Official On-Going DBZ 2015 Movie Thread: "Resurrection 'F'"

[ABED]

At least Piccolo got pressured by an actual opponent as opposed to the LOLaser that almost killed Goku.

Certainly silly, the Piccolo thing just came off as worse. While it's not a great excuse, at least Goku didn't have his full attention on Sorbet.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

I know DB has a bunch of inconsistencies, but Shisami only has a power on par with Dodoria and Zarbon. Piccolo's DWARFS all of them, but he needs Gohan's help? That took me completely out of the movie.

He didn't need Gohan's help, Gohan butted in and intervened, Piccolo himself said he had this. Besides Shisami was new to the battle Piccolo wasn't (and it did seem they were purposely not killing the opponents to buy time for Goku and Vegeta so this would certainly add more difficultly), it is like Vegeta's beat down on Freeza that wouldn't have gone the same way if Vegeta took on G.Freeza first.

[ABED]

I know DB has a bunch of inconsistencies, but Shisami only has a power on par with Dodoria and Zarbon. Piccolo's DWARFS all of them, but he needs Gohan's help? That took me completely out of the movie.

He didn't need Gohan's help, Gohan butted in and intervened, Piccolo himself said he had this. Besides Shisami was new to the battle Piccolo wasn't (and it did seem they were purposely not killing the opponents to buy time for Goku and Vegeta so this would certainly add more difficultly), it is like Vegeta's beat down on Freeza that wouldn't have gone the same way if Vegeta took on G.Freeza first.

Regardless of whether he needed, Shisami was NOTHING to Piccolo, but somehow put up a fight. it doesn't matter if he was new, all of those fighters were gnats compared to Piccolo.

[Blade]

I know DB has a bunch of inconsistencies, but Shisami only has a power on par with Dodoria and Zarbon. Piccolo's DWARFS all of them, but he needs Gohan's help? That took me completely out of the movie.

He didn't need Gohan's help, Gohan butted in and intervened, Piccolo himself said he had this. Besides Shisami was new to the battle Piccolo wasn't (and it did seem they were purposely not killing the opponents to buy time for Goku and Vegeta so this would certainly add more difficultly), it is like Vegeta's beat down on Freeza that wouldn't have gone the same way if Vegeta took on G.Freeza first.

Regardless of whether he needed, Shisami was NOTHING to Piccolo, but somehow put up a fight. it doesn't matter if he was new, all of those fighters were gnats compared to Piccolo.

Via every degree of In-Universe logic, every guidebook and everything we know that should be true - but in the context of the film's narrative it doesn't appear to be.

It is what it is on the screen. Whilst it seems insane to suggest that Shisami is at least as strong as Android #17 or somehow managed to trade blows with Piccolo whilst being at Zarbon/Dodoria level strength, like a lot of things in Dragonball, a willingness to adhere to previously established logic is often lacking.

It's not like there hasn't been a recent precedent for this sort of thing. I mean, an angry Vegeta being stronger than Gotenks or a Super Saiyan 3? Even if you go back to the Buu arc, accounts of Piccolo's strength seem pretty muddled up - take for example Kaioshin being in an apparent different dimension of power to Piccolo and yet being so easily brushed aside by Majin Buu. That one sparks furious debate even now.

[Captain Space]

Even if you go back to the Buu arc, accounts of Piccolo's strength seem pretty muddled up - take for example Kaioshin being in an apparent different dimension of power to Piccolo and yet being so easily brushed aside by Majin Buu. That one sparks furious debate even now.

Does it? Seems to me there's plenty of room for:

Majin Buu > Top-tier SSJ2s (Goku/Majin Vegeta) > Other SSJ2s >>>>> Kaioshin >>> Piccolo

[The Monkey King]

Even the infamous laser ring is no more out of place than any other time a stronger character has been injured by a well placed strike by a weaker character.

Straight up bullshit, stop being such an apologist.

Any other time this happened in the manga the character who got hit by a character much weak than themselves were only mildly injured or fazed and quickly got over it.

Don't give me examples like Piccolo and Goku or Gohan and Cell as their PLs were rather close.

