Rationalizing forgotten attacks

[Hitiro]

Mafuba
This should be a no-brainer, can't defeat the opponent, seal them! However, it was never used again past the 23rd TB. My theory, the problem isn't in the technique but in the container. The enemies got so powerful, that the containers wouldn't be able to hold them.

I always thought this technique was developed specifically for Piccolo and his kind which is why it was never used because they never had to seal away any other Namekian's.

[LightBing]

I can't exactly remember the context of when the Dodonpa was said to be stronger than the Kamehameha, but I always just assumed that was just big talk by the Crane School.

Master Roshi was the one who said it. I guess Dodonpa is a better attack to spam, has piercing capabilities and burns. Kamehameha is better if charged, probably.

[rereboy]

Mafuba
This should be a no-brainer, can't defeat the opponent, seal them! However, it was never used again past the 23rd TB. My theory, the problem isn't in the technique but in the container. The enemies got so powerful, that the containers wouldn't be able to hold them.

I always thought this technique was developed specifically for Piccolo and his kind which is why it was never used because they never had to seal away any other Namekian's.

Assuming that is true, then the technique would have been created for demons, hence it's name, Mafuba. Not exactly for Namekians.

[DanielSSJ]

Mafuba
This should be a no-brainer, can't defeat the opponent, seal them! However, it was never used again past the 23rd TB. My theory, the problem isn't in the technique but in the container. The enemies got so powerful, that the containers wouldn't be able to hold them.

Only works on demons(or evil Namekians, I guess.) and it kills the user. Then again, it might work on Dabura or Majin Boo. They have a demon theme going on.

Dodonpa
It's basically a kamehameha but better. We can assume all of Master Roshi students choose not to try to learn it, because of it's creator and out of respect for their master. Still kinda weird that such a useful technique was forgotten.

The Turtle students would never use it over their beloved Kamehameha. Piccolo and Vegeta would never use it because its an "inferior human technique. Masenko and Galick Gun FTW!"

Bankoku Bikkuri Shō
You know, the electric like attack Jackie Chun used against Goku in the 21st TB. He called it his most lethal attack, stronger than the Kamehameha. This would be useful in the many battles. Most likely he chose not to teach them.

Toriyama forgot about it.

Shiyōken
Grow two extra arms! This one is weird, it was introduced to be quickly countered. In a way that doesn't seem right, just because one is faster doesn't make having two extra arms redundant. Hum...

Only Tenshinhan could use it due to his unique biology...I think...

[TripleRach]

Assuming that is true, then the technique would have been created for demons, hence it's name, Mafuba. Not exactly for Namekians.

IIRC, the denshi jars are always labeled "Daimaou Fuuji" (Sealing Daimaou), so it may only affect people who specifically have the daimaou status. Considering what we know now about "god ki," and what we knew then about demons disrupting souls' passage to the afterlife, it seems plausible that a daimaou could have unique properties.

[LightBing]

It just makes it more impressive, how Mutaito was able to create a technique with such unique properties.

I just remember another one. Foot-Kamehameha, it could have so many uses in combat, what a shame.

[Hitiro]

Mafuba
This should be a no-brainer, can't defeat the opponent, seal them! However, it was never used again past the 23rd TB. My theory, the problem isn't in the technique but in the container. The enemies got so powerful, that the containers wouldn't be able to hold them.

I always thought this technique was developed specifically for Piccolo and his kind which is why it was never used because they never had to seal away any other Namekian's.

Assuming that is true, then the technique would have been created for demons, hence it's name, Mafuba. Not exactly for Namekians.

Well, a name is only a name. They perceived Piccolo to be some sort of demon, even Piccolo himself did. None of them knew they were Namekian's. So it is highly possible this technique was for demon's which were actually Namekians. If you know what I'm saying.

[rereboy]

Well, a name is only a name. They perceived Piccolo to be some sort of demon, even Piccolo himself did. None of them knew they were Namekian's. So it is highly possible this technique was for demon's which were actually Namekians. If you know what I'm saying.

Not really. I see no reason for the name to be random since Piccolo was an actual demon. What you are saying is the same as saying that if a Saiyan managed to somehow become a demon like Piccolo was, and someone used a technique to seal him named Mafuba, him being a demon would actually be irrelevant since the technique would actually be designed to seal Saiyans. I see no reason for such an assumption.

