Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Speedster]

YES I know what Beerus has said in Dragonball Super, implying that Goku could have not defeated Freeza in his base form HOWEVER one can argue that, at least in the original BoGs movie, Goku was suppressing his base power while Beerus made that comment. Anyway in this thread I will mostly focus on the evidence in the original manga.

An attempt to support Beerus' comment…
Let's first try our best to support that base Goku at the start of the BoGs arc is still weaker than 100% final form Freeza of the Namek saga. Below I give the most favourable Android-saga power-scaling scenario for that argument. I make use of the “official” Super Saiyan multipliers (i.e. x50 for SSJ1, x2 for SSJ2 and x4 for SSJ3) and I denote the power level of base Goku when the Androids first appeared as Y. You may substitute Y equal to say 5million but don't pay too much attention to the exact numbers. What is the most important thing to consider is the order of magnitude of the relative differences.

Base Goku against Freeza=0.6Y
Base Goku (healthy)/Vegeta=Y (when the Androids appear)
SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta=50Y.
Android 17/18=75Y
Piccolo (before fused with Kami)=0.75Y
Piccolo (Kamiccolo)=75Y
Imperfect Cell (first appearance versus Piccolo) = 65Y
Android 16/Imperfect Cell (after absorbing thousands of humans)=90Y
Piccolo (post RoSaT)=100Y
Semi Perfect Cell=180Y
Base Vegeta (post RoSaT)=5Y
SSJ1 Vegeta (post RoSaT)= 250Y
Base Goku (post RoSaT)=8Y
SSJ1 Goku (post RoSaT)=400Y
Perfect Cell=550Y
Super Perfect Cell=700Y
SSJ2 Gohan=1200Y
Injured SSJ2 Gohan =600Y

PROBLEMS
Problem 1
Android 19 and 20 need to have a big power level difference amongst them while it is implied they are more or less comparable.

Premises:
a) Piccolo (before fusing with Kami) needed to be weaker than base Goku – say 75% of base Goku. That because base Goku was ahead of Piccolo in the Freeza saga and he stayed ahead of him in the Android saga. There is no reason not to, given that he trained equally as hard.

b) Piccolo was stronger than Android 20 (Dr Gero). Say at least by 1.3-1.5x. If Piccolo was 75% of base Goku that would put Android 20 at 35-50% of Base Goku (0.35Y-0.5Y).

c) Goku turned SSJ1 against Android 19. Yes he dominated Android 19 similar to what he did as SSJ3 versus Fat Buu. Say 2x times stronger. Perhaps 5x at the very most. Same goes for SSJ1 Vegeta. That would put Android 19 at a power level of around 10Y-20Y. Besides if he was stronger than 50x then he wouldn't need to go SSJ1.

(d)Hence since Android 20 was 0.35-0.5Y and Android 19 is 10Y-20Y is a difference of around 20-60x.

That is a heck of a difference between 19 and 20! Gero acted like himself and 20 were pretty much equal.

Problem 2
After Imperfect Cell fired his Kamehameha against Piccolo he explained he had cells from Goku from 3 years earlier. Piccolo remarked that that’s why it was soooo weaker than expected as Goku grew way much stronger during their 3 years of training. How could he say that Goku grew much stronger if he raised his power level from 3.5 to 5 million and the reference frame of power levels in the Android saga is in the 100s? Cell was not a Super Saiyan neither did he have the equivalent golden aura when he fired that Kamehameha.

Problem 3
According to this power-scaling logic as you can see even post RoSaT Base Goku/Vegeta are required to be significantly weaker than Piccolo and Android 18. And we are talking about like 10-12x weaker (though as SSJ1 they were 4-5x stronger). Though this is fine in the Android saga, in the Buu arc the things get complicated…

(a) SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta have SSJ2 Gohan against Cell as a reference point so at best they could have been like 2x stronger than Gohan in the Cell games. That means that their base although it increased by 3-4 times it is STILL 3-4 times weaker than the power level of Android 18 and Piccolo.

(b) Then how can Vegeta, Goku and Gohan be so confident they could take on Piccolo and 18 in the 25th TB even after agreeing NOT to go SSJ1?