Goku almost died with a power gap bigger than any in the series before. Freeza himself even called it 'a mere raygun'. Meaning it's nothing more special than what's weilded by Freeza's scrub soldiers.

Even in the Namek saga when Goku (who's max power was 90,000 at the time) would suppress himself to 5000 to save energy.

The only way for this scene to make sense is if Goku somehow lowered his PL down to 5 while also maintaining his SSGSS form.

It would've made some sense if he powered down back to base as a call back to what he did to Freeza on Namek.

With the logic set out in the manga the result of Sorbet firing his laser at Goku should've been like this when Krillin launched an attack on an off guard Cell:

Spoiler:

With 'F' logic Krillin should've splattered him like this:

Spoiler:

Now don't get me wrong I enjoyed 'F' but so many of the 'Power level' related things were so wrong it hurt.

[LuckyCat]

Regardless of whether he needed, Shisami was NOTHING to Piccolo, but somehow put up a fight. it doesn't matter if he was new, all of those fighters were gnats compared to Piccolo.

Via every degree of In-Universe logic, every guidebook and everything we know that should be true

Well no, one In-Universe explanation would be that Piccolo mellowed out during peacetime like Gohan and simply isn't what he was in the Android arc. Or Shisami underwent training alongside Freeza and they both made some dramatic increases sparring together.

[ekrolo2]

Regardless of whether he needed, Shisami was NOTHING to Piccolo, but somehow put up a fight. it doesn't matter if he was new, all of those fighters were gnats compared to Piccolo.

Via every degree of In-Universe logic, every guidebook and everything we know that should be true

Well no, one In-Universe explanation would be that Piccolo mellowed out during peacetime like Gohan and simply isn't what he was in the Android arc. Or Shisami underwent training alongside Freeza and they both made some dramatic increases sparring together.

Except we know that Toriyama spends his days training so no, he can only have gotten stronger. Plus, if Shisami is only at Zarbon levels, why the hell would Freeza use him as a sparring partner? Its not like when Goku and Gohan went into the ROSAT where they were at least pretty close in their base forms, Freeza dwarfs Shisami utterly in power.

[LuckyCat]

Except we know that Toriyama spends his days training so no, he can only have gotten stronger. Plus, if Shisami is only at Zarbon levels, why the hell would Freeza use him as a sparring partner? Its not like when Goku and Gohan went into the ROSAT where they were at least pretty close in their base forms, Freeza dwarfs Shisami utterly in power.

Woah, woah, don't get Toriyama involved in this, we don't know his battle power! Joking aside, Piccolo is shown simply babysitting in the movie, and he was already marginalized as a fighter in the Buu saga. And why wouldn't Freeza train his minions? He recognizes they are weaker than before, and he may want to train a new "Captain Ginyu".

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Even the infamous laser ring is no more out of place than any other time a stronger character has been injured by a well placed strike by a weaker character.

Straight up bullshit, stop being such an apologist.

Any other time this happened in the manga the character who got hit by a character much weak than themselves were only mildly injured or fazed and quickly got over it.

Don't give me examples like Piccolo and Goku or Gohan and Cell as their PLs were rather close.

Goku almost died with a power gap bigger than any in the series before. Freeza himself even called it 'a mere raygun'. Meaning it's nothing more special than what's weilded by Freeza's scrub soldiers.

Even in the Namek saga when Goku (who's max power was 90,000 at the time) would suppress himself to 5000 to save energy.

The only way for this scene to make sense is if Goku somehow lowered his PL down to 5 while also maintaining his SSGSS form.

It would've made some sense if he powered down back to base as a call back to what he did to Freeza on Namek.

With the logic set out in the manga the result of Sorbet firing his laser at Goku should've been like this when Krillin launched an attack on an off guard Cell:

Spoiler:

With 'F' logic Krillin should've splattered him like this:

Spoiler:

Now don't get me wrong I enjoyed 'F' but so many of the 'Power level' related things were so wrong it hurt.

