Which is "Stronger"? SSG or SSGSS?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Herms' translation favors my interpretation more than yours, though. "Who is" means the same as "that is" in this context - Goku is equating his blue Super Saiyan form with a Saiyan that has the power of SSG. He isn't saying that his Super Saiyan form is in addition to it, he's calling the form a synonym of "Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".

"A Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". So SS on top of base with SSG power. It's that simple.

[Marlowe89]

All you're telling me here is that you don't know the meaning of "who's" or "that is". By your logic, if I say something like "I'm a sentient being who's a human", I'm saying that I'm a sentient being combined with a human, which makes no sense. No, I'm saying that I'm a sentient being who happens to be specifically a human. Likewise, Goku is declaring that he's a Super Saiyan who is specifically a Saiyan with the power of SSG.

English isn't your first language, I'm guessing.

[Kamiccolo9]

All you're telling me here is that you don't know the meaning of "who's" or "that is". By your logic, if I say something like "I'm a sentient being who's a human", I'm saying that I'm a sentient being combined with a human, which makes no sense. No, I'm saying that I'm a sentient being who happens to be more specifically a human. Likewise, Goku is declaring that he's a Super Saiyan who is more specifically a Saiyan with the power of SSG.

English isn't your first language, I'm guessing.

Well, it makes sense, but it's redundant. There can be non-sentient humans. Granted, if a person is mentally and physically able to declare himself sentient and a human, than it is already evident that they are, in fact, sentient.

The rest is right, though.

[Marlowe89]

All you're telling me here is that you don't know the meaning of "who's" or "that is". By your logic, if I say something like "I'm a sentient being who's a human", I'm saying that I'm a sentient being combined with a human, which makes no sense. No, I'm saying that I'm a sentient being who happens to be more specifically a human. Likewise, Goku is declaring that he's a Super Saiyan who is more specifically a Saiyan with the power of SSG.

English isn't your first language, I'm guessing.

Well, it makes sense, but it's redundant. There can be non-sentient humans. Granted, if a person is mentally and physically able to declare himself sentient and a human, than it is already evident that they are, in fact, sentient.

The rest is right, though.

I probably could have gone with a better analogy, but my reasoning was that you can't be a sentient being combined with a human since humans are generally a specific category of sentient beings. Basically, "who is" is a defining statement, not a mathematical one.

[Kamiccolo9]

All you're telling me here is that you don't know the meaning of "who's" or "that is". By your logic, if I say something like "I'm a sentient being who's a human", I'm saying that I'm a sentient being combined with a human, which makes no sense. No, I'm saying that I'm a sentient being who happens to be more specifically a human. Likewise, Goku is declaring that he's a Super Saiyan who is more specifically a Saiyan with the power of SSG.

English isn't your first language, I'm guessing.

Well, it makes sense, but it's redundant. There can be non-sentient humans. Granted, if a person is mentally and physically able to declare himself sentient and a human, than it is already evident that they are, in fact, sentient.

The rest is right, though.

I probably could have gone with a better analogy, but my reasoning was that you can't be a sentient being combined with a human since humans are generally a specific category of sentient beings. Basically, "who is" is a defining statement, not a mathematical one.

Oh, I got your reasoning. I was just in the mood to be needlessly pedantic. And yeah, as I said, your idea was right.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

All you're telling me here is that you don't know the meaning of "who's" or "that is". By your logic, if I say something like "I'm a sentient being who's a human", I'm saying that I'm a sentient being combined with a human, which makes no sense. No, I'm saying that I'm a sentient being who happens to be specifically a human. Likewise, Goku is declaring that he's a Super Saiyan who is specifically a Saiyan with the power of SSG.

English isn't your first language, I'm guessing.

It isn't, I'm from Greece. By your example, I say something like "I'm a sentient being who's a human", I'm saying that I'm a sentient being on top of being a human, not I'm a sentient being combined with a human. In our case, "sentient being" is a Super Saiyan, and "human" is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (which is the Saiyan beyond God state, his new regular form).

