How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.

Moderators: Kanzenshuu Staff, General Help

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5264
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:25 pm

No, demon is not a species in this series
Then what is Dabura and the "Demon Realm"? O.o

Weren't there demons in dragon ball too? I think that was filler though...
Yes, it does matter if it's unintentional or not because intent is at the very crux of what a retcon is. A retcon is retroactively changing intent. Whether or not it goes hand-in-hand with what we know before has no affect on whether or not it's a retcon because fitting into the story is more of an in-universe concern while retcon concerns itself more with the out-of-universe, i.e., the author's intent. If Toriyama did not intend Goku to be an alien from the beginning, he was not writing Goku as an alien. If Toriyama was not writing him as an alien, Goku was not an alien. When Toriyama decided Goku was an alien, he became an alien, and, by consequence, he retroactively became an alien in all those previous stories where he was not. In-universe, that means he's always an alien. Out-of-universe, he only became an alien the moment Toriyama made it up. That's retcon.
But what if Toriyama never said anything at all about this? If Toriyama intended on Goku being an alien from the beginning, nothing changes. Was Goku even ever specifically labeled as anything else, be it alien, human, or whatever in any official source material before being declared a saiyan?
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20405
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:31 pm

Retconning also can't simply be a matter of the author's intent. No TV series has the entire backstory thought out ahead of time. There are things about the character's history that they figure out as they go along. Would you consider all of those things retcons even if it contradicts no information we learned before?
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6106
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:37 pm

I think you're focusing too much on narrative contradiction. A retcon can cause a contradiction in the story, but it doesn't have to. While I have no knowledge of the series I think your Justified example very much is a retcon. Character X was not Drew Thompson. Character X was changed to be Drew Thompson, thereby meaning he was retroactively always Drew Thompson. While that apparently does not cause any explicit contradictions in-universe, it does contradict the fact that the writers wrote him as not-Drew Thompson. It contradicts the fact that the actor played him as not-Drew Thompson. It contradicts the prior episodes that, in good faith, knew of and presented the character as not-Drew Thompson. That the new interpretation can accommodate such ideas seamlessly is irrelevant. The fact that there has to be a new interpretation in the first place is.
Retconning also can't simply be a matter of the author's intent. No TV series has the entire backstory thought out ahead of time. There are things about the character's history that they figure out as they go along. Would you consider all of those things retcons even if it contradicts no information we learned before?
Why can't it simply be a matter of the author's intent? And yes. Those would all be retcons (retroactive continuity). That it contradicts no information in the story is not at all pertinent to whether or not it is retroactively applied continuity. It really seems you're using the term retcon while thinking more of a plot hole or a continuity error.
Then what is Dabura and the "Demon Realm"? O.o

Weren't there demons in dragon ball too? I think that was filler though...
Good point. I really should have said "Mazoku" or "Demon Clan" from the beginning. At any rate, I'd just recommend you reading Kanzenshuu's Demon Guide. It is an excellent read and helps clear up all the different types of demonic people and creatures we see throughout the franchise.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 4/21/25!)
Current Episode: Freeza's Secret Son? - Dragon Ball Dissection: Neko Majin

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20405
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:50 pm

Why can't it simply be a matter of the author's intent? And yes. Those would all be retcons (retroactive continuity). That it contradicts no information in the story is not at all pertinent to whether or not it is retroactively applied continuity. It really seems you're using the term retcon while thinking more of a plot hole or a continuity error.
It seems you haven't thought it through either. If it's simply a matter of intent, then why create a new term to describe this VERY common practice? What was insufficient about the language before? Again, I say look back at the origin of the term. It apparently has to do with fitting in Golden age continuity with later continuities.

There's already a term for a few of the things I've mentioned, "Creating backstory".