Goku almost died not from the laser but what Freeza did to him after stomping on him. And in that Cell example I am pretty sure Cell was at-least wary of everyone's presence. Goku was never aware of Sorbet at all it was a back and fourth between him and Freeza when he appeared on Earth and then the fight began, and then Sorbet started cowering behind a rock, he wasn't exactly on the sidelines cheering Freeza on.

[ekrolo2]

Except we know that Toriyama spends his days training so no, he can only have gotten stronger. Plus, if Shisami is only at Zarbon levels, why the hell would Freeza use him as a sparring partner? Its not like when Goku and Gohan went into the ROSAT where they were at least pretty close in their base forms, Freeza dwarfs Shisami utterly in power.

Woah, woah, don't get Toriyama involved in this, we don't know his battle power! Joking aside, Piccolo is shown simply babysitting in the movie, and he was already marginalized as a fighter in the Buu saga. And why wouldn't Freeza train his minions? He recognizes they are weaker than before, and he may want to train a new "Captain Ginyu".

Because Freeza doesn't care about them? I mean, if Freeza REALLY cared about improving the strength of his army, he wouldn't have basically sent them to die which he himself acknowledges would happen in the movie itself. Freeza doesn't even have any reason to bring the army really bar the fact the non Goku & Vegeta people need something to do.

[Baggie_Saiyan]

Except we know that Toriyama spends his days training so no, he can only have gotten stronger. Plus, if Shisami is only at Zarbon levels, why the hell would Freeza use him as a sparring partner? Its not like when Goku and Gohan went into the ROSAT where they were at least pretty close in their base forms, Freeza dwarfs Shisami utterly in power.

Woah, woah, don't get Toriyama involved in this, we don't know his battle power! Joking aside, Piccolo is shown simply babysitting in the movie, and he was already marginalized as a fighter in the Buu saga. And why wouldn't Freeza train his minions? He recognizes they are weaker than before, and he may want to train a new "Captain Ginyu".

Because Freeza doesn't care about them? I mean, if Freeza REALLY cared about improving the strength of his army, he wouldn't have basically sent them to die which he himself acknowledges would happen in the movie itself. Freeza doesn't even have any reason to bring the army really bar the fact the non Goku & Vegeta people need something to do.

Sure he does, it is the same reason he bough them when he came with King Cold to Earth the first time. You don't leave home without your minions!

[ekrolo2]

Woah, woah, don't get Toriyama involved in this, we don't know his battle power! Joking aside, Piccolo is shown simply babysitting in the movie, and he was already marginalized as a fighter in the Buu saga. And why wouldn't Freeza train his minions? He recognizes they are weaker than before, and he may want to train a new "Captain Ginyu".

Because Freeza doesn't care about them? I mean, if Freeza REALLY cared about improving the strength of his army, he wouldn't have basically sent them to die which he himself acknowledges would happen in the movie itself. Freeza doesn't even have any reason to bring the army really bar the fact the non Goku & Vegeta people need something to do.

Sure he does, it is the same reason he bough them when he came with King Cold to Earth the first time. You don't leave home without your minions!

Fair enough lol, but he didn't need to bring in every remaining soldier he had though.

[ss4songoku]

I know DB has a bunch of inconsistencies, but Shisami only has a power on par with Dodoria and Zarbon. Piccolo's DWARFS all of them, but he needs Gohan's help? That took me completely out of the movie.

Piccolo didn't need or want Gohan's help. When Gohan jumped in to help piccolo he said he could handle it. Piccolo was simply caught off guard by Sashimi's power since it was so much higher than the other soldiers he had been fighting. He just underestimated him for a brief moment.

[ekrolo2]

I know DB has a bunch of inconsistencies, but Shisami only has a power on par with Dodoria and Zarbon. Piccolo's DWARFS all of them, but he needs Gohan's help? That took me completely out of the movie.

Piccolo didn't need or want Gohan's help. When Gohan jumped in to help piccolo he said he could handle it. Piccolo was simply caught off guard by Sashimi's power since it was so much higher than the other soldiers he had been fighting. He just underestimated him for a brief moment.