And if that really was the case, why not transform into a regular Super Saiyan God? Goku can still do it, and even if he doesn't know how to do it (he only did it once accidentally, as far as we know), there should be a way for him to learn it. But still, Toriyama says that he no longer needs the form, and the movie shows this. Toyotaro is an official mangaka of the franchise now, do you think that he was he too dumb to understand what SSB is and he pulled the SSB>SSG from his ass? Super Saiyan Blue is clearly the strongest form. It isn't a way to tap into the Super Saiyan God power, like the dub says.

[Marlowe89]

It isn't, I'm from Greece. By your example, I say something like "I'm a sentient being who's a human", I'm saying that I'm a sentient being on top of being a human, not I'm a sentient being combined with a human. In our case, "sentient being" is a Super Saiyan, and "human" is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God (which is the Saiyan beyond God state, his new regular form).

But you're not a sentient being on top of being a human in a literal sense, so that reasoning doesn't apply to Goku's statement (which IS literal by your reasoning). Again, attributive descriptions like "who is" and "that is" are not mathematical, so Goku isn't describing a Super Saiyan on top of a Saiyan with the power of SSG - he's saying that the blue Super Saiyan form in question IS a Saiyan with the power of SSG.

And if that really was the case, why not transform into a regular Super Saiyan God? Goku can still do it, and even if he doesn't know how to do it (he only did it once accidentally, as far as we know), there should be a way for him to learn it.

He can't do it at will, that was the entire point of him losing the form and having to find an alternative method of using its power. I never said that Toyotaro was dumb, I'm saying that he isn't Toriyama.

And like I said, the dub doesn't contradict the Japanese dialogue in the film. Both statements have the same meaning in that Goku's new form is using SSG's power.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

But you're not a sentient being on top of being a human in a literal sense, so that reasoning doesn't apply to Goku's statement (which IS literal by your reasoning).

Of course you are. You can be a human without being a sentient being (because of a brain damage for example), and you can be a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God without being a Super Saiyan. Goku is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, and by becoming a Super Saiyan on top of that, he became a Super Saiyan Blue.

He can't do it at will, that was the entire point of him losing the form and having to find an alternative method of using its power.

Why would he be unable to learn how to do it at will? If it can be done accidentally, it should be able to be done at will as well. And again, Toriyama said that he doesn't need the form at all, and that was before SSB was introduced, both in-universe & out-of-universe.

[Faustus]

The case can really be argued either way... because "with" is an exceedingly ambiguous term. It can mean "accompanied by", "mixed with", "having", "using", or, in this case, even "affected by". Thus "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" might mean "Super Saiyan using/drawing on the strength of Super Saiyan God", which would argue for Marlowe89's interpretation, or "Super Saiyan as affected/influenced by the (absorbed) power of Super Saiyan God", which opens up the door for DBZGTKOSDH's view.

Now, I happen to favor the latter stance because I think Goku's explaining the form's unusual color (why it's blue, not yellow), rather than its strength. But ultimately I don't think it's possible disambiguate without reference to the original Japanese, if it's even any clearer there (which I frankly doubt).

EDIT: Alternatively, it now occurs to me that maybe the locus of ambiguity here is the term "power", which could mean "energy"/"energy source" in a general way or "level of strength" more precisely.

[Kamiccolo9]

The case can really be argued either way... because "with" is an exceedingly ambiguous term. It can mean "accompanied by", "mixed with", "using", or, in this case, even "affected by". Thus "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" might mean "Super Saiyan using/drawing on the strength of Super Saiyan God", which would argue for Marlowe89's interpretation, or "Super Saiyan as affected/influenced by the (absorbed) power of Super Saiyan God", which opens up the door for DBZGTKOSDH's view.

Now, I happen to favor the latter stance because I think Goku's explaining the form's unusual color (why it's blue, not yellow), rather than its strength. But ultimately I don't think it's possible disambiguate without reference to the original Japanese, if it's even any clearer there (which I frankly doubt).

The line doesn't say "a Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God," though. It says "A Super Saiyan who's/that's a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God." The sentence structure declares in no vague terms that "(this form of) Super Saiyan has the power of a Super Saiyan God."

