Yes. I know.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The chapter 5 of the Super manga confirms that Super Saiyan Blue is a form beyond Super Saiyan God, meaning that it's the strongest form.
Even BoG states & shows that Goku barely lost any power.Hitiro wrote:The current standing of DBS suggests Goku didn't lose any power when he lost SSJG. So would that not suggest SSJGSSJ is superior now?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Right, but he still lost power. So people can just say that SSJGSSJ = SSJG. If he is equal to SSJG like in DBS he must be stronger than SSJG with SSJGSSJ. Frankly I never believed that he wasn't stronger as a SSJGSSJ. I've already said he can be stronger and we can still have Freeza in the realm of not being able to stand a chance against Beerus.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Even BoG states & shows that Goku barely lost any power.Hitiro wrote:The current standing of DBS suggests Goku didn't lose any power when he lost SSJG. So would that not suggest SSJGSSJ is superior now?
The decrease was insignificant, to the point that SSG wasn't even needed, so that would make SSB useless as well. Or rather, it would be pointless to exist, since Goku can transform into a SSG on his own. Personally, I can't make any sense of SSG = SSB, and I don't understand why people want so much to stick to it when everything points otherwise.Hitiro wrote:Right, but he still lost power. So people can just say that SSJGSSJ = SSJG. If he is equal to SSJG like in DBS he must be stronger than SSJG with SSJGSSJ. Frankly I never believed that he wasn't stronger as a SSJGSSJ. I've already said he can be stronger and we can still have Freeza in the realm of not being able to stand a chance against Beerus.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Even BoG states & shows that Goku barely lost any power.Hitiro wrote:The current standing of DBS suggests Goku didn't lose any power when he lost SSJG. So would that not suggest SSJGSSJ is superior now?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
To be fair the line said was that his power didn't decrease that much. That doesn't mean it was insignificant. In terms of the battle against Beerus the decrease wouldn't have mattered because Beerus was already overwhelmingly stronger than him. If Goku was a 6 and he decreased to a 5 after he lost the form that isn't going to be significant in a battle with someone who is a 10 because the person who has a 10 is already vastly stronger than him. But if Goku was in a battle with an opponent who is a 7 then obviously a decrease by 1 is going to be significant because he isn't going to be able to put up a fight against an opponent he was pretty close in power with before.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The decrease was insignificant, to the point that SSG wasn't even needed, so that would make SSB useless as well. Or rather, it would be pointless to exist, since Goku can transform into a SSG on his own. Personally, I can't make any sense of SSG = SSB, and I don't understand why people want so much to stick to it when everything points otherwise.
How would that work? If SSG Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, then SSB Goku would be 300.Whis wrote:I like to think blue is 50 times stronger than red.
Oh sorry I forgot about that, I was just thinking about how it was stated in R of F that ssb is actually ssg + ssj.Doctor. wrote:How would that work? If SSG Goku is a 6, Beerus is a 10, then SSB Goku would be 300.Whis wrote:I like to think blue is 50 times stronger than red.
In my case it isn't about wanting to stick to it. I acknowledge that SSBlue is stronger than SSG in all the relevant media, like Super manga and in future Super episodes, just like I acknowledged the anime logic about Goku & Vegeta(pre SSG) > everyone not named Beerus or Whis.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The decrease was insignificant, to the point that SSG wasn't even needed, so that would make SSB useless as well. Or rather, it would be pointless to exist, since Goku can transform into a SSG on his own. Personally, I can't make any sense of SSG = SSB, and I don't understand why people want so much to stick to it when everything points otherwise.
Nope, that was not stated.Whis wrote:Oh sorry I forgot about that, I was just thinking about how it was stated in R of F that ssb is actually ssg + ssj.
Goku wrote:Hehehe…Actually, this here’s a bit different. It’s tough to explain, but I’m a Super Saiyan who’s a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.
But why assume that Toriyama intended it to be as strong as God? There is nothing saying that.dbgtFO wrote:In my case it isn't about wanting to stick to it. I acknowledge that SSBlue is stronger than SSG in all the relevant media, like Super manga and in future Super episodes, just like I acknowledged the anime logic about Goku & Vegeta(pre SSG) > everyone not named Beerus or Whis.
RoF by all means does not seem to fall in line with the logic that SSG < SSB, and its entire script is written by Toriyama himself, thus I have to question, if all the other material is actually following Toriyama's original intent in regards to SSB's strength in relation to SSG's, or if it's completely disregarding, because it's even more dumbed down Shonen logic, than Toriyama's DB(ie. "new form is strongest form!!" just like "new Buu(Pure Buu) is strongest Buu!!").
The problem here is that Toriyama stated that Goku doesn't need to transform into a Super Saiyan God anymore because he has absorbed its power. He says that we will understand this after watching the movie, BoG, so he isn't talking about him not needing it because he now has Super Saiyan Blue.From an in-universe perspective I don't see the problem in SSG=SSB.
In BoG Goku could only reach SSG through ritual or hearing his family and friends cry out for him at the end of the battle. He may have absorbed its power, but his base state was getting owned by Beerus, he then turned Super Saiyan and fared a lot better and finally as a SSGod he was able to neutralize Beerus' big energy ball, thus it makes sense that SSG would still be better than his absorbed God Super Saiyan.
SSBlue could just be him finally reaching that power on his own via the Super Saiyan transformation.
And this really is shown in the movie: Goku can still keep up with Beerus in his base & SS forms after he lost SSG, and Beerus said that the decrease in his power is insignificant, to the point that Goku didn't even notice that he lost the form.Akira Toriyama wrote:Will Goku be able to transform into [Super Saiyan] God in the future?