[Saiga]

Well, a name is only a name. They perceived Piccolo to be some sort of demon, even Piccolo himself did. None of them knew they were Namekian's. So it is highly possible this technique was for demon's which were actually Namekians. If you know what I'm saying.

Not really. I see no reason for the name to be random since Piccolo was an actual demon. What you are saying is the same as saying that if a Saiyan managed to somehow become a demon like Piccolo was, and someone used a technique to seal him named Mafuba, him being a demon would actually be irrelevant since the technique would actually be designed to seal Saiyans. I see no reason for such an assumption.

I see no reason to assume it would work on other demons, either. Because the person who created the technique didn't have full information on the enemy they intended to seal, so who knows if they would base it on the correct (demon) properties of the target?

[rereboy]

I see no reason to assume it would work on other demons, either. Because the person who created the technique didn't have full information on the enemy they intended to seal, so who knows if they would base it on the correct (demon) properties of the target?

No reason to assume it even though Piccolo is literally a demon and the technique is "Mafuba"? Seems like a reason to me. I don't know if the technique would actually work on other demons, nor did I state that it would definitely work since there could be a lot of reasons for it to not succeed, but there's obvious reasons to assume that the technique was created as something to seal demons. However, there's no reason to assume it was created to work on Namekians. Dragon Ball is 99% of the time pretty straightforward.

[Sandubadear]

There's a what-if game that Piccolo uses the Mafuba on Super Buu, so I guess it works on other demons as well.

[Gabool The Wild]

I wish Vegeta would use the Galick-Ho more often. Probably my favorite move in the series.

[Cipher]

The Mafuba both 1) seems to work only against demons or purely evil beings, and 2) is capable of being countered by Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, so there you go. Someone with Boo's bizarre properties and massive ki would probably be capable of countering it as well.

The Dodonpa is a standard finger beam technique -- I'm not sure how useful it'd be over any other technique as battles get more frenetic and ki-based. Goku's able to toss Freeza's aside in the Namek arc. Cell, who can use Freeza's variation, also seems to go to Kamehame-has and other techniques with a wider blast radius for finishing moves, so it doesn't appear to be greatly advantageous over other beams.

The Bankoku Bikkuri Sho (in addition to being a gag technique) probably just doesn't have the power to keep up with cosmically strong characters, as it appears to channel electricity in some bizarre way rather than ki.

Goku proves early on that the shiyoken just gets in the way compared to a more agile fighting technique, and it takes a great deal of ki. Most techniques that encumber the body in anyway are countered pretty immediately in the series. Simpler, faster, more controlled win out.

Well, a name is only a name. They perceived Piccolo to be some sort of demon, even Piccolo himself did. None of them knew they were Namekian's. So it is highly possible this technique was for demon's which were actually Namekians. If you know what I'm saying.

Piccolo is a demon. That label was never based on his appearance.

[LightBing]

I wish Vegeta would use the Galick-Ho more often. Probably my favorite move in the series.

Yeah, it should have been his Kamehameha. Although the final flash is my favorite attack from him.

The Mafuba both 1) seems to work only against demons or purely evil beings, and 2) is capable of being countered by Piccolo in the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai, so there you go. Someone with Boo's bizarre properties and massive ki would probably be capable of countering it as well.

The Dodonpa is a standard finger beam technique -- I'm not sure how useful it'd be over any other technique as battles get more frenetic and ki-based. Goku's able to toss Freeza's aside in the Namek arc. Cell, who can use Freeza's variation, also seems to go to Kamehame-has and other techniques with a wider blast radius for finishing moves, so it doesn't appear to be greatly advantageous over other beams.

The Bankoku Bikkuri Sho (in addition to being a gag technique) probably just doesn't have the power to keep up with cosmically strong characters, as it appears to channel electricity in some bizarre way rather than ki.

Goku proves early on that the shiyoken just gets in the way compared to a more agile fighting technique, and it takes a great deal of ki. Most techniques that encumber the body in anyway are countered pretty immediately in the series. Simpler, faster, more controlled win out.

The dodonpa isn't a standard attack, I wouldn't put it in the same category as Freeza's attack. While they seem to share the piercing characteristic, the dodonpa seems to be a heated attack(Goku burned his hands) and pack much more power.

How is the Bankoku Bikkuri Sho a gag technique?It's Master Roshi ultimate technique, he said before using against Goku that only Gohan had forced him to use it. Hadn't Goku turned Oozaru he would've lost right there.