I mean, you all can argue what that actually means in terms of DB terminology, but that's what the sentence literally says. But, like you said, it may be worded a bit differently in Japanese, and I can't speak towards that.

[Faustus]

My mistake about the quote, but I don't see why (expanding the sentence structure per your correction) "A Super Saiyan who/that is a Saiyan influenced by the power of Super Saiyan God" would necessarily be ruled out as an interpretation. Again, it more or less comes down to what exactly Goku's explaining. If it's the color, he could very well be saying that "a Saiyan who/that is influenced by the power of Super Saiyan God" turns blue once they turn "Super Saiyan", with no implications whatsoever for strength.

The sentence structure declares in no vague terms that "(this form of) Super Saiyan has the power of a Super Saiyan God."

If it does, I don't think it helps matters much. "Has" isn't a restrictive term. The ambiguity is alive and well.

That's leaving out that "power" is also problematic, which I've edited my previous post to reflect.

[Marlowe89]

Of course you are.

You aren't a sentient being on top of being a human because your sentience (or lack thereof) isn't distinct from your physiology in the literal sense, regardless of whether you're brain dead. Either way you've just ignored the entirety of the second sentence in my post; the sentence structure of Goku's statement and the phrase "who is" doesn't allow for a combination or an additive in the mathematical sense. By using the phrase "Super Saiyan that is / who is a Saiyan with the power of SSG", Goku is literally identifying his SSGSS form as a Saiyan with the power of SSG. He's not saying that he's a Super Saiyan "on top" of X, he's specifically clarifying that he's a Super Saiyan that IS X.

Now it's possible that the actual dialogue favors your interpretation and Herms mistranslated, but there is no support for that sentiment as of yet so the dub isn't inaccurate as far as we're aware.

Why would he be unable to do it at will?

Why are you speculating something that was never implied?

And again, Toriyama said that he doesn't need the form at all, and that was before SSB was introduced, both in-universe & out-of-universe.

I like how you keep saying this as if it's remotely relevant or contradicts anything at all. I could just as easily say that he doesn't need SSG because he can tap into its power with SSGSS.

[Xeztin]

I'm not sure which statement Goku actually said, but if he said "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God", in my opinion that's exactly what it is. A Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God. It would explain why Goku reverted back to Normal Super Saiyan and still had the power of a Super Saiyan God. It would be basically an excuse to make Goku's normal SSJ form insanely stronger, and the blue hair would probably be the after effect's of absorbing Godly ki, but the real reason would be to make a distinct difference between SSJ and SSJB. The problem with this is Goku's base form being called Saiyan Beyond God, IF SSJB=SSG then that would mean the base is weaker, but it's implied that it is "Beyond God" so this make's no sense unless they rename it, or say like he's half the power of SSG at base, and is only equal when he goes SSJB.
This would make sense, since it is called "Super Saiyan God", and not "Saiyan God", but it would be rather confusing. When Goku reverted back to normal SSJ, apparently he was still a SSG without the look, if he dropped to Base, he would probably be weaker.

If the actual statement was A Super Saiyan who's/that's a Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God then to me that would be implying that he is in his Super Saiyan form, and is a normal Saiyan, Not a "Super Saiyan God" but with the power of a SSG. In Simpler words, he's no longer a God, and he's tapping into the absorbed Ki/power in his normal SSJ form, which causes it to go Blue over time. This to me would still mean that SSJB=SSG in terms of Raw power, but In my opinion it is also weaker, simply because if he is only using the power or strength of SSG, then he may not be able to heal himself anymore, and his Ki might also be sensible. The brain buster is though, If his ki is again sensible, more than likely you can't sense "The Asorbed Godly Ki inside him" since it is the power of the SSG which is not sensible. This would throw people off, as if they read his Ki it would just be the normal power of a Super Saiyan, since Godly Ki can't be sensed by any mortal, but God's only.

