If Super Saiyan 2 and 3 never existed.

[Xeztin]

I've been thinking about Dragon Ball's transformations lately, mainly Super Saiyan as a whole. If Ssj2 and 3 are basically levels of SSJ rather than different forms, then that would arrive at the conclusion that SSG is actually the second known Saiyan transformation, and Ssj4 with the possibility of being the 3rd if it was renamed. What if Ssj2 and 3 never existed though? Would the series have fallen in popularity if it continued from the Frieza arc with SSJ getting stronger, and fighting stronger villains rather than different "forms" or levels, nothing noticeably different. In my opinion the series was supposed to end at the Frieza Arc, and that SSJ2 and 3 were not even thoughts at this point. I think Frieza's multiple transformations and getting stronger and stronger was what influenced there being another SSJ level. If frieza didn't have all of those forms, would it be safe to say a Saiyan wouldn't either? And if they didn't would you still have watched DBZ?

[fadeddreams5]

That's basically how it was until the Buu saga, which is regarded as the weakest by a majority.

And before someone claims SSJ2 was introduced in the Cell saga, no it wasn't.

[ekrolo2]

The novelty of them is good, but personally I think we could've done without them. Dragon Ball Z was perfectly fun to watch way before the initial Super Saiyan was even a thing and I even like that post BoG stuff implied 2 and 3 were going to be done away with.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

That's basically how it was until the Buu saga, which is regarded as the weakest by a majority.

And before someone claims SSJ2 was introduced in the Cell saga, no it wasn't.

Weakest what? Saga? And did you survey every single Dragon Ball fan in the world to come up with that conclusion?

[FoolsGil]

Well first, people don't watch DBZ for the transformations, so no it would not have fallen in popularity if there were no extra transformations. If Anything it would make the series more beloved since people make fun of the show these days because of the endless transformations. Perhaps Freeza having multiple transformations may have influenced more transformations, maybe not, but I would have watched DBZ regardless.

[fadeddreams5]

And did you survey every single Dragon Ball fan in the world to come up with that conclusion?

Yes.

[successoroffate]

Then SSJ 4 would be SSJ 2 or just Legendary Super Saiyan. And, Gohan SSJ 2 would be just Ascended SSJ instead

[Chuquita]

I got into this series during reruns of the early Freeza arc, so kaio-ken was my thing (I thought it was cool and liked that it came with its own dangers) and I was sad to see it vanished away in favor of ssj. I still would've watched even if there was no ssj.

[the1payday]

That's basically how it was until the Buu saga, which is regarded as the weakest by a majority.

And before someone claims SSJ2 was introduced in the Cell saga, no it wasn't.

I'm not following your logic that SSJ2 was not introduced in the Cell saga. Can you clarify what you mean for me?

[precita]

Super Saiyan 2 was so lame they didn't even name it in the show. Nobody outside of teen Gohan even looks different in SSJ2 either.

[ekrolo2]

That's basically how it was until the Buu saga, which is regarded as the weakest by a majority.

And before someone claims SSJ2 was introduced in the Cell saga, no it wasn't.

I'm not following your logic that SSJ2 was not introduced in the Cell saga. Can you clarify what you mean for me?

SSJ2 wasn't meant as a whole new level, just another grade if that one guide is to be believed. Now it basically is given Toriyama's whole "they're just upgrades to the regular Super Saiyan" comment.

You can find the info on that tidbit here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22411

[the1payday]

That's basically how it was until the Buu saga, which is regarded as the weakest by a majority.

And before someone claims SSJ2 was introduced in the Cell saga, no it wasn't.

I'm not following your logic that SSJ2 was not introduced in the Cell saga. Can you clarify what you mean for me?

SSJ2 wasn't meant as a whole new level, just another grade if that one guide is to be believed. Now it basically is given Toriyama's whole "they're just upgrades to the regular Super Saiyan" comment.

You can find the info on that tidbit here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22411

I see your logic then. I still think it's not unfair just to call them SSJ2 and SSJ3 though. I mean, they ARE just extensions of Super Saiyan, not entirely new forms, like going from Base to SSJ WOULD be. Still, "Second stage of SSJ" can just be called SSJ2, can't it?

[fadeddreams5]

That's basically how it was until the Buu saga, which is regarded as the weakest by a majority.

And before someone claims SSJ2 was introduced in the Cell saga, no it wasn't.

I'm not following your logic that SSJ2 was not introduced in the Cell saga. Can you clarify what you mean for me?

The SSJ2 term was not coined until the Buu saga; it wasn't a "thing" until then. In the Cell saga, that form was simply Gohan tapping into and being in full control of his hidden powers, allowing him, and only him, to properly ascend far beyond the SSJ state, which was the goal of the entire saga.

This topic seems to only be referring to the Buu saga, which is where SSJ2 was officially introduced, they jumped the shark further with SSJ3 (as cool as it may look), we had kid SSJs, Gohan's powers were unlocked for the third time, and fusions were created. Thanks to this saga numbering the SSJ forms, Toei was inspired to create SSJ4, and fans were subsequently motivated to draw SSJ5 to SSJ1000000xyz. Thanks to fusion, we have all these what-ifs, as well as inconsistent Gogetas. And now in modern material, they took it to the next level by rendering all of these forms irrelevant/insignificant and introducing even more transformations, only this time, they're palette swaps of previously existing forms!

The Buu saga is the catalyst of many things that have plagued this franchise for years. Mind you, I like it, even if it is the weakest DBZ saga.

[the1payday]

That's basically how it was until the Buu saga, which is regarded as the weakest by a majority.

And before someone claims SSJ2 was introduced in the Cell saga, no it wasn't.

I'm not following your logic that SSJ2 was not introduced in the Cell saga. Can you clarify what you mean for me?

The SSJ2 term was not coined until the Buu saga; it wasn't a "thing" until then. In the Cell saga, that form was simply Gohan tapping into and being in full control of his hidden powers, allowing him, and only him, to properly ascend far beyond the SSJ state, which was the goal of the entire saga.

This topic seems to only be referring to the Buu saga, which is where SSJ2 was officially introduced, they jumped the shark further with SSJ3 (as cool as it may look), we had kid SSJs, Gohan's powers were unlocked for the third time, and fusions were created. Thanks to this saga numbering the SSJ forms, Toei was inspired to create SSJ4, and fans were subsequently motivated to draw SSJ5 to SSJ1000000xyz. Thanks to fusion, we have all these what-ifs, as well as inconsistent Gogetas. And now in modern material, they took it to the next level by rendering all of these forms irrelevant/insignificant and introducing even more transformations, only this time, they're palette swaps of previously existing forms!

The Buu saga is the catalyst of many things that have plagued this franchise for years. Mind you, I like it, even if it is the weakest DBZ saga.

I understand your point and the logic behind it, but just because it's not officially named until later, it doesn't mean that it wasn't SSJ2 until it was officially named. I hope that made sense. It would be like saying "Goku was never a saiyan until DBZ began, because that's when him being a Saiyan officially became a plot point. I get that Akira Toriyama basically never intended him to be anything more than a boy with a tail, until when he decided to make him an alien, but once it's penned, it's official, even if it comes after the fact, in my opinion at least.

[ekrolo2]

I'm not following your logic that SSJ2 was not introduced in the Cell saga. Can you clarify what you mean for me?

SSJ2 wasn't meant as a whole new level, just another grade if that one guide is to be believed. Now it basically is given Toriyama's whole "they're just upgrades to the regular Super Saiyan" comment.

You can find the info on that tidbit here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... =7&t=22411

I see your logic then. I still think it's not unfair just to call them SSJ2 and SSJ3 though. I mean, they ARE just extensions of Super Saiyan, not entirely new forms, like going from Base to SSJ WOULD be. Still, "Second stage of SSJ" can just be called SSJ2, can't it?

I'm fine with the naming myself but Toriyama seems to consider them as just more grades instead of true evolutions as we thought they were. Improved grades over 2 and 3 but grades nonetheless, leaving 4 as the only potentially real "evolutionary" form thus far.

[the1payday]

Oh. That might be where the confusion is coming from. Personally, I've always just considered them extensions of SSJ and not "new forms" necessarily, aside from SSJ1, being a "new form" over base state. But that being said, I still call them SSJ2 and SSJ3, because it's easy, and is basically what Goku names them in the Boo arc anyways.

[ekrolo2]

That's because Goku doesn't fuss over technicalities like proper naming and just goes with what's easiest, unlike the fans.

[fadeddreams5]

I understand your point and the logic behind it, but just because it's not officially named until later, it doesn't mean that it wasn't SSJ2 until it was officially named. I hope that made sense. It would be like saying "Goku was never a saiyan until DBZ began, because that's when him being a Saiyan officially became a plot point. I get that Akira Toriyama basically never intended him to be anything more than a boy with a tail, until when he decided to make him an alien, but once it's penned, it's official, even if it comes after the fact, in my opinion at least.

I'm not arguing that Gohan wasn't a SSJ2 in the Cell Games. As you said, it's official now. But at that point in the story, that form was associated with Gohan's hidden powers, which was something the audience/readers knew about for a long time. It was an ascension only he could access, and completely ambiguous in every other regard. The Buu saga demonstrated that this wasn't the case at all.

Likewise, Goku is still a saiyan in Dragon Ball, but it wasn't until the saiyan saga that "saiyans" became a thing; this is where they were introduced, even if the viewers were introduced to Goku in the first episode of Dragon Ball. Don't like this decision? Well, the saiyan saga is to blame. Similarly, the Buu saga gave Goku and Vegeta "SSJ2," coined the term, gave kids the ability to go SSJ, and took it a step further with SSJ3. As such, I blame it for being the point of the series that went transformation crazy. The Cell saga, on the other hand, was focused entirely on only the SSJ form.

[WittyUsername]

By this point in time, SSJ2 and 3 seem to be pretty much be irrelevant transformations. When Goku's SSJG form wore off in Battle of Gods, he transformed into a regular SSJ and didn't go anywhere beyond that, and of course, SSJGSSJ is basically just a pallete swapped version of the regular SSJ transformation in terms of design.

[Xeztin]

By this point in time, SSJ2 and 3 seem to be pretty much be irrelevant transformations. When Goku's SSJG form wore off in Battle of Gods, he transformed into a regular SSJ and didn't go anywhere beyond that, and of course, SSJGSSJ is basically just a pallete swapped version of the regular SSJ transformation in terms of design.

Yes I noticed that too, It seem's like once he reverted back to SSJ with God Ki, that he could have went SSJ 3 with Godly Ki to be even stronger, but in both the Movie and Super he did not, nor did he in F.