Super Saiyan Vegeta (Cell games) - 24,000,000,000Darkron2151 wrote:How strong do you guys have:
The main problem is that Piccolo Daimao (young) is not stronger than Tenshinhan (23rd Budokai). And have Goku/Tenshinhan (22nd budokai) above Yamcha (23rd Budokai) is laughable.Zombie wrote:This is a nice way to explain the problem some people have with the official numbers.dbgtFO wrote:Perhaps Piccolo considers his full power the highest ki he can gather(ie. a big ki blast), so by using Daizenshuu numbers for demonstration, we get this:SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:For me, the main problem is Daimao saying he used less than half of his power against Goku. I'd have to pretty much ignore that line or assume he was lying to have everything fit.
Goku: 180.
-Power-up: 260.
Demon King Piccolo: 200.
-Full Power: 220.
--Bakurikimaha: 440.
-Young: 240.
--Full Power: 260.
---Bakurikimaha: 520.
Thus Piccolo was not even using ½ his power in his first encounter against Goku.
Where do you have Piccolo?SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Super Saiyan Vegeta (Cell games) - 24,000,000,000Darkron2151 wrote:How strong do you guys have:
Super Saiyan Goku (Cell Games) - 36,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Gohan (Cell Games) - 54,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goten (Pre/Post ROSAT) - 36,000,000,000 -> 50,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks (Pre/Post ROSAT) - 37,500,000,000 -> 50,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Vegeta (Pre Majin) - 48,000,000,000
Super Saiyan Goku (Buu Arc) - 60,000,000,000
[Super Saiyan Vegeta (Cell games): 1,500,000,000Darkron2151 wrote:How strong do you guys have:
- Super Saiyan Vegeta (Cell games)
Super Saiyan Goku (Cell Games)
Super Saiyan Gohan (Cell Games)
Super Saiyan Goten (Pre/Post ROSAT)
Super Saiyan Kid Trunks (Pre/Post ROSAT)
Super Saiyan Vegeta (Pre Majin)
Super Saiyan Goku (Buu Arc)
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
If you have a problem with that, just assume Tenshinhan was wearing weighted clothes when he was read from far away at the beginning of Z, and that his power level is actually 290 or 300. As it stands, saying that he MUST be above Daimao based on him not being much weaker than weighted Goku (Goku was stronger, but Ten wasn't totally helpless and could win with superior speed), then just making him much weaker than weighted Goku anyway, is silly.ahill1 wrote: The main problem is that Piccolo Daimao (young) is not stronger than Tenshinhan (23rd Budokai).
BOZ Yamcha is stronger than 23rd Budokai Yamcha and only moderately superior to Roshi. Roshi had not been training since the 22nd Budokai. There's not a lot of room between "greater than 139" [22nd Budokai Goku] and "less than 177" [23rd Budokai Yamcha], so it's not a big deal if one of them happens to be a few points higher than the other.And have Goku/Tenshinhan (22nd budokai) above Yamcha (23rd Budokai) is laughable.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Darkron2151 wrote:How strong do you guys have:
I can't take it; There is no indication that Tenshinhan was suppressed; would be silly AT show a fake power for Tenshinhan; If AT showed 250, is 250. Besides Tenshinhan was implied to be far weaker than Goku and Piccolo.RandomGuy96 wrote:If you have a problem with that, just assume Tenshinhan was wearing weighted clothes when he was read from far away at the beginning of Z, and that his power level is actually 290 or 300. As it stands, saying that he MUST be above Daimao based on him not being much weaker than weighted Goku (Goku was stronger, but Ten wasn't totally helpless and could win with superior speed), then just making him much weaker than weighted Goku anyway, is silly.ahill1 wrote: The main problem is that Piccolo Daimao (young) is not stronger than Tenshinhan (23rd Budokai).
BOZ Yamcha is stronger than 23rd Budokai Yamcha and only moderately superior to Roshi. Roshi had not been training since the 22nd Budokai. There's not a lot of room between "greater than 139" [22nd Budokai Goku] and "less than 177" [23rd Budokai Yamcha], so it's not a big deal if one of them happens to be a few points higher than the other.And have Goku/Tenshinhan (22nd budokai) above Yamcha (23rd Budokai) is laughable.
Here Tenshinhan says that Goku is much stronger than 3 years ago; and if Tenshinhan was even weaker than Goku in strength, it would be for a minimum difference. So Tenshinhan > Piccolo Daimao (young) is 100% right. Piccolo Daimao ( Young ) must be less than 250.Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”
I've said it to you; Tenshinhan and Goku ( Weighted ) are stated to be a match several times. Kame Sen'nin only brings up the difference in breathing since Goku learned to fight without making unnecessary movements. But in Power wise they are pretty equal.Zombie wrote:Master Roshi himself said they were not equal.
Buu Arc (Pre Ultimate) - 720,000,000Darkron2151 wrote:What level do you all have Gohan in:
- Buu Arc (Pre Ultimate)
Buu Arc (Post Ultimate)
BOG Arc (Super)
RoF
Darkron2151 wrote:What level do you all have Gohan in:
If his power is 250, then it makes no sense relative to weighted Goku's 250. Simple as that. Or Roshi's 139, but that's unavoidable.ahill1 wrote:I can't take it; There is no indication that Tenshinhan was suppressed; would be silly AT show a fake power for Tenshinhan; If AT showed 250, is 250. Besides Tenshinhan was implied to be far weaker than Goku and Piccolo.RandomGuy96 wrote:If you have a problem with that, just assume Tenshinhan was wearing weighted clothes when he was read from far away at the beginning of Z, and that his power level is actually 290 or 300. As it stands, saying that he MUST be above Daimao based on him not being much weaker than weighted Goku (Goku was stronger, but Ten wasn't totally helpless and could win with superior speed), then just making him much weaker than weighted Goku anyway, is silly.ahill1 wrote: The main problem is that Piccolo Daimao (young) is not stronger than Tenshinhan (23rd Budokai).
BOZ Yamcha is stronger than 23rd Budokai Yamcha and only moderately superior to Roshi. Roshi had not been training since the 22nd Budokai. There's not a lot of room between "greater than 139" [22nd Budokai Goku] and "less than 177" [23rd Budokai Yamcha], so it's not a big deal if one of them happens to be a few points higher than the other.And have Goku/Tenshinhan (22nd budokai) above Yamcha (23rd Budokai) is laughable.
And Tenshinhan was not weaker than Goku( Weighted ) - It was not shown anywhere. I have the manga in hand and they fought evenly.
Here Tenshinhan says that Goku is much stronger than 3 years ago; and if Tenshinhan was even weaker than Goku in strength, it would be for a minimum difference. So Tenshinhan > Piccolo Daimao (young) is 100% right. Piccolo Daimao ( Young ) must be less than 250.Chapter: 177, P1.2-4, P2.1
Tenshinhan: “Son, you are truly incredible. 3 years ago, your strength was all but perfect. I’m amazed that you’ve managed to go so far above even that. However, there’s one thing that you haven’t changed that much from 3 years ago. And that’s something especially important in battle…speed!”
Yamcha and Kuririn are indeed stronger than Goku and Tenshinhan(22nd Budokai). Both Yamcha as Krillin could follow the movements of Goku (with weights) and Tenshinhan. Kuririn(23rd Budokai) >= Yamcha(23rd Budokai) >>>>> Goku(22nd Budokai) >= Tenshinhan(22nd Budokai).
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Those are the numbers given. I'm saying that, if you'd like them to fit, it's easy to just assume that Ten's 250 was a slightly suppressed level, which would then match with Goku's 334 number. Therefore, there is no problem with the official numbers that is not already a problem with the manga numbers. Therefore, your point that the guidebook number for Piccolo being "wrong" is bogus.ahill1 wrote:This occurs when you give more value to the numbers than what history shows. The numbers of Toriyama don't reflect what is shown in the tournament. Obviously Goku (Weighted) would have to be much closer to Tenshinhan. In addition, 23rd Budokai suggests that there is a huge difference between Goku (weighted) and Goku (w/o weights), but Toriyama numbers don't show it. If you want to give more value to numbers that the story feel free, but will you be factually wrong.
Which was my whole point. Have you been paying attention?if you apply Dragonball logic you have Tenshinhan's 250 at much too high a disadvantage to Goku's weighted 330-ish level, even though at this stage, their physical aptitudes weren't shown to be that far apart, and though irrelevant to their actual powers in this case, Ten was much faster.
I read the fight. Goku dominated early on; he blocks all of Ten's blows without an expression that indicates effort, while Tenshinhan is baring his teeth and sweating, lands the only actual blow in the warm-up, and by the end of the warm-up Ten is huffing and puffing while Goku is fine. Sometimes he has a neutral look, while other times he's smiling and clearly taking Ten's strength lightly. This is particularly easy to see in their grapple. Your theory that Goku was only superior in skill doesn't actually match what is shown.Not, their fight did not show Goku being stronger... Did you not read the fight? They were pretty evenly, maybe Goku had a slight advantage. Once again Muten Roshi only brings up the difference in breathing , the cause is that the Goku has learned to fight without making unnecessary movements. That was part of Kami's training, at no time Roshi said that there was a difference in strength. Don't jump to conclusions.
Toriyama specifically notes the audience being able to follow their movements by having scenes take place that would be impossible if they couldn't. Audience members > Freeza. It's laughable to suggest otherwise.Means much Sir, this means that Yamcha and Krillin are less than 1.5 x weaker than Goku (Weighted)/Tenshinhan... There is a brutal difference in the examples you brought ... the audience being able to accompany the movements was neither something of note by Toriyama, while the fact that Yamcha and Krillin can accompany the movements was something of note, so much so that Chi Chi is surprised with the fact that the two can follow the movements of Goku and Tenshinhan Shinhan. You have to ask yourself what the author's intention in the cases: what the intention of Toriyama to show that the audience could follow the movements? Just to save his time and effort. But which intend to show that Krillin and Yamcha would accompany Goku and Tenshinhan? Demonstrate that these are not far weaker, since it was something worthy of note by Chi Chi.
Pretty ironic coming from someone who can't grasp such a basic point.I think it's better not to continue this discussion. You don't have basic reading skills.
The Monkey King wrote:It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWokeRandomGuy96 wrote:He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
"Following movements is inconsistent in the Boo saga, so I can apply that to the 23rd TB also despite the consistency then."RandomGuy96 wrote:Toriyama specifically notes the audience being able to follow their movements by having scenes take place that would be impossible if they couldn't. Audience members > Freeza. It's laughable to suggest otherwise.
Once again, I'm not going to take it. Would be silly AT give us a fake number for Tenshinhan; If he gave 250, then Tenshinhan has 250. But it's still a bad number, as Goku and Tenshinhan showed strength on par on the 23rd Budokai. My problem is that Piccolo Daimao cannot be 260, since Tenshinhan is stronger than him.Those are the numbers given. I'm saying that, if you'd like them to fit, it's easy to just assume that Ten's 250 was a slightly suppressed level, which would then match with Goku's 334 number. Therefore, there is no problem with the official numbers that is not already a problem with the manga numbers. Therefore, your point that the guidebook number for Piccolo being "wrong" is bogus.
You ignored my arguments. Why Goku showed no effort? Because Goku had more power than he had shown. The power he used against Tenshinhan was only a small part of its maximum power. Unlike Tenshinhan, who was giving his maximum at that time. Why Tenshinhan was breathless and Goku didn't? Because Goku learn to fight without making unnecessary movements, it was part of the training of Kami. But in power wise, Tenshinhan and Goku were almost the same, as noted by Krillin.I read the fight. Goku dominated early on; he blocks all of Ten's blows without an expression that indicates effort, while Tenshinhan is baring his teeth and sweating, lands the only actual blow in the warm-up, and by the end of the warm-up Ten is huffing and puffing while Goku is fine. Sometimes he has a neutral look, while other times he's smiling and clearly taking Ten's strength lightly. This is particularly easy to see in their grapple. Your theory that Goku was only superior in skill doesn't actually match what is shown.
