Let's Appreciate the Faulconer Score

[fadeddreams5]

I'm going to assume you guys are referring to 8-bit or low budget video games as a way to say the soundtrack sucks, in your opinion. lol

Modern video games have soundtracks comparable to movies and superior to most anime shows. =P

[TheGreatness25]

*Looks at title showing appreciation to Faulconer's work. Looks at most comments either tearing down Faulconner's work or giving backhanded compliments.*

Yeah this is great. I personally think all the music in the video games since Budokai sucks. I also happen to think the Super theme sucks.

But hey, this isn't the place for that. But by the same token, this isn't the place for Faulconer bashing either.

[Dbzfan94]

I'm going to assume you guys are referring to 8-bit or low budget video games as a way to say the soundtrack sucks, in your opinion. lol

Modern video games have soundtracks comparable to movies and superior to most anime shows. =P

Well Legacy of Goku 2 and Buu's Fury were on the GBA. And they may not have had the best budget those games are still really fun.

Anyway as a huge Team Faulconer fan I've always disagreed with some of what has been said about the score around here. Yes it's a replacement score and it never shuts up. I'll agree to that. However some people like to claim "it doesn't sound like Dragon Ball." What does this even mean? A score doesn't have to sound a certain way to fit the series.
If someone never saw the anime before and only read the manga, the appropriate score that would fit to them wouldn't always be a piece that sounds like Kikuchi. Some might hear something closer to Team Faulconer, or even Yamamoto.

Also some say it doesn't fit. I would agree with you in some instances, but not all. The same could be said for Kikuchi too though. There's not one single way a scene can be scored, as it can be interpreted in different ways while still keeping the spirit of the original intent in mind. Just because it's not Kikuchi and sounds different doesn't make it worse or unfitting

[ABED]

What does this even mean? A score doesn't have to sound a certain way to fit the series.

It means it doesn't fit the tone of the show.

Some might hear something closer to Team Faulconer

I doubt it would be something so techno, cheap, and hollow. DB is quirky and fun and based in Eastern folklore.

There's not one single way a scene can be scored, as it can be interpreted in different ways while still keeping the spirit of the original intent in mind

Agreed, though Faulconer's score isn't that. Faulconer often misses the point of the scenes, making them "badass" instead of scary.

[fadeddreams5]

I doubt it would be something so techno, cheap, and hollow. DB is quirky and fun and based in Eastern folklore.

"Cheap and hollow" is not what I hear with Faulconer.

Reading DBZ, I'd definitely envision many scenes with "badass" or bombastic music, which is standard for any 90s+ Shonen series ever. Kikuchi at many, many times does not capture what I expect from a series like Dragon Ball Z (specifically, the 2nd half of the story). Faulconer and Yamamoto do.

[VegettoEX]

While I don't think there's much point to storming into a thread like this (titled in that particular way) spewing out dissenting opinions... at the same time, we never want to tell people they can't discuss what they want to discuss. This is a pretty good opening for someone who has zero knowledge of / familiarity with / enjoyment of the Faulconer Productions replacement score to GET some of those thoughts and simultaneously share their own.

So long as you don't just come off as nothing more than yet another wet blanket, discuss away!

[ABED]

I doubt it would be something so techno, cheap, and hollow. DB is quirky and fun and based in Eastern folklore.

"Cheap and hollow" is not what I hear with Faulconer.

Reading DBZ, I'd definitely envision many scenes with "badass" or bombastic music, which is standard for any 90s+ Shonen series ever. Kikuchi at many, many times does not capture what I expect from a series like Dragon Ball Z (specifically, the 2nd half of the story). Faulconer and Yamamoto do.

Then I don't know what to tell you because that was never what the story was. It has a lot of badass moments, but that's not the entire show. It's much more than that. It's quirky and funny and silly and adventurous. Some of the villains are named after dairy products. Those things need to be reflected in the score. DBZ isn't the second half of the story and the difference between the two Piccolo arcs and the Saiyan arc isn't that big. There are individual songs I like but if your only impression of DBZ is that it's badass, that's a very surface level understanding of a show that has more to it than that. What about DBZ is SO different from DB that it justifies a radically different score?

[fadeddreams5]

I doubt it would be something so techno, cheap, and hollow. DB is quirky and fun and based in Eastern folklore.

"Cheap and hollow" is not what I hear with Faulconer.

Reading DBZ, I'd definitely envision many scenes with "badass" or bombastic music, which is standard for any 90s+ Shonen series ever. Kikuchi at many, many times does not capture what I expect from a series like Dragon Ball Z (specifically, the 2nd half of the story). Faulconer and Yamamoto do.