I'm thinking that retcon involves continuity errors but that's not what it is entirely. Saying that two characters met in 1987, but showing them meeting in 1989 is a continuity error, though I don't think I would consider that a retcon. Taking away Donna Pinciotti's little sister is a retcon.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6106
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sat Oct 17, 2015 12:59 pm

I have thought it through very carefully, actually, and I've had this discussion many, many times over the years, even on these very boards. I was asking why it couldn't just be author's intent not because I don't know but because I don't understand why you're asking that. And why create a new term? Because up until it was created, there was no accurate term for this specific practice. "Creating backstory" is too broad because that can refer to any kind of backstory created at any time, not just backstory retroactively applied. Why was there not a term sooner? Because the advent of comics and television allowed the concepts of long-running series to become much more popular, which in turn made this phenomenon more prevalent. If you have a standalone novel or movie, retroactive continuity isn't going to factor into your story because the whole story is contained in a single work.
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 4/21/25!)
Current Episode: Freeza's Secret Son? - Dragon Ball Dissection: Neko Majin

User avatar
T Pac
Not-So-Newbie
Posts: 67
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:57 am

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by T Pac » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:05 pm

This is a really interesting topic that I've wondered about. Disappointing to end up reading pages of a semantic argument about the definition of 'retcon.'

As someone else mentioned, one of my regrets is that a lot of stuff was spoiled for me before -- Super Saiyan, Trunks, the whole Androids/Cell arc, etc. Would have been really cool to go through the series with a clean slate.

For those who did get that opportunity, what was the reaction to Goku growing up after King Piccolo? All the plot twists during the Cell arc? When Goku announces that Gohan would fight Cell, was that enough a crazy surprise or had it been foreshadowed enough for it to have been almost obvious?

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20405
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by ABED » Sat Oct 17, 2015 1:09 pm

Because up until it was created, there was no accurate term for this specific practice.
It was VERY common for writers to create histories that they didn't from the outset. At what point do you consider something not intentional? Do the writers have to create entire backstories BEFORE they ever put pen to paper then everything else that is thought of later is a retcon?

Creating backstory isn't too broad, it is what it is. It doesn't matter if it's thought of before or along the way, there's nothing that different between the two types. However, there's a world of difference between "Muten Roshi's master was killed by Piccolo" and "Donna's sister no longer exists and we're writing it as if she never existed".

The term originated in comics when golden age characters were interacting with silver age characters in a specific way. For instance, the Justice Society characters were said to have been around since the 40's, but Batman and Superman interacted with them, and yet, in the silver and modern ages, Batman and Superman's origins were more modern. Retroactive continuity fits better with these instances because it's describing something unique. Instead of just giving backstory that the authors didn't originally intent, they are changing history of their continuity selectively. So while the Golden Age existed back then and was part of a JSA, Batman and Superman didn't even though in the golden age, Superman and Batman were at least honorary members. It also fits when stories have sliding scales of history. Magneto is giving some form of immortality or just a much longer life so as to keep his history of being in a young Jewish boy sent to a concentration camp part of his history.
If you have a standalone novel or movie, retroactive continuity isn't going to factor into your story because the whole story is contained in a single work.
Why not? What if you create a backstory AS you go along in the book that you didn't think of initially, but it's still part of the same novel? And why aren't episodes considered part of a single work?
Disappointing to end up reading pages of a semantic argument about the definition of 'retcon.'
Why do people keep putting down semantics like it's unimportant? It matters to the discussion.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Lord Beerus
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 21422
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2014 5:20 pm
Location: A temple on a giant tree
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Oct 17, 2015 5:53 pm

They would have have been shocked as hell by that retcon. I know me and my friends were.

fatgreen
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2015 10:00 pm

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by fatgreen » Sat Oct 17, 2015 9:24 pm

T Pac wrote: For those who did get that opportunity, what was the reaction to Goku growing up after King Piccolo? All the plot twists during the Cell arc? When Goku announces that Gohan would fight Cell, was that enough a crazy surprise or had it been foreshadowed enough for it to have been almost obvious?
I remember thinking that it was really cool to see Goku grown taller and older after King Piccolo. I was disappointed that he lost his tail though I always found it to be so cool lol. (About King Piccolo, that part where he drinks from the glass by just gulping it without touching the glass really freaked me out) I don't remember what I thought about all the twists during the Cell arc, but I was so mad at Goku when he gave the senzu bean to Cell and didn't help Gohan, I wasn't really surprised about Gohan fighting Cell from what I remember.