Which immediately gets shot in the foot when you realize Piccolo fired off his signature blast to try and kill him. But for the sake of argument, let's say he still held back and didn't get serious until after that: why didn't he just one shot him instead of engaging in pointless fisticuffs? Just like with GT, people need to accept that the power levels are broken and don't make sense.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Straight up bullshit, stop being such an apologist.

*long rant*

Yeah, because not joining what's practically a hivemind at this point that this just has to be wrong, because reasons, is being an apologist.

I'm not gonna get drug into a debate on this again, it's been done to death already. All I've done is state that, now having actually seen the movie with my own eyes, I still have no problem with that moment, and still fail to understand why it's such a big deal to anyone else either.

If 'accurate power levels' is what you want out of the series, despite the fact that things are repeatedly shown over the series to constantly be in flux, than that's great for you. It is, really - we all have our specific interests in this franchise. But for me, I could really care less.

[MagicBox]

Straight up bullshit, stop being such an apologist.

Good lord, I check this thread for the first time in months... Have these kinds of posts really not stopped yet? It's been half a year. We still haven't gotten back all the great members we lost from this rudeness and negativity.

I was going to post my thoughts on the movie (which I saw yesterday for the first time and very much enjoyed), but perhaps I'll wait longer. Instead, I wanted to ask a quick question. A little earlier, people were talking about how the dub "left out" the explanation of Majin Buu being asleep during the fight. Stupid question, but... was that explanation in the original movie? I just watched the film subtitled and there was never any mention of Majin Buu sleeping. Yamcha and Chaozu? They're mentioned. Goten and Trunks? Yep, they're mentioned, too. But not Buu. Even the detailed summary of the movie on the main site doesn't mention him sleeping anymore.

Are we sure that explanation is in the film?

[Gyt Kaliba]

I wanted to ask a quick question. A little earlier, people were talking about how the dub "left out" the explanation of Majin Buu "being asleep" during the fight. Stupid question, but... was that explanation in the original movie? I watched the film subtitled and there was never any mention of Majin Buu sleeping. Even the detailed summary of the movie on the main site doesn't mention it anymore.

Are we sure that explanation is in the film?

I could have sworn I'd read that it was, but I haven't watched it subbed yet myself, so...hmm. Maybe it was something from Toriyama's script? I know I read it somewhere here anyway.

[MagicBox]

I could have sworn I'd read that it was, but I haven't watched it subbed yet myself, so...hmm. Maybe it was something from Toriyama's script? I know I read it somewhere here anyway.

Same here! I know I read it somewhere. I bet you're right. Maybe it was something from Toriyama's screenplay that got cut.

Yamcha, Chaozu, Goten, and Trunks are still mentioned in the film itself, though.

[Blade]

Even if you go back to the Buu arc, accounts of Piccolo's strength seem pretty muddled up - take for example Kaioshin being in an apparent different dimension of power to Piccolo and yet being so easily brushed aside by Majin Buu. That one sparks furious debate even now.

Does it? Seems to me there's plenty of room for:

Majin Buu > Top-tier SSJ2s (Goku/Majin Vegeta) > Other SSJ2s >>>>> Kaioshin >>> Piccolo

And I guess the issue with that is how poorly that logic is applied. Take Pui for example, Kaioshin fears him and insists that everyone should work together to take him down - but Vegeta does so in his regular state without breaking a sweat. It's hard therefore to fathom why Piccolo would fear the strength of someone who estimates himself to be far below that of a base Saiyan without assuming that Piccolo's strength has deminished rapidly since the Cell games or Toriyama has just approached the whole thing hap-hazardly.

I mean, the whole thing is just nuts in retrospect. Kaioshin saw how strong Gohan was at the Tenkaichi Budokai when he was attacked by Yamu and Spopovich, yet he seems to forget all of that once they rock up at Babidi's spaceship.

So going back to the film, as is often the case in Dragonball, strength comparisons are only as good as they appear on the screen in a given plot. Obviously the plot-called for someone big and strong to be shoe-horned in, and I guess we can intimate from Yamamuro's storyboards that Shisami was a last-minute addition anyway.