[Darkprince410]

I can't exactly remember the context of when the Dodonpa was said to be stronger than the Kamehameha, but I always just assumed that was just big talk by the Crane School.

Master Roshi was the one who said it. I guess Dodonpa is a better attack to spam, has piercing capabilities and burns. Kamehameha is better if charged, probably.

The way Roshi compared the two leaves it open as to which is actually stronger.

Kame-sennin: “It’s no use!! A hastily thrown together Kamehameha can’t win against a Dodonpa!!

It was Kuririn's first time ever really attempting to use it, so his statement could simply be a matter of an unrefined, untested attempt at a Kamehameha isn't a match for a Dodonpa, not that the Dodonpa is always going to be better than the Kamehameha.

[Cipher]

The dodonpa isn't a standard attack, I wouldn't put it in the same category as Freeza's attack. While they seem to share the piercing characteristic, the dodonpa seems to be a heated attack(Goku burned his hands) and pack much more power.

Many other ki attacks are shown to burn opponents unable to fully reflect them. It's inconsistent, but it isn't unique to the Dodonpa.

How is the Bankoku Bikkuri Sho a gag technique?It's Master Roshi ultimate technique, he said before using against Goku that only Gohan had forced him to use it. Hadn't Goku turned Oozaru he would've lost right there.

Its name is a pun, fitting in with just about every technique in the fight. Either way, yes, it's apparently strong enough to stop post-Kame Sennin-training Goku, but we have no idea if such an unconventional attack would scale with the fighters becoming more and more adept at using their ki.

[Hitiro]

Well, a name is only a name. They perceived Piccolo to be some sort of demon, even Piccolo himself did. None of them knew they were Namekian's. So it is highly possible this technique was for demon's which were actually Namekians. If you know what I'm saying.

Not really. I see no reason for the name to be random since Piccolo was an actual demon. What you are saying is the same as saying that if a Saiyan managed to somehow become a demon like Piccolo was, and someone used a technique to seal him named Mafuba, him being a demon would actually be irrelevant since the technique would actually be designed to seal Saiyans. I see no reason for such an assumption.

But Piccolo wasn't actually a demon. He was just named as such. Thus the technique should only really effect what the definition of a Demon was at the time. In this case Namekians. What I'm saying is that this technique was specifically developed to catch beings like Piccolo which people referred to as demons. So therefore the only beings that would be effected by this technique are Namekians. Essentially this technique should be called Namekian-fuba now seeing as they know that Piccolo is not a Demon any more. There is nothing stopping characters from developing their own Ki based techniques to trap other races now or even trapping actual demons.

I see no reason why this technique, specifically developed to seal beings(Namekians) like Piccolo, would work on other beings. It's like saying this technique should work on any race because any race could be classed as a demon by another race who knows nothing about them. If it was so broad then I guess this technique works on Humans too? There can't be some catch-clause in the technique somewhere that specifically targets beings who are labeled as demons. Furthermore how is this technique supposed to seal beings it has never been developed for without a basis for entrapment? Bow if this technique was just based on how Evil an individual is then I guess it is more understandable but that would still be an incredibly generalized category that would work on any race. This technique is either incredibly generalized and will target anybody it is used on or incredibly specific such as racial. It can't really have a middle ground without the person developing it having an in-depth knowledge of what race/people or should not be classed as a demon.

[rereboy]

But Piccolo wasn't actually a demon.

Sorry but you are just wrong about that. It's confirmed multiple times in the manga that he is indeed a demon, to the point that Kami himself, the god of Earth, is surprised when Piccolo ceases to be a demon due to him ceasing to be pure evil, which allows the people that Piccolo kills (like Raditz) to advance to the afterlife instead of just being stuck in limbo. Read the chapter of the manga where Kami discusses this with Mr. Popo just after the Radditz/Goku/Piccolo fight if you want confirmation. And this is also confirmed multiple times in supplemental material.

[Hitiro]

But Piccolo wasn't actually a demon.

Sorry but you are just wrong about that. It's confirmed multiple times in the manga that he is indeed a demon, to the point that Kami himself, the god of Earth, is surprised when Piccolo ceases to be a demon due to him ceasing to be pure evil, which allows the people that Piccolo kills (like Raditz) to advance to the afterlife instead of just being stuck in limbo. Read the chapter of the manga where Kami discusses this with Mr. Popo just after the Radditz/Goku/Piccolo fight if you want confirmation. And this is also confirmed multiple times in supplemental material.