Then I don't know what to tell you because that was never what the story was. It has a lot of badass moments, but that's not the entire show. It's much more than that. It's quirky and funny and silly and adventurous. Some of the villains are named after dairy products. Those things need to be reflected in the score. DBZ isn't the second half of the story and the difference between the two Piccolo arcs and the Saiyan arc isn't that big. There are individual songs I like but if your only impression of DBZ is that it's badass, that's a very surface level understanding of a show that has more to it than that. What about DBZ is SO different from DB that it justifies a radically different score?

I wrote that I'd envision many scenes with badass/bombastic music, not all of them. I understand there's more to the series than just action, action, action. That said, I disagree that DBZ isn't different from the earlier half of DB before the Piccolo saga. That storyline was the catalyst to what the series would eventually become. There's a balance in the Saiyan-Cell sagas, but the spectrum falls more towards the serious side over comedic one, unlike early DB. That combined with the sci-fi themes and increased scale of the battles, which were also far more fast-paced, warranted a new soundtrack, imo. I'm not saying Faulconer's score was optimal, but in many ways it worked better than Kikuchi's, whose music never captured the intensity of the fights.

[ABED]

That storyline was the catalyst to what the series would eventually become. There's a balance in the Saiyan-Cell sagas, but the spectrum falls more towards the serious side over comedic one, unlike early DB.
This is why I don't think you truly grasp early DB, it's like you see all of early DB as jokey and comedic, Piccolo as the precursor to DBZ and then DBZ, but DB was constantly changing and evolving. Sure, Piccolo was a huge step, but it's not so radically different that the transition feels out of place tone wise. Let's not forget that Tao Pai Pai murdered Bora, and Tenshinhan is a very earnest villain. He's not Earth destroying evil, but he's not Pilaf either. Hell, Black shoots Comander Red in the head. DB gets serious a lot. I also disagree that the battles in DBZ are more fast paced or that it was for the better. I would argue that with the intensity of the Piccolo battles and even the Tenshinhan fight match anything in Z. Perhaps not the scale, but the stakes were no different. DB has amazing fights and a lot of great fast paced action. It's better to look at it as a progression, whereas you see it as almost a completely separate entity. DB always had sci-fi elements and those alone don't merit a completely different score.

[fadeddreams5]

That storyline was the catalyst to what the series would eventually become. There's a balance in the Saiyan-Cell sagas, but the spectrum falls more towards the serious side over comedic one, unlike early DB.
This is why I don't think you truly grasp early DB, it's like you see all of early DB as jokey and comedic, Piccolo as the precursor to DBZ and then DBZ, but DB was constantly changing and evolving. Sure, Piccolo was a huge step, but it's not so radically different that the transition feels out of place tone wise. Let's not forget that Tao Pai Pai murdered Bora, and Tenshinhan is a very earnest villain. He's not Earth destroying evil, but he's not Pilaf either. Hell, Black shoots Comander Red in the head. DB gets serious a lot. I also disagree that the battles in DBZ are more fast paced or that it was for the better. I would argue that with the intensity of the Piccolo battles and even the Tenshinhan fight match anything in Z. Perhaps not the scale, but the stakes were no different. DB has amazing fights and a lot of great fast paced action. It's better to look at it as a progression, whereas you see it as almost a completely separate entity. DB always had sci-fi elements and those alone don't merit a completely different score.

Case it point, there's always been a spectrum of serious moments/tension and comedy/gags. As the series progressed, it moved more and more towards the former without completely omitting the latter.

But it's more that sense of tension and stronger emphasis on action and universal threats that DBZ has over DB. DB also had a consistent structure: adventure > tournament > adventure > tournament. DBZ diverted away from this. The scales were higher in every category, and the action was much more intense. The battles were faster-paced and far more over-the-top. This simply can't be argued. By the end of DB, Goku still required the assistance of his flying nimbus. In DBZ, everyone flies at ridiculous speeds, all the battles take place in the sky, there are huge beams at every corner, and flurries of punches and kicks become a norm. It's what the series is KNOWN FOR. Even in the final DB fight against Piccolo, nothing in the original series tops the fights in DBZ.

And yes, there was a greater emphasis on sci-fi. The series starts out with extraterrestrials entering the planet and Piccolo and Goku being revealed to be aliens. Later, we have space and time traveling.