(c) Goten and Trunks as Mighty Mask in their base against 18 hold their own. Yes, 18 was likely holding back a bit at that point but their difference didn't seem to be greater than it was between her and SSJ Vegeta in the Android saga. So Android 18 was likely 2x stronger than them in their base. Given that Goku and Vegeta were at least 3x stronger than their little sons it would mean that indeed Vegeta was 2x stronger than 18 in his base. Note that when Goten and Trunks turned SSJ1 against 18, Trunks fired a blast that Goten specifically urged him to not be full power as it would kill 18 - 18 was impressed– scared even when she saw it.

(d) Supreme Kai who thought nothing of Freeza was impressed by Goku’s and Vegeta’s performance in their base form against Babidi’s fighters. And don’t tell me he cannot sense power levels as he did sense Gohan’s power when he powered up to SSj2 gaaisnt Kibito. Kibito could sense the power too. Also isn't ironic given that Beerus who is immensely more power than any Kaio-shin held Freeza at higher value? Did Beerus have in mind that Freeza’s if trained could reach the power level he reached in the Resurrection of Freeza arc? Don't forget that Freeza’s final form (not the Golden) was comparable to Godly base Goku (Goku was likely 1.3-2x stronger, but not more than that) which is well beyond SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc.

(g) As an aside in the anime Gohan fought against Dabura (Dabra) in his base form for a while before turning SSJ2 and Dabra was implied to be as strong as the Supreme Kai. Also there are various anime fillers where base Goku went against opponents in his base that it wouldn’t make sense to not power up into SSJ. Like against Pikkon a guy who could one-shot Cell. Also when Goku and Vegeta paired in the first round most of the Z fighters implied it was pretty much the real final coming early – along the lines that one position was emptied for the final or so. But anyway let’s don't consider anime fillers -which is ironic as we compare it against Dragonball Super which is 90% Toei but anyway.


The alternative scenario
To overcome the aforementioned problems some people put Goku and Vegeta’s bases post RoSaT above that of Piccolo - say at 100Y or 200Y. Then by applying the "official" multipliers they end up with enormous power levels especially by the Buu arc as SSJ2 and 3. It is no wonder that some end up with fan-w*nking power levels in the realms of quintillions! But according to Dragonball Super this is not the case anyway as base Goku is not even above 100% Freeza.

Conclusion
The SSJ transformation against Freeza for first time was indeed 50x the then base (as Kaiokenx20 was on par with 50% Freeza) but the way the power-scaling progressed thereafter is so self-conflicting that it is best to avoid trying to make sense of it as if it was ever designed in its entirety upon a specific set of rules and multipliers. Because very simply it was NOT. I really want to be proven wrong on this conclusion but unfortunately I won't.

[rereboy]

YES I know what Beerus has said in Dragonball Super, implying that Goku could have not defeated Freeza in his base form HOWEVER one can argue that, at least in the original BoGs movie, Goku was suppressing his base power while Beerus made that comment.

Even Ginyu wasn't fooled by Goku's suppression and he accurately guessed Goku's power. There is absolutely no reason for Beerus to be worse than Ginyu at judging a fighter. Especially since even Kaio agrees with Beerus.

[Speedster]

YES I know what Beerus has said in Dragonball Super, implying that Goku could have not defeated Freeza in his base form HOWEVER one can argue that, at least in the original BoGs movie, Goku was suppressing his base power while Beerus made that comment.

Even Ginyu wasn't fooled by Goku's suppression and he accurately guessed Goku's power. There is absolutely no reason for Beerus to be worse than Ginyu at judging a fighter. Especially since even Kaio agrees with Beerus.

Ignoring the fact that you object on something that is exactly not the focus of this thread (the evidence in the original manga is instead as I was trying to prove that if Beerus’ comment is taken face value is actually an inconsistency to the power-scaling shown in the original manga) here is my answer.