As for why he doesn't go SSJB 2 and 3, the only reason I can come up is because they're only two true Super Saiyan forms, being Super Saiyan, and Super Saiyan God.
Super Saiyan 2, and 3 are just variants of Super Saiyan, which bring's me to believe that if Super Saiyan Blue was Super Saiyan God's power+Super Saiyan's power then he would have went SSJB3 since it obviously would have been stronger, implying that SSJB=SSG, and Base is weaker than SSG, because SSJB does not stack Super Saiyan God, and Super Saiyan's power. Since the power doesn't stack and SSJB is on par with SSG, and SSJ2 and 3 just being variants, then Goku going Super Saiyan Blue 2 and 3 would not increase his power, simply because it didn't stack with SSJ1 so it wouldn't with them either because SSJ1-3 are the SAME form, but would probably rather slow him down instead, since 2 and especially 3 have their side effects. Now if Super Saiyan 2 and 3 were separate forms, then they would obviously stack with SSG's power, which would mean SSJB=SSG and SSJB 2/3>SSJG

Edit- On a side note, if the power exactly stacked, that would be like a Super Saiyan having a fusion with a Super Saiyan God, and since their power would never be equal then the fusion could never happen. I'd like to think the Ki from these two transformation's could never be combined either, since one can be sensed and the other cant, This is just me overthinking it though.

Edit (2) - The other crazy thing is that if Super Saiyan Blue 2, and Super Saiyan Blue 3, doesn't make Goku any stronger, then that would mean we will never see another Super Saiyan transformation again after Super Saiyan Blue, unless it's a Super Saiyan God 2, or something completely unrelated to the "Super Saiyan form" or rather just another line of Saiyan transformations, like Oozaru.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

He's not saying that he's a Super Saiyan "on top" of X, he's specifically clarifying that he's a Super Saiyan that IS X.

Why is the "on top" out of question? And if what you say was the case, why didn't he just say "a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God"? He isn't talking about 2 things, he is talking about 3 things.

Why are you speculating something that was never implied?

Same goes to you. You are speculating that it is impossible for Goku to learn how to go SSG at will.

I like how you keep saying this as if it's remotely relevant or contradicts anything at all. I could just as easily say that he doesn't need SSG because he can tap into its power with SSGSS.

But again, that doesn't make sense, because SSGSS isn't in BoG, and Toriyama said that we will understand that Goku no longer needs SSG after watching BoG. And he doesn't talk about the ritual, he is talking about the form itself.

[Marlowe89]

Why is the "on top" out of question?

Because that's not what he said. "On top" is an additive phrase, "that/who is" is not an additive phrase but a descriptor. I'm not sure how many times I have to repeat this. When Goku says "Super Saiyan that/who is a Saiyan with the power of X", he's identifying his Super Saiyan form to be a Saiyan with the power of X. Your interpretation would only be correct if Goku used an additive phrase as opposed to a descriptor, such as "on top of", "in addition to", "combined with", "as well as", etc.

And if what you say was the case, why didn't he just say "a Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God"? He isn't talking about 2 things, he is talking about 3 things.

Because "Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God" is too ambiguous and actually can be interpreted either way due to the lack of specific descriptors or additives. Whether he's talking about three things is irrelevant because two of those things function as a descriptor for one of those things according to the sentence structure of the statement.

Same goes to you. You are speculating that it is impossible for Goku to learn how to go SSG at will.

Goku has never shown the ability to go SSG at will, and there has never been any implication of such, so that's not merely speculation -- that's simply going by the information we currently have on SSG's mechanics.

But again, that doesn't make sense, because SSGSS isn't in BoG, and Toriyama said that we will understand that Goku no longer needs SSG after watching BoG. And he doesn't talk about the ritual, he is talking about the form itself.

The blue Super Saiyan may not be in BoG, but Goku does use a Super Saiyan form that uses the power of Super Saiyan God after SSG expires. What Toriyama was referring to is the fact that he can tap into its power after losing the form. He certainly doesn't spend a lot of time in base after SSG expires, and I'm positive that there's a reason for that.