Incorrect because in the manga we get a re-clarification that Piccolo and Kami were Namekians that simply lost knowledge of what they were. So no. He isn't a demon. He, and others, call him a demon out of convenience because they don't know what he actually is. Your race doesn't simply change just because you cease being evil. While Piccolo had properties that prevented people from going to the afterlife that doesn't necessarily mean he is a demon. Just that because he is evil the people he killed ended up that way. For all we know that is the case for all pure evil Namekians. It might be a trait they share with Demons. He is the first of his kind to be like that. Kami can hardly talk about Piccolo being a demon when he, himself, didn't know he was a Namekian.

Even if we assume you are right there is no way for Mutaito to know that there are other types of demons. He probably thought that all demon's were like Piccolo. There is no guarantee that the Mafuba would work on a Namekian-born Demon the same as a Demon like Dabura. Because they would be two different types. Like how a Saiyan's Ki is different from a SSJ's Ki. Piccolo presented a Ki that was, by the characters definition, a demonic Ki. Mutaito could have made his Mafuba technique trap creatures who presented the same discernible Ki. In comparison I don't think Dabura's demonic Ki would be the same type of Ki as a demon born of a Namekian. While it is possible that the technique covers some demonic types of Ki, for instance, there is literally no guarantee this technique actually extends past "Demonic" Namekians. Unless Mutaito had a vast knowledge of all demons and could make the technique accommodate them all.

[rereboy]

Incorrect because in the manga we get a re-clarification that Piccolo and Kami were Namekians that simply lost knowledge of what they were. So no. He isn't a demon.

Like Herms said, better than I could, in http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 7&p=800421:

Something I see on a fairly regular basis is people saying that Piccolo wasn’t ever really a demon, he just got labeled as one because at the time none of the characters knew he was Namekian. This is incorrect. Or at least, not based on anything said in the actual series. It’s probably high time I make a thread giving a proper run-down of the matter.

A brief overview: first we meet Piccolo. He’s said to be a demon, a king of demons in fact, leader of the Demon Clan. A bit later we learn that Piccolo was born from all the evil that was in the heart of the dude who eventually became God of Earth; he had to kick that evil out to become God, and it formed into an evil doppelganger of himself. When the Saiyan arc rolls around, Vegeta and Nappa identify Piccolo as a Namekian. It turns out, the dude who became God of Earth originally came from Planet Namek, making his evil twin likewise Namekian.

So, first we’re told Piccolo is a demon. Later we’re told he’s a Namekian. This leads many people to say that Piccolo never really was a demon; he was just an ordinary Namekian all along. But nothing like this is ever stated in the series, and there’s no real reason it would have to be true. It’s a bit like saying that since we first learn Goku was raised by Grandpa Gohan, and later learn he’s a Saiyan, then Goku must have never been raised by Gohan. Piccolo’s actual origin never changes, after all: he was born from the evil in the heart of the dude who became God. He’s literally made out of evil. Saying “he’s no demon, he’s just a guy made out of evil” sounds a bit silly.

Let’s repeat that for emphasis: Piccolo is evil given physical form.

…Or at least that’s where he starts out, before getting reborn and merging with people left and right. He really is quite a bit like Boo. Once he starts being a nice guy, or at least not quite so super-evil, then we’re told that he’s “no longer the demon king of old”. By the time he re-merges with God in the Cell arc, he confidently declares that he’s no longer the demon king Piccolo, and in the anime version of the Boo arc Kuririn describes Piccolo as having “previously” been part of the Demon Clan. So it’s clear that he eventually stops being a demon, and it’s a little fuzzy exactly when the switch occurs, but the starting point is never in doubt. Piccolo was made out of evil.

Anyway, the character whose origin does get changed (or expanded on at least) is the God of Earth, aka the child of Katatz. He turns out to be from Namek, rather than Earth as was previously assumed. But what planet he’s from really shouldn’t have any impact on whether or not his evil twin counts as a demon; as we’ve seen, Piccolo is called a demon because he’s made out of evil. Imagine if, instead of an evil doppelganger, the child of Katatz created a robot duplicate of himself. When it turns out Katatz Jr. came from Namek rather than Earth, it wouldn’t make much sense to say that his duplicate must therefore not really be a robot.