1. True Ginyu was not fooled but still he estimated wrongly by a fairly large margin. Remember that back then we were still in an era where a difference in power level of 5,000-10,000 was VERY significant.
2. Freeza and King Cold were fooled by Trunks’ suppression and were even thinking their soldiers would be enough to kill Trunks. The fact that someone is more skilful or more powerful doesn't necessarily mean they can estimate correctly.
3. Supreme Kai was fooled by Vegeta’s suppression given how surprised he was by his performance against Pui Pui.Same for Goku against Yakkon.
4. Beerus still thought that Goku was hiding a further transformation even after Goku went all out as SSJ3.
5. In the original movie Beerus made his comment casually - he acknowledged that Goku was capable to increase his power and simply assumed he could only do so via a transformation. In other worlds he was “skipping the details”.
6. Goku’s suppressing capability improved since the Ginyu arc. Trunks was suppressing to human level power level (5) and the same goes for Goku in “Yo Son Goku and his Friends return" before powering up for Tarble. In the Ginyu arc Goku could only suppress to 5-6% of his base power level. Trunks however suppressed down to 0.00015% of his base power level.
7. We do not know which Freeza’s form Beerus had in mind. Given that Supreme Kai thought nothing of Freeza and he stated that any of the Kaioshins were capable to kill Freeza with one shot while Beerus was holding Freeza at much higher status he may had in mind what Freeza’s latent potential could be (which could brought up if he bothered to train). From a story-telling point of view this is a cue for the next movie / arc – The resurrection of Freeza.

[rereboy]

YES I know what Beerus has said in Dragonball Super, implying that Goku could have not defeated Freeza in his base form HOWEVER one can argue that, at least in the original BoGs movie, Goku was suppressing his base power while Beerus made that comment.

Even Ginyu wasn't fooled by Goku's suppression and he accurately guessed Goku's power. There is absolutely no reason for Beerus to be worse than Ginyu at judging a fighter. Especially since even Kaio agrees with Beerus.

Ignoring the fact that you object on something that is exactly not the focus of this thread (the evidence in the original manga is instead as I was trying to prove that if Beerus’ comment is taken face value is actually an inconsistency to the power-scaling shown in the original manga) here is my answer.

1. True Ginyu was not fooled but still he estimated wrongly by a fairly large margin. Remember that back then we were still in an era where a difference in power level of 5,000-10,000 was VERY significant.
2. Freeza and King Cold were fooled by Trunks’ suppression and were even thinking their soldiers would be enough to kill Trunks. The fact that someone is more skilful or more powerful doesn't necessarily mean they can estimate correctly.
3. Supreme Kai was fooled by Vegeta’s suppression given how surprised he was by his performance against Pui Pui.Same for Goku against Yakkon.
4. Beerus still thought that Goku was hiding a further transformation even after Goku went all out as SSJ3.
5. In the original movie Beerus made his comment casually - he acknowledged that Goku was capable to increase his power and simply assumed he could only do so via a transformation. In other worlds he was “skipping the details”.
6. Goku’s suppressing capability improved since the Ginyu arc. Trunks was suppressing to human level power level (5) and the same goes for Goku in “Yo Son Goku and his Friends return" before powering up for Tarble. In the Ginyu arc Goku could only suppress to 5-6% of his base power level. Trunks however suppressed down to 0.00015% of his base power level.
7. We do not know which Freeza’s form Beerus had in mind. Given that Supreme Kai thought nothing of Freeza and he stated that any of the Kaioshins were capable to kill Freeza with one shot while Beerus was holding Freeza at much higher status he may had in mind what Freeza’s latent potential could be. From a story-telling point of view this is a cue for the next movie / arc – The resurrection of Freeza.

I answered the question you made. Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza? Yes, he is, since Beerus states so, Kaio agrees with him, Goku doesn't object to that, and since even Ginyu wasn't fooled by suppression, there is no reason for Beerus to be fooled by it.

I read the rest of what you wrote but honestly it's just too convoluted. Dragon Ball is pretty straightforward. The intent behind Beerus saying that was pretty clear and there is no real reason to doubt it. We can come up with all sorts of complex alternative theories but they don't really have support in the series, they are too convoluted, and seem to be more an attempt to come up with a way to justify the result that we want than actually just follow logically what is presented in the series which is something we should never do (aka try to make the arguments justify the conclusion instead of following the arguments to come up with a conclusion).