But going back to my original point, I feel these changes warranted a soundtrack change. The "eastern martial arts" theme was basically a non-factor at that point in the story; that's the last thing I think about during the Saiyan-Cell sagas. As a result, it boggles my mind when people say Kikuchi's OST fits with DBZ as a result of it sounding like an old-school martial arts soundtrack. And as I mentioned, if I'm reading a manga with aliens, over-the-top battles, transformations, and planet-busting characters that takes itself seriously, I envision a lot of bombastic music to go along with it, which Kikuchi lacks and Faulconer does not. The series may be more than just action, but that intensity becomes the emphasis of DBZ/the 2nd half. Ultimately, that's what the series is known for. That's why I became a fan of it.

[ABED]

But it's more that sense of tension and stronger emphasis on action and universal threats that DBZ has over DB. DB also had a consistent structure: adventure > tournament > adventure > tournament. DBZ diverted away from this. The scales were higher in every category, and the action was much more intense.

But that's not true, the stakes of the tournaments and the adventures always increased. Piccolo was a big shift, but it wasn't a 180 turn. Plus, the action in DB was very intense. I would argue that few DBZ fights can touch the level of ferocity that Goku vs. Piccolo reach. They beat the hell out of each other. Goku is shot through the chest and coughs up blood. Piccolo destroys his limbs, and rips off his own arm. It's very bloody. Being faster paced (arguable) and over the top doesn't make DBZ's fights better, plus, that was something that built over time. It's not like the end of DB and the beginning of DBZ are completely different in any of these categories. So yes, that can be argued. At the end of DB, Goku had learned to fly. That's how he evaded Piccolo's killing blow before winning the tournament. The show shifts tones and genres quite a bit. Sometimes it's more humorous, sometimes it's an adventure, then it's sci-fi, then it's mystical. That sci-fi element is not enough to require a completely different genre, and it's not that sci-fi. Yeah there are spaceships, but that's really as sci-fi as it gets. The battles and characters are still rooted in wuxia

characters that takes itself seriously

DB also has characters that takes itself serious, and conversely DBZ has Buu and the Ginyu Force.

[fadeddreams5]

But that's not true, the stakes of the tournaments and the adventures always increased. Piccolo was a big shift, but it wasn't a 180 turn. Plus, the action in DB was very intense. I would argue that few DBZ fights can touch the level of ferocity that Goku vs. Piccolo reach. They beat the hell out of each other. Goku is shot through the chest and coughs up blood. Piccolo destroys his limbs, and rips off his own arm. It's very bloody. Being faster paced (arguable) and over the top doesn't make DBZ's fights better, plus, that was something that built over time. It's not like the end of DB and the beginning of DBZ are completely different in any of these categories. So yes, that can be argued. At the end of DB, Goku had learned to fly. That's how he evaded Piccolo's killing blow before winning the tournament. The show shifts tones and genres quite a bit. Sometimes it's more humorous, sometimes it's an adventure, then it's sci-fi, then it's mystical. That sci-fi element is not enough to require a completely different genre, and it's not that sci-fi. Yeah there are spaceships, but that's really as sci-fi as it gets. The battles and characters are still rooted in wuxia

The stakes of the tournaments and adventures increased, but that structure remained consistent. DB is ultimately more known for that sense of adventure--at least until the start of the Piccolo saga, but even then, that ended with a tournament. DBZ diverted away from this; each saga focuses on stronger and stronger otherworldly villains that threaten the universe.

And yeah, Goku learned to fly at the end of DB, but he relied on the flying nimbus for travel, even at the start of DBZ. Things are simply more over-the-top in this series. When I think of DB with Faulconer music, it just doesn't click for me. But I find it works really well in capturing the intensity of the battles. Again, if I were to read DBZ, I'd envision a lot (which is like the majority) of moments with music from Faulconer, Yamamoto, Yasuharu Takanashi, Yusuke Honma, etc. Kikuchi's music simply does not capture the intensity of the action, which again, is on another level, scale, and prominence than it was in most of DB until the the Tien arc, which is still not as chaotic as something like, say, the Kid Buu, Frieza, or Cell vs Goku fight.

The characters and battles may be rooted on wuxia, but a lot of eastern elements present in DB are kind of sidelined in favor of, well, sci-fi. An entire saga takes place in an alien world with villains that use advanced technology. The next saga deals with cyborgs and time travel. Even the martial arts tournament seems heavily commercialized, rather than traditional and conservative, as it was in DB.

DB also has characters that takes itself serious, and conversely DBZ has Buu and the Ginyu Force.

That was bad grammar in my part. I meant the series as a whole takes itself seriously; it's not a parody of anything.

[ABED]

DB is ultimately more known for that sense of adventure--at least until the start of the Piccolo saga, but even then, that ended with a tournament. DBZ diverted away from this; each saga focuses on stronger and stronger otherworldly villains that threaten the universe.

You keep getting hung up on the tournament, but what would happen if Goku lost the tournament and lost to Piccolo? That's right, the world would end.

