things have become more difficult. I have gathered some (of many) instances where Dimps might have actually established his line to be seen from an in-universe point of view:




More in the spoiler:

Spoiler:

Or even if Dimps doesn't know about what Toriyama said, it's clear that regardless of that, they (Dimps, Shueisha (?), Dragon Room (?)) think the movies do take place in an alternate history too. So even if I was "twisting into meaning whatever it is I want it to mean to fit my specific narrative", I would still have sources backing my point of view up now.

I suppose this other "dimension" is more of a wave hand scenario than anything literal like how Xeno Goku is meant to be from another dimension also?

Xeno Goku comes decades later after Toriyama's statement, which might or might not corroborate with what he said. As far as Dragon Ball Heroes (also a Dimps game) is concerned and based on what I said above, it seems to be something literal, yes.

Is that the same thing as another timeline?

Yes. "Timeline" can be used as a synonym for "dimension", but you need to understand some differences. This is, even for me (a translator and an enthusiast of this subject), a tricky issue to tackle and to explain. But I'll try to be as clear as I can be below.

Is Future Trunks meant to be from a different dimension to Kid Trunks for example?

No. Future Trunks and present Trunks live in/share the same dimension, they are only separated by "time". Universe 7 denizens and Universe 6 denizens live in/share the same dimension, they are only separated by "space" (this obviously goes to all the other Universes, I'm narrowing down to two to make things easier to understand).

The dimension where the movies take place may lie in the very same space and time as the "main dimension" or not. This will depend on the writer and how they deal with this topic. But one thing that can help you understand the difference is the method you use to travel to these places:

• To another timeline generated by time travel - you generally use a time machine (in Dragon Ball: Trunks' time machine, Time Rings).
• To another Universe - you use any means of transport capable of taking you there (in Dragon Ball: angels' cube, Kaioshin of East's teleportation technique).
• To another dimension - you use any device or transport, generally by opening up a portal/rift (in Dragon Ball: Goku Black's scythe, Towa and Fu's abilities).

This is not set in stone, obviously, but if you pay attention, this is generally how it goes in fiction. In Dragon Ball specifically, you can't access other dimensions by time traveling or by cubes (it has never been done until this very moment). Also in Dragon Ball, we know that those Trunks live in the same dimension because they both share the very same aspects, one of them being that neither of them features movie villains. If for some reason one of the Trunks who are only separated by time lived in another dimension, then one of them should be facing Hirudegarn, for example, but neither of them did. No Hirudegarn in the present or future timelines (and most certainly in other timelines generated by time travel as well), so we must conclude that there's no Hirudegarn in the dimension they live.

This is what separates these concepts. It is common that you will find "dimension", "universe" and whatnot being used interchangeably, especially if we are translating a foreigner work (like Dragon Ball), in this case, the translator will probably use the best word that the target audience is already familiarized with, but that doesn't necessarily mean is correct. This is something we should be careful about when in process of translating.

[Xeno Goku Black]

So....the multiverse and it's...half a dozen was it? Timelines was all in one dimension? What is the Demon Realm and Otherworld classed as then? That's another what? Just another realm? That's not classed as another dimension is it?

It is a little confusing because something like SDBH at the moment involves Aeos wiping out "histories" was the word I think it was written as.

Is that really meant to be dimensions then?

What do they really mean by these Space-Time distortions that also appear in SDBH every now and then? Are they gateways to other dimensions?

There was no mention of anything like this in the original manga? Officially was this something that began with Xeno Goku and the like?

[Adamant]

This is what separates these concepts. It is common that you will find "dimension", "universe" and whatnot being used interchangeably, especially if we are translating a foreigner work (like Dragon Ball), in this case, the translator will probably use the best word that the target audience is already familiarized with, but that doesn't necessarily mean is correct. This is something we should be careful about when in process of translating.

Not sure if you realized, but even those screenshots you posted from the same game translate 歴史 two different ways, as both "histories" and "timelines".

[pepd]

Movies specials and whatnots are all What Ifs.

They are not.

when people use the word, no one is picturing any specific texts or official release. We're all thinking of the general concept.

So there's where lies the problem and all of their misconceptions. People should be picturing any specific text or official release if they want to use canon as argument. And what is the "general concept"?