[Kamiccolo9]

DBZGTKOSDH, your English is perfectly fine, especially for a non-native speaker. But Marlowe is entirely correct here. The "is" in the sentence makes "Super Saiyan" into a direct comparison with everything that follows it. There is no stacking of descriptors; it is a very direct comparison. The sentence literally says, in mathematical terms, if you will, than "(This form of) Super Saiyan=Saiyan with the power of a SSJG." I'm sorry if you disagree with what that means, but that's really irrelevant. That's what the sentence says. What it actually means is another issue entirely, but focusing on the grammar here is not going to help you make your case.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Goku has never shown the ability to go SSG at will, and there has never been any implication of such, so that's not merely speculation -- that's simply going by the information we currently have on SSG's mechanics.

But that doesn't mean that it's impossible for him to learn how to turn into a SSG. The fact that he could accidentally do it means that he should be able to learn how to do it again.

The blue Super Saiyan may not be in BoG, but Goku does use a Super Saiyan form that uses the power of Super Saiyan God after SSG expires. What Toriyama was referring to is the fact that he can tap into its power after losing the form. He certainly doesn't spend a lot of time in base after SSG expires, and I'm positive that there's a reason for that.

Toriyama's out-of-universe answer was that he just wanted SS Goku in the final fight.

DBZGTKOSDH, your English is perfectly fine, especially for a non-native speaker. But Marlowe is entirely correct here. The "is" in the sentence makes "Super Saiyan" into a direct comparison with everything that follows it. There is no stacking of descriptors; it is a very direct comparison. The sentence literally says, in mathematical terms, if you will, than "(This form of) Super Saiyan=Saiyan with the power of a SSJG." I'm sorry if you disagree with what that means, but that's really irrelevant. That's what the sentence says. What it actually means is another issue entirely, but focusing on the grammar here is not going to help you make your case.

I see then. But still, this doesn't have to mean that SSB is as strong as SSG, being a Super Saiyan who's a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God could amplify his power & make him stronger than he is as just a Super Saiyan God, which is what everything else shows, including BoG, FnF, and Toriyama combined.

[Marlowe89]

But that doesn't mean that it's impossible for him to learn how to turn into a SSG.

I never said it was impossible, I'm saying that your argument operates on little more than unfounded speculation. We could argue about this all day if you feel so inclined, but I'm not going to believe that SSG can be triggered at will without a ritual until I see it for myself. Your argument is mainly relying on assumptions at this point.

Toriyama's out-of-universe answer was that he just wanted SS Goku in the final fight.

Out-of-universe reasons are irrelevant when it comes to in-universe reasons though. I'd say a large majority of written events constitute both in-universe and out-of-universe explanations for a particular authorial decision.

But still, this doesn't have to mean that SSB is as strong as SSG

I'm certainly not saying that SSGSS has to be as strong as SSG. However, that's exactly what the translation means if we take the sentence structure of that statement literally, for what it is, without making any further assumptions. Kamiccolo explained it perfectly -- in mathematical terms, the sentence means "This form of Super Saiyan = Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God". Nothing more than that was said, and it's the closest thing we have to an official explanation for what the blue-haired Super Saiyan form actually is (aside from the Super manga of course, but that's an adaptation of the Super anime so the latter personally takes precedence in my mind).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Out-of-universe reasons are irrelevant when it comes to in-universe reasons though. I'd say a large majority of written events constitute both in-universe and out-of-universe explanations for a particular authorial decision.

Beerus didn't make any comment about Goku's SS transformation, he just said that Goku's power took an insignificant decrease after SSG disappeared. So, I think that Goku turned SS in order to show to us that SS1/2/3/God are now useless, since Goku absorbed the power of SSG in his base form, something that Toyotaro seems to imply in his manga adaptation of FnF. DBSuper doesn't have Goku revert in his base form though, he is always a Super Saiyan there, and according to Goku, his power didn't decrease at all. So, maybe his base form is slightly weaker that SSG, and SS is exactly as strong as SSG, and SSB is stronger than SSG. At least that's what we get from everything.

in mathematical terms, the sentence means "This form of Super Saiyan = Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God".

Yes, but it doesn't necessarily mean "This form of Super Saiyan = as strong as Super Saiyan God".

[Kuririn Fan]

I seriously dont know what is there to discuss, SSGSS is stronger, its so obvious.