But if you want an answer by the numbers:
1: no, Ginyu was pretty accurate. It was off by around 5%. Any more accuracy and he would be a scouter that isn't fooled by suppression.
2: Freeza and Cold can't feel Ki. They had no way to estimate his power until they actually saw him fight. Even then, they are both categorized by extreme arrogance which leads, as it was made clear, to underestimations. Ginyu didn't suffer from that and nor does Beerus.
3: Kaioshin was afraid of anything that had to do with Babidi because his magic was extremely dangerous and was able to bypass Ki power. His magic and his tricks can't be sensed or predicted like Ki can, and that's what he was really afraid of. Also Kaioshin also couldn't predict how strong the sayains were with their transformations, because they were transformations. All he could see were their bases which, following what we saw in BOG, were weaker than Freeza.
4: Because he had heard a prophecy that said that he would face a SSJG that would give him a good fight. Goku was failing to do that so Beerus wondered if he had more, which would fit what he heard.
5: I don't see how this is an argument at all. Doesn't change what he said or invalidate it. And it's simple logic that if Goku was able to beat Freeza but he is weaker in his base, he probably has a transformation or technique to increase his power.
6: Doesn't mean that would make Beerus be wrong about what he said.
7: By simple deduction, it obvious Beerus is referring to Freeza's true form. Goku surpassed Freeza's first form power with his base in the Namek arc so he would hardly need something like SSJ for Beerus really see how he could have beaten Freeza.

[Speedster]

The actual question is "Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza from the evidence shown in the original manga?" It was too long to be in the title though so you need to pay attention to how it is worded in the thread. Your answer is unacceptable as it is based on the very statement that is under dispute - Beerus' comment in BoGs. It is not based on evidence about Goku's power from the rest of the manga (the purpose of this thread). And North Kaio didn't agree with that Goku is not capable to defeat Freeza at his max base. He just confirmed that Goku is capable of transforming and that the transformation is quite a power up.


P.S: A difference of 5,000-10,000 was VERY significant in the Namek saga. See Reccome and Vegeta or Vegeta and Cui. Plus Ginyu couldn't actually sense Ki. He was still relying on his scouter to measure Goku's power level while powering up his Kaioken. His assertion that he was hiding power was merely an anticipation based on battle knowledge than actual Ki sensing.

[rereboy]

The actual question is "Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza from the evidence shown in the original manga?"

Doesn't make much sense since there is no BOG Goku in the manga, since there is no BOG in the manga...

However, if we ignore BOG, and we ask if Goku ever surpassed Freeza with his base in the manga... there is simply no way to tell from the manga. Nothing is really stated about that. We have to assume a lot to come up with any answer, so any answer, if he did or not, is pretty much acceptable.

[Speedster]

Ignoring BOG, there is simply no way to tell from the manga. Nothing is really stated about that. We have to assume a lot to come up with any answer, so any answer, if he did or not, is pretty much acceptable.

No in the original manga there is a VERY clear statement: Vegeta's that he could beat anyone (including Piccolo and 18 who were stronger than Freeza) in his base in the 25th TB. Same goes for Goku's and Gohan's confidence. And nothing that happened in that arc contradicts this statement either.

(And Goku at the start of BoGs is a reference to Buu arc Goku as the whole point was showing that by the Buu arc in the manga base Goku was definitely stronger than Freeza)

[Tectorman]

Ignoring BOG, there is simply no way to tell from the manga. Nothing is really stated about that. We have to assume a lot to come up with any answer, so any answer, if he did or not, is pretty much acceptable.

No in the original manga there is a VERY clear statement: Vegeta's that he could beat anyone (including Piccolo and 18 who were stronger than Freeza) in his base in the 25th TB. Same goes for Goku's and Gohan's confidence. And nothing that happened in that arc contradicts this statement either.

(And Goku at the start of BoGs is a reference to Buu arc Goku as the whole point was showing that by the Buu arc in the manga base Goku was definitely stronger than Freeza)

Vegeta's agreement to forgo SSJ in the Budokai was never a condition he was going to hold to.