By the way, I'm still waiting for some evidences on this:

And even if Toriyama or doesn't release an Official Book of Canon, doesn't mean the concept isn't present there.

Please give us some examples so maybe we can get somewhere.

He is talking about continuity, I'll venture to guess that by "general concept" he means common use of the term: fictional-canon, like everyone else.

When you write (and for most people also when you read one, hence the topic) a story you have to consider the stablished story. So, the concept, canon, fictional canon, that constitutes a continuity of a story, is present.

What would require evidence, is to say that he doesn't follow this fundamental process, that is the only way he wouldn't consider one continuity when writing: the main continuity people are referring to when saying "canon".

[Majin Buu]

That's not to say stuff that the anime creates doesn't matter or is less valid or never happened just that it will disregard things as needed when the manga contradicts it and not even try to make it work.

That's true, and I'd rather the anime drop the original stuff that contradicts the source material than try to awkwardly fit it in (some of those contradictions can be head-canoned away though for those that are into that).

I agree with that but statements like "Nothing is canon because no one in authority used those exact words" just kind of feels like people needing things they enjoy to not feel invalidated.

I agree that the latter does sometimes feel like a motivator for those who make that argument; but no one in authority has said anything definitive on the matter, so that part isn't untrue.

I always said if you enjoy the Bardock tv special over Dragon Ball Minus/Act 1 of Super Broli who the hell cares if the latter has been deemed the new official version by Toriyama/Toei/whomever

The types of fans I mentioned that tend to weaponize the concept to support their viewpoints. Also power scalers. In my experience, canon was typically brought up in strength discussions as evidence for/against any given character's level of strength. Canon is everything when you're deep in those waters.

[MasenkoHA]

That's not to say stuff that the anime creates doesn't matter or is less valid or never happened just that it will disregard things as needed when the manga contradicts it and not even try to make it work.

That's true, and I'd rather the anime drop the original stuff that contradicts the source material than try to awkwardly fit it in (some of those contradictions can be head-canoned away though for those that are into that).

It's less that I care how the anime handles things when it comes to manga revealing information that contradicts what the anime said and more it's clear what authority the anime always defers to.

I agree that the latter does sometimes feel like a motivator for those who make that argument; but no one in authority has said anything definitive on the matter, so that part isn't untrue.

Sure, but I don't get this "We need these exact words to be uttered" mentality at all.

Actions speak louder than words and all that.

Shitty analogy time.

If you known someone for a long time who doesn't eat meat but they never said they eat or don't eat meat but you know for a fact they have never ate meat and then invite them over for dinner and only serve meat telling them "Well you never told me you don't eat meat!" is kind of a cop out.

If everything Dragon Ball related ultimately defers to what the manga says (or what Toriyama writes really) then it kind of seems a given what the canon is.

Toriyama never said GT wasn't canon. He just ignored it and continued to provide concepts to Toyotaro and Toei that make GT impossible to happen. But we'll never know if GT is considered canon or not I guess.

The types of fans I mentioned that tend to weaponize the concept to support their viewpoints. Also power scalers. In my experience, canon was typically brought up in strength discussions as evidence for/against any given character's level of strength. Canon is everything when you're deep in those waters.

At the risk of being dismissive I would just say their opinions don't matter. I need this to count or I can't enjoy it is just kind of dumb.

Like GT and hate Super? Then fuck Super and go out and enjoy GT.

Power scalers are a lost cause. So there' s that too.

[VegettoEX]

If everything Dragon Ball related ultimately defers to what the manga says (or what Toriyama writes really) then it kind of seems a given what the canon is.

But this isn't the case.

[MasenkoHA]

If everything Dragon Ball related ultimately defers to what the manga says (or what Toriyama writes really) then it kind of seems a given what the canon is.

But this isn't the case.

Has there been a single instance of Bandai or Toei just outright ignoring something Toriyama established?

[VegettoEX]

Has there been a single instance of Bandai or Toei just outright ignoring something Toriyama established?

The Trunks TV special continues to be the underlying basis of "true events" according to every adaptation after it, rather than Toriyama's version.

[Grimlock]

Timelines was all in one dimension?

As I prefer to use the "timeline" term to refer specifically to different timelines generated by time travel, yes. They would all be in the same dimension.

What is the Demon Realm and Otherworld classed as then? Just another realm?