I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Except Goku explicitly says that in Resurrection F. He says he's tapped into the power of Super Saiyan God, not that he's "surpassed it". The only things that have said otherwise are supporting materials such as the card games and the Super manga. The Super anime's stance was simply that Goku himself surpassed SSG, not that SSGSS was an inherently superior form (so far).DBZGTKOSDH wrote:But why assume that Toriyama intended it to be as strong as God? There is nothing saying that.
How do you know that Toriyama wasn't referring to SSGSS when he said that Goku can utilize its power without having to transform into SSG? Can you read his mind?The problem here is that Toriyama stated that Goku doesn't need to transform into a Super Saiyan God anymore because he has absorbed its power. He says that we will understand this after watching the movie, BoG, so he isn't talking about him not needing it because he now has Super Saiyan Blue.
That doesn't change the fact that there was a decrease in power, and that there's obviously a difference between base and SS regardless of whether Goku already has the power absorbed.And this really is shown in the movie: Goku can still keep up with Beerus in his base & SS forms after he lost SSG, and Beerus said that the decrease in his power is insignificant, to the point that Goku didn't even notice that he lost the form.
He doesn't say this, he just says that this is different from his normal SS form because he is a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. Which doesn't mean that he is as strong as a Super Saiyan God.Marlowe89 wrote:Except Goku explicitly says that in Resurrection F. He says he's tapped into the power of Super Saiyan God, not that he's "surpassed it".
I can't read his mind, but I can read the answer he gave (check my previous post again). He says that we will understand that he no longer needs SSG after watching Battle of Gods, and there is no SSGSS in BoG.How do you know that Toriyama wasn't referring to SSGSS when he said that Goku can utilize its power without having to transform into SSG? Can you read his mind?
An insignificant decrease, to the point that the small increase that SSG gives isn't of any use. SSGSS, however, apparently gives a significant increase.That doesn't change the fact that there was a decrease in power, and that there's obviously a difference between base and SS regardless of whether Goku already has the power absorbed.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Yes he does. In the Japanese version he calls himself a "Super Saiyan that is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". In the English version he says he's tapped into the power of Super Saiyan God. Unless you're bad at reading comprehension, both statements fundamentally mean the same thing.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:He doesn't say this
He no longer needs SSG because he no longer needs the ritual. This isn't hard to understand.I can't read his mind, but I can read the answer he gave (check my previous post again). He says that we will understand that he no longer needs SSG after watching Battle of Gods, and there is no SSGSS in BoG.
Nowhere in any kind of official material is it stated that the decrease was so insignificant that the full power of SSG is useless, so you literally just made that up. Even if your assumption was correct, it doesn't change the fact that Goku wasn't in base anyway so your point here is irrelevant in either scenario.An insignificant decrease, to the point that the small increase that SSG gives isn't of any use.
Which means that he is a Super Saiyan on top of Saiyan with the power of SSG, which is his base form. Which means that his base form is about as strong as his SSG.Marlowe89 wrote:Yes he does. In the Japanese version he calls himself a "Super Saiyan that is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". In the English version he says he's tapped into the power of Super Saiyan God. Unless you're bad at reading comprehension, both statements fundamentally mean the same thing.
That's not what he says.He no longer needs SSG because he no longer needs the ritual. This isn't hard to understand.
Toriyama says it, you are just making assumptions that he is talking about the ritual because you want to stick to your interpretation that SSG is as strong as SSB because it was described as a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.Nowhere in any kind of official material is it stated that the decrease was so insignificant that the full power of SSG is useless, so you literally just made that up. Even if your assumption was correct, it doesn't change the fact that Goku wasn't in base anyway so your point here is irrelevant in either scenario.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
As I assumed, your reading comprehension is off here.DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Which means that he is a Super Saiyan on top of Saiyan with the power of SSG, which is his base form. Which means that his base form is about as strong as his SSG.
He says he doesn't need SSG anymore because he absorbed its power. Goku's methods for tapping into that power without it is up to interpretation, and I find it more plausible to assume the latter proposition (that he taps into the full power of SSG with SS) than the former one.That's not what he says.
Toriyama never specifically says "the decrease was so insignificant that the full power of SSG is useless", he says that Goku didn't need SSG anymore after he absorbed it -- which is true, by the way, and doesn't necessarily contradict anything in regards the idea that SSG is equal to SSGSS. We've never seen Goku tap into SSG's FULL power in base outside of the DBS manga.Toriyama says it, you are just making assumptions that he is talking about the ritual because you want to stick to your interpretation that SSG is as strong as SSB because it was described as a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.
The script, translated by Herms, says this:Marlowe89 wrote:As I assumed, your reading comprehension is off here.
If he was calling it a form with Super Saiyan on top of a Saiyan with the power of SSG, he would say some variation of "Super Saiyan of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" or "Super Saiyan combined with the power of Super Saiyan God", not "Super Saiyan that is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". The phrase "that is" implies that he's equating his Super Saiyan form with that of a Saiyan that has absorbed that power, not that he's supplementing it with his Super Saiyan form.
The DragonTeam subs alternatively say that it is "the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".Freeza: “…So, you’ve become a Super Saiyan after all…”
Goku: “Hehehe…Actually, this here’s a bit different. It’s tough to explain, but I’m a Super Saiyan who’s a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God.”
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Herms' translation favors my interpretation more than yours, though. "Who is" means the same as "that is" in this context - Goku is equating his blue Super Saiyan form with a Saiyan that has the power of SSG. He isn't saying that his Super Saiyan form is in addition to it, he's calling the form a synonym of "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The script, translated by Herms, says this:
Personally, I can't understand why you have a hard time grasping the semantics of a simple statement.I can't understand why it is so difficult for people to understand this.