See Goten going SSJ ("Kakarrot, your son cheated!") versus Trunks going SSJ ("I guess my son just comes from better stock."). It's kind of hard to take Vegeta's commitment to that restriction seriously when we already see him not doing so.

He was going to pay attention to that so-called restriction right up to the moment it no longer suited him to do so. And considering his first opponent would have been Goku, who was not on the plane and never heard Gohan's request that they not go SSJ nor agreed to abide by it, it would no longer suit Vegeta precisely when Goku went SSJ, which would not have been long in coming.

[Speedster]

Vegeta's agreement to forgo SSJ in the Budokai was never a condition he was going to hold to.

See Goten going SSJ ("Kakarrot, your son cheated!") versus Trunks going SSJ ("I guess my son just comes from better stock."). It's kind of hard to take Vegeta's commitment to that restriction seriously when we already see him not doing so.

He was going to pay attention to that so-called restriction right up to the moment it no longer suited him to do so. And considering his first opponent would have been Goku, who was not on the plane and never heard Gohan's request that they not go SSJ nor agreed to abide by it, it would no longer suit Vegeta precisely when Goku went SSJ1, which would not have been long in coming.

No when Vegeta agreed not to go SSJ1 he specifically said – “If nobody is a Super Saiyan, we’ll be on equal terms. I will still have the upper hand”. And his reaction about Goten cheating by going SSJ means that himself and his son were indeed up to that point respecting this self-imposed constraint and were not intending to go SSJ1. Goku’s and Gohan’s confidence all add up as well and Goku WAS informed about the constraint too.

[FoolsGil]

I disagree with Beers' assessment. When Goku first fought Freeza, He and Freeza at 25% were about even. Since then he trained for the Androids, trained for Cell, trained for seven years dead, and at the least sustained his power level up until Beers came along. with time in the ROSAT that means 12 years of constant training.

And let's say that even with all that, Goku could only reach up to 50% of Freeza's full power: Kaioken is not a transformation. What would follow would be a trial of endurance, who's body will give out first because they can't handle their own multipliers on their body.

[Kamiccolo9]

I disagree with Beers' assessment. When Goku first fought Freeza, He and Freeza at 25% were about even. Since then he trained for the Androids, trained for Cell, trained for seven years dead, and at the least sustained his power level up until Beers came along. with time in the ROSAT that means 12 years of constant training.

And let's say that even with all that, Goku could only reach up to 50% of Freeza's full power: Kaioken is not a transformation. What would follow would be a trial of endurance, who's body will give out first because they can't handle their own multipliers on their body.

He and Freeza at about 4 percent were about even, not 25%.

[rereboy]

No in the original manga there is a VERY clear statement: Vegeta's that he could beat anyone (including Piccolo and 18 who were stronger than Freeza) in his base in the 25th TB. Same goes for Goku's and Gohan's confidence. And nothing that happened in that arc contradicts this statement either.

(And Goku at the start of BoGs is a reference to Buu arc Goku as the whole point was showing that by the Buu arc in the manga base Goku was definitely stronger than Freeza)

We know for a fact that Gohan at the 25th tournament was weaker than he was at the Cell games, while Piccolo wasn't that far off from SSJ Vegeta and SSJ Trunks in the Cell games. Considering that there is a huge difference between base power and SSJ power, that would mean that if Vegeta surpassed #18 and Piccolo with just his base, then Vegeta's base should be WAYYY stronger than Gohan's base, and by extension, Vegeta's full power should also be WAYY stronger than Gohan's. However, based on what happens when they go after Babibi, we know that Vegeta is stronger than Gohan, but not by that much.

Furthermore, what Vegeta states, he states it when Piccolo is not present, without there being a indication that he actually was aware that Piccolo would participate, and without us knowing if he was actually intending to keep what he said against someone who happens to not be a saiyan since that agreement is only reasonable in a saiyan versus saiyan fight because only in such a fight would both fighters be having the same handicap.