User avatar
soulnova
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1376
Joined: Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:45 pm
Location: Mexico
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by soulnova » Sun Oct 18, 2015 12:58 am

I watched DB first and didn't know about the specifics of DBZ until about 1 month before its debut. I actually got a magazine that spoiled the EVERYTHING of DBZ. When I read the bit about Goku being an alien, I flipped in excitement.... because I assumed he WAS an alien the entire time.

Back during the Red Ribbon saga, when Goku's fighting Major Metallitron, he targets Goku and identifies him as an alien. Not an "alien" creature as strange, but as in extraterrestrial. The rest of the text is a direct reference to Alien (the movie) and a conversation between the Ripley and the Nostromo computer's orders. I actually got this easter egg right away the first time I watched the episode. I always assumed Goku actually was an alien and his heritage was the most well kept secret until DBZ.

Image

Also, Oolong wonders if he's even human (because of the Oozaru form) and even Goku himself wonders himself this during the Piccolo Daimao arc (for his own resilience). For me it made perfect sense. The funny thing is... the anime staff "predicted" this waaaaay before the manga even got to the 23rd Tournament.
Check out Journey's End, a short story of Goku and Vegeta's final days. "Time is running out for the last two Saiyans"

User avatar
fadeddreams5
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 5264
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 10:53 pm
Location: New York

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sun Oct 18, 2015 1:20 am

So, when Aizen was revealed to be a villain, was this also a retcon? Or when Kari was discovered to be the 8th digidestined? How about when the silver moon crystal was revealed to be inside Rini/Chibiusa's body?

Following the logic here, which I'm not saying is wrong at all, these are all retcons of some sort, as long as the author never planned these revelations from an earlier point in the story.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super

User avatar
Araki
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1453
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:54 am

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by Araki » Sun Oct 18, 2015 2:14 am

fadeddreams5 wrote:So, when Aizen was revealed to be a villain, was this also a retcon? Or when Kari was discovered to be the 8th digidestined? How about when the silver moon crystal was revealed to be inside Rini/Chibiusa's body?

Following the logic here, which I'm not saying is wrong at all, these are all retcons of some sort, as long as the author never planned these revelations from an earlier point in the story.
Yeah, i really can't apply that logic. As much as we get technical to justify the word and its use, we all know "retcon" holds a pejorative meaning these days.

In Fist of the North Star, to talk about another classic shonen, the backstory of the main characters, which was shown through flashbacks in the first part, is hugely rewritten in another flashback for part 2. It changes everything the authors had actually shown us before. That kind of thing is what comes to everyone's mind when "retcon" is brought up, not unplanned revelations that happen every month in long running manga like those.

The word lost such of its meaning that i've seen people saying a retelling (like DB Super) is a retcon now, which makes no sense, as retellings or remakes don't belong in the same continuity, they're just two adaptations of the same story.

User avatar
Gaffer Tape
Born 'n Bred Here
Posts: 6106
Joined: Tue Dec 08, 2009 5:25 pm
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by Gaffer Tape » Sun Oct 18, 2015 7:56 am

Araki wrote:Yeah, i really can't apply that logic. As much as we get technical to justify the word and its use, we all know "retcon" holds a pejorative meaning these days.
But if that's the case, that "retcon" is held up to a "pejorative" standard, then, by that logic, it essentially means, "Any change I don't like." And if so, it has lost any and all objective meaning and holds as much weight as calling someone a "weeaboo."
Do you follow the most comprehensive and entertaining Dragon Ball analysis series on YouTube? If you do, you're smart and awesome and fairly attractive. If not, see what all the fuss is about without even having to leave Kanzenshuu:

MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection Series Discussion Thread! (Updated 4/21/25!)
Current Episode: Freeza's Secret Son? - Dragon Ball Dissection: Neko Majin

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20405
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by ABED » Sun Oct 18, 2015 10:08 am