Tenshinhan arc, which is still not as chaotic as something like, say, the Kid Buu, Freeza, or Cell vs Goku fight.

I'll take the Tenshinhan fight over the Buu fights or even Cell, they aren't nearly as interesting, intense, or compelling.

An entire saga takes place in an alien world with villains that use advanced technology

Aliens that look remarkably like beings you would see on Earth and technology that is also not out of place on Earth.

You've placed a ridiculously arbitrary divider at the Piccolo and Saiyan arc even though they aren't that different in tone. Yes there's a tournament, but the stakes and the level of action aren't any different. Both have battles for the fate of the world.

I don't know why you think any of Faulconer's themes are great for accentuating action. Is it the "rockin" guitars? Or the cheap synth that go great with crazy martial arts action and the weird brightly colored characters? I'm not saying you have to go with Kikuchi, but Faulconer's score doesn't mesh with DBZ.

[Dbzfan94]

Faulconer's score doesn't mesh with DBZ.

You're missing my point and I feel like you're stating your opinion as fact. As I said, just because it sounds different than Kikuchi doesn't make it wrong.
You may not like Faulconer's score but that doesn't mean it ultimately doesnt fit in no way shape or form. There are tons of scenes where it does.

[Soppa Saia People]

Faulconer's score doesn't mesh with DBZ.

You're missing my point and I feel like you're stating your opinion as fact. As I said, just because it sounds different than Kikuchi doesn't make it wrong.
You may not like Faulconer's score but that doesn't mean it ultimately doesnt fit in no way shape or form. There are tons of scenes where it does.

It doesn't mesh with Dragon Ball Z because it gives off the impression the DBZ is "KICK PUNCH EXPLOSION!!!FUCK YEAH! Which it's not.
Anyway back on topic my favorite theme from them is hell bells.

[Dbzfan94]

It doesn't mesh with Dragon Ball Z because it gives off the impression the DBZ is "KICK PUNCH EXPLOSION!!!FUCK YEAH! Which it's not.
Anyway back on topic my favorite theme from them is hell bells.

_{i love how most of the replies in this thread are insults to score despite the tile.}

I've never got that impression, even as a big Faulconer fan, but I guess it's whatever. That's your opinion though. The fights are very high-octane though and the score conveys that, but obviously the show isn't all that and Faulconer's score changes accordingly.

[thaman91]

It doesn't mesh with Dragon Ball Z because it gives off the impression the DBZ is "KICK PUNCH EXPLOSION!!!FUCK YEAH! Which it's not.

Growing up on the dub, I never got this impression at all. One of the things I like about the score is how varied it can be. There are themes that can fit just about any situation and emotion. If there's a sad moment, it can cover that. If there's a character being naive and innocent, it can handle that. If something funny is going on, it can do that too.

While I agree that it can sometimes convey a different tone to what was present in the Japanese version, this doesn't mean that it's always portraying the show as "hardcore" and "badass".

[ABED]

As I said, just because it sounds different than Kikuchi doesn't make it wrong

This isn't about sounding like Kikuchi, though I do think he understands the tone of the show better than the other composers. Faulconer doesn't understand the DB world. Listen to the Bulma and the Frog theme. Bulma isn't an airhead. She can be flighty sometimes, but she's very intelligent and the theme doesn't convey that at all, that's aside from just being annoying to listen to. Then there's just a ton of other cues that are unmemorable. I never felt that way about Kikuchi or even Yamamoto. Aside from on or two cues and the songs that I heard over and over again growing up, the score didn't leave much of a positive impression.

[Dbzfan94]

As I said, just because it sounds different than Kikuchi doesn't make it wrong

This isn't about sounding like Kikuchi, though I do think he understands the tone of the show better than the other composers. Faulconer doesn't understand the DB world. Listen to the Bulma and the Frog theme. Bulma isn't an airhead. She can be flighty sometimes, but she's very intelligent and the theme doesn't convey that at all, that's aside from just being annoying to listen to. Then there's just a ton of other cues that are unmemorable. I never felt that way about Kikuchi or even Yamamoto. Aside from on or two cues and the songs that I heard over and over again growing up, the score didn't leave much of a positive impression.

Bulma and the Frog is pretty crap, but there are multiple other awesome tracks. Picking one dud doesn't mean much. All of the OSTs have duds

[ABED]

I honestly can't think of one Kikuchi dud. The closest is the boing sound in Upa's theme.

The dub has plenty of duds such as the Eldest Namekian theme and the psycho clown music.

There is one theme i enjoy, i think it's the Vegeta theme, it's the one that plays on the Cell dvd singles.