Yes. They are all planes of existence. Any other dimension would have its own Demon Realm and Otherworld.

It is a little confusing because something like SDBH at the moment involves Aeos wiping out "histories" was the word I think it was written as.

Is that really meant to be dimensions then?

It's all mixed up. Everyone is there, so there's people from different timelines (generated by time travel) meeting each other, as well as people from different dimension meeting each other.

What do they really mean by these Space-Time distortions that also appear in SDBH every now and then?

It means exactly that, space-time distortions, which allows people from different space and time to be at the same place.

Are they gateways to other dimensions?

Yes, it can be used to that effect.

Not sure if you realized, but even those screenshots you posted from the same game translate 歴史 two different ways, as both "histories" and "timelines".

Yes, I'm aware of that. Though I wouldn't say "different ways". "History" and "timeline" are both broad terms, they are not specifying anything in particular, so I would say it's okay to translate "rekishi" to those terms. I have my own particularities about it, but nothing that makes one of those terms invalid. Your point?

I'll venture to guess that by "general concept" he means common use of the term: fictional-canon, like everyone else.

Oh, I remember "fictional-canon" that you said before, along with the Wikipedia source. If that's what everyone else thinks to be the "common use", then that's a problem everyone should correct themselves.

When you write (and for most people also when you read one, hence the topic) a story you have to consider the stablished story. So, the concept, canon, fictional canon, that constitutes a continuity of a story, is present.

I think you are confusing "canonicity" with "spin-off", i.e. derivative works of the original material. Yes, you need to consider the foundation for which your story will be based upon, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with canonicity. Examples:

• Bardock OVA - the established story/foundation for this material is Bardock TV Special.
• Trunks manga/TV Special - the established story/foundation for this material is Trunks appearances in the Dragon Ball manga.
• Jaco, the Galactic Patrolman - the established story/foundation for this material is the Dragon Ball manga.
• Goku Junior TV Special - the established story/foundation for this material is Dragon Ball GT.

Even so, we still don't have any statement of what's canonical and what's not (also because "spin-off" has nothing to do with "canon", to begin with).

[pepd]

I'll venture to guess that by "general concept" he means common use of the term: fictional-canon, like everyone else.

Oh, I remember "fictional-canon" that you said before, along with the Wikipedia source. If that's what everyone else thinks to be the "common use", then that's another problem everyone should correct themselves.

That's not how language works, but I think that has been covered many times already, along with all your other points.

[Adamant]

Your point?

No point, just thought it was a good example and wasn't sure you had noticed, since you made no mention of it.

[Peach]

There are multiple continuities. We don't know what is or isn't canon.

1. Dragon Ball & Dragon Ball Z anime, some movies, History of Trunks, Bardock, GT, and the GT movie

2. Dragon Ball movies set in their own universes (example: Path to Power)

3. The Z movies (Excluding BOG and RF), some of which get referenced in other continuities.

4. YO! Son Goku & His Friends Return, Battle of Gods (which references Tarble), and Resurrection F

5. The Dragon Ball Super tv series, which references some of the filler from Z (Hercule's body guards, Yardrats, and Gregory on King Kai's) but not all filler (Frieza getting beat up by Pikkon)

6. The Dragon Ball Super manga (which references Toei Yardrats,Dragon Ball Online Yardrats, and the other supreme kai's)

7. Broly movie, which references the Tournament of Power but also Vegeta's brother from Yo Son Goku and his Friends Return that the Super anime did not reference

8. Xenoverse, FighterZ, and other games.

9. Dragon Ball Heroes

10. The Manga, Jaco: The Galactic Patrol Man, and Dragon Ball Minus



The "canon" is confusing. People need to just be honest with themselves and say "i like this story because there's creator involvement." It seems certain people just gravitate more towards those continuities. Even in the so called canon continuities, they still cherry pick things from other continuities that Toei created.

[ClutchBangstrip]

I personally don't think there's a true canon. I mean there obviously has to be, but I don't think it's well defined and I wouldn't waste time vigorously shoving my opinions of it down everyone's throat.

[TheMikado]

Whatever Toriyama approves of and stamps his name on even indirectly (I.e. filler episodes, movies, etc.) is canon.

Period.

If Toriyama allowed it, then it’s canon unless he says otherwise.