If you want to base on your opinion on that, you can and it's fine because, like I said, it can go either way, but there is no point in trying to argue that it's all so very clear and final because of that because it really isn't.

[Pantalones]

a) Piccolo (before fusing with Kami) needed to be weaker than base Goku – say 75% of base Goku. That because base Goku was ahead of Piccolo in the Freeza saga and he stayed ahead of him in the Android saga. There is no reason not to, given that he trained equally as hard.

This assumption is your main problem here. Piccolo had just fused with Nail the last time he and Goku were compared -- Nail, who presumably had undergone the same "potential unlock" process that Guru performed on Krillin and Gohan. So Piccolo now has far greater potential for training increases than he would've had without the fusion (since he basically has the potential power of two Namekians now rather than just one), and may even be experiencing the same gradual potential unlocking that boosted Krillin from 13,000ish up to 75,000ish by the end of the Freeza saga.

Between those factors increasing his potential and growth rate, and the fact that he spent 3 years training with Goku (who, at the beginning of the training at least, would be stronger than him in base form... and even by the end should be significantly stronger in Super Saiyan) and Gohan (who was capable of outputting even more power than base Goku when he got angry, so he should be pretty strong himself by this point) -- training with a strong sparring partner really helps you get stronger, as we see later on with Goku and Gohan sticking together during their year-in-a-day training vs. Vegeta and Trunks mostly training separately -- there's no reason why Piccolo's power shouldn't have shot way up rather than staying in the "no more than 75% of base Goku's power" range.

Krillin even compares Piccolo's power to the Super Saiyans, being shocked that anyone who's not a Super Saiyan could be that strong. Does that sound like the kind of thing he'd say about someone who was only 75% of base Goku's power? 75% of Super Saiyan Goku's power, maybe -- but base, no way. Considering Vegeta was around two-thirds of base Goku's power against Freeza and Piccolo was maybe around half, it doesn't make any sense that Krillin would be that impressed by someone who wasn't even on the level of the base Saiyans of the time.

So yeah, Piccolo post-Android-training was not weaker than base Goku.

After Imperfect Cell fired his Kamehameha against Piccolo he explained he had cells from Goku from 3 years earlier. Piccolo remarked that that’s why it was soooo weaker than expected as Goku grew way much stronger during their 3 years of training. How could he say that Goku grew much stronger if he raised his power level from 3.5 to 5 million and the reference frame of power levels in the Android saga is in the 100s? Cell was not a Super Saiyan neither did he have the equivalent golden aura when he fired that Kamehameha.

This isn't a matter of "how strong Goku was when his cells were taken," it's a matter of the Kamehameha technique itself being improved since then -- just like how Goku took Roshi's original Kamehameha and upgraded it to create the Super Kamehameha by the end of Dragonball, and throughout Z the Super Kamehameha basically replaces the "standard" Kamehameha from before. It's not ever outright stated (though this scene implies it), but I think Goku continued to improved upon the Kamehameha as he became even stronger -- which is why he just uses stronger and stronger Kamehamehas throughout the series, while meanwhile Piccolo and Vegeta replace their old techniques with new and more powerful ones instead of just making infinitely stronger updates of the same technique. Cell is using an old version of the Kamehameha, rather than the stronger ones Goku had developed over the past few years of training (which we later see are capable of blowing Perfect Cell in half even when Goku is clearly weaker than Cell!), so the amount of power that's added by the technique when Imperfect Cell uses it isn't up to par with the Android Saga characters. Presumably, Cell didn't pick up the "current" Kamehameha until after experiencing it himself in the fight with Goku. Since he has Goku's cells it'd make sense that he can also pick up techniques super fast just like Goku does.

Also, I'm pretty sure Goku's cells were taken during his battle with Vegeta, not during Freeza and Cold's arrival 3 years before the Android saga. So even if Goku's power at the time the cells were taken was the main factor here, Imperfect Cell's Kamehameha came from a Goku with a power of 8000, not 3,000,000+.

[Darkprince410]

7. We do not know which Freeza’s form Beerus had in mind. Given that Supreme Kai thought nothing of Freeza and he stated that any of the Kaioshins were capable to kill Freeza with one shot