Oh yeah, that’s another thing: everyone assumed Katatz Jr. was an Earthling, a “gifted martial artist” as he described himself. Nobody ever considered him to be a demon, as far as we see. Well, nobody except Goku, who mistakes him for Piccolo when they first meet. But apart from that, there’s nothing to suggest that stupid Earthlings considered Katatz Jr. to be a demon because of his Namekian features. Piccolo was the only one to get that label, and even Katatz Jr. himself thought of Piccolo as a demon. The common fan idea that Earth folks just mistook Piccolo for a demon because they’d never seen a Namekian before is at odds with the series.

So if it doesn’t come from the series, where does the idea that Piccolo was never really a demon come from? Well, for one thing, “so-called demon turns out to be an alien” is a stock sci-fi plot. Doctor Who abuses the hell out of it, to the point where they actually have an alien race called the Daemons, who hail from Planet Demos. The show can just drop in passing references to the Doctor defeating a “demon who came down from the sky”, without having to bother explaining that this was actually a space alien. Since it’s such a cliché, people are primed to assume that that’s what’s going on in DB, once they learn there’s a character described as both a demon and an alien. Ultimately though fantasy and sci-fi elements aren’t so sharply divided in DB. This is a series where when aliens die they go to the afterlife to be judged by a god straight out of Buddhist mythology, where a wizard travels to Earth in his spaceship, and where the titular wish-granting balls are created through alien sorcery. Having a character be both a demon and an alien is just what the series does.

The other big factor is probably the way Z continues to overshadow the earlier parts of the series. Piccolo’s origin and his relationship with the God of Earth are introduced and fully explained in the lead-up to the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. There are a few recap explanations, more so in the anime, but they’re easier to miss or overlook compared to when these things form the backbone of the current storyline. Most fans these days still don’t get much exposure to anything from before when Raditz shows up, and tend to think of Piccolo as just Goku’s green rival. They may notice that he gets called a demon king, but they probably won’t know the full details on why, and when they reach the scene where Nappa and Vegeta identify him as a Namekian, they’ll assume that’s the whole story.

But, for the English-speaking fandom, perhaps the most important factor is the way the Funi dub tries to gloss over the idea of Piccolo being a demon as much as possible, due to their tendency to minimize religious references in the series. So instead of “demon king Piccolo”, they just call him “King Piccolo”. He’s sealed away not with the Demon Containment Wave, but rather the Evil Containment Wave. He doesn’t kill Raditz with the Demon Drill Beam Cannon, but instead the Special Beam Cannon. The name of the technique he teaches Gohan, Masenko (Demon Flash), they leave untranslated and unexplained. Overall, references to Piccolo as a demon in the Funi DB and DBZ dubs are thin on the ground from what I’ve seen, though I don’t know if Kai does better. It’s natural that people would have trouble accepting the idea that Piccolo’s an actual demon if they’re most familiar with a version of the franchise that generally doesn’t treat him as such. And from my (admittedly limited) experience, Japanese fans don’t seem to have this “Piccolo was never really a demon” idea; it seems to be mostly an English fandom phenomenon.

So, in conclusion…I don’t know. More fans should embrace the idea of Piccolo being both a demon and Namekian. Like Calvin said about the Tyrannosaurus Rex as predator, “he’s so much cooler that way”.

I will just add that Piccolo being a Namekian fails to explain why his victims didn't go the afterlife when he was pure evil, but started to go once he ceased to be pure evil. That is exclusively explained in the manga (and outside of it) as a demonic trait that Piccolo loses once he ceases to be pure evil, not as a Namekian trait.

Unlike what you are saying, a character can be more than just one thing, can have more than one classification, and just because a later classification is added to the character, it doesn't mean that the previous ones are incorrect. The basis of what you are saying boils down simply to arguing that one character can't have more than one classification, that Piccolo, just because he is a Namekian, automatically can't be a demon, which simply doesn't make sense since there's nothing in the series saying that a Namekian can't become or be a demon, no one ever states that Piccolo actually wasn't a demon, and it's explicitly confirmed that Piccolo was a demon and had exclusive demonic traits in both the manga and outside of it.

To give you another example, if a Saiyan didn't know he was a Saiyan, and then somehow became a demon, and only later found out that he was a Saiyan, according to you he actually never was a demon (even though being a Saiyan didn't explain his demonic traits, and even though it was never stated that just because he was a Saiyan what was mentioned about him being a demon was incorrect). This logic is obviously flawed.