It can be a retcon and still be good. For instance, I like the idea of the golden age of DC comics being canon, even if only selectively. Even contradictions aren't necessarily awful. I would prefer if there weren't any in a story, but sometimes the new idea is better than the original.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Araki
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1453
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:54 am

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by Araki » Tue Oct 20, 2015 12:56 am

Gaffer Tape wrote:But if that's the case, that "retcon" is held up to a "pejorative" standard, then, by that logic, it essentially means, "Any change I don't like." And if so, it has lost any and all objective meaning and holds as much weight as calling someone a "weeaboo."
No, that's a different issue. I'm indifferent towards the retcon i mentioned, but it is still a retcon. In that case it's not debatable, it was a rewrite.

"Retcon" holds a pejorative meaning in a different way, like when people want to say some work isn't consistent, the author changes his mind all the time, it's affected by popularity, etc - then the word is brought up as if it is automatically something bad. Same with "Deus ex machina", that also got so overused, even when the twist had enough hints and build up before.

User avatar
ABED
Namekian Warrior
Posts: 20405
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:23 am
Location: Skippack, PA
Contact:

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by ABED » Tue Oct 20, 2015 9:12 am

Araki wrote:
Gaffer Tape wrote:But if that's the case, that "retcon" is held up to a "pejorative" standard, then, by that logic, it essentially means, "Any change I don't like." And if so, it has lost any and all objective meaning and holds as much weight as calling someone a "weeaboo."
<br abp="690"><br abp="691">No, that's a different issue. I'm indifferent towards the retcon i mentioned, but it is still a retcon. In that case it's not debatable, it was a rewrite.<br abp="692"><br abp="693">"Retcon" holds a pejorative meaning in a different way, like when people want to say some work isn't consistent, the author changes his mind all the time, it's affected by popularity, etc - then the word is brought up as if it is automatically something bad. Same with "Deus ex machina", that also got so overused, even when the twist had enough hints and build up before.
If there are hints and build up, it's not Deus Ex Machina. Deus ex machina is when a story is resolved without regard to the internal logic of the story. The ending of Superman is a great example. Luthor's plan is successful in detonating a bomb that cracks the San Andreas fault line, and as a result kills Lois. In his grief, Superman turns back time (it also seems like he selectively turns back time) and saves everyone. Where did he get this power to turn back time? It was never set up, and it resolves EVERYTHING in a nice little bow.

Retcons are different, regardless as to how they are defined.
The biggest truths aren't original. The truth is ketchup. It's Jim Belushi. Its job isn't to blow our minds. It's to be within reach.
"You miss 100% of the shots you don't take - Wayne Gretzky" - Michael Scott
Happiness is climate, not weather.

User avatar
Araki
Advanced Regular
Posts: 1453
Joined: Wed Apr 29, 2015 8:54 am

Re: How did DB fans react to Goku retconned as an alien?

Post by Araki » Wed Oct 21, 2015 12:36 am

ABED wrote:If there are hints and build up, it's not Deus Ex Machina. Deus ex machina is when a story is resolved without regard to the internal logic of the story. The ending of Superman is a great example. Luthor's plan is successful in detonating a bomb that cracks the San Andreas fault line, and as a result kills Lois. In his grief, Superman turns back time (it also seems like he selectively turns back time) and saves everyone. Where did he get this power to turn back time? It was never set up, and it resolves EVERYTHING in a nice little bow.

Retcons are different, regardless as to how they are defined.
I know it's different, i'm saying it's not unusual to see in an discussion board the expression "Deus Ex Machina" being brought up simply because the person didn't like the conclusion, ignoring any possible foreshadowing. Same way i've been seeing "retcon" overused, and often when someone wants to bash a revelation, a plot twist, or any work as a whole, no matter if it actually is a retcon, and automatically implying it's a bad thing. And then the words get so overused that they lose its initial meaning, gaining a new one that is more accepted, for better or worse.

But as i said, a rewrite isn't debatable, like an end that is pulled out of its ass isn't, either.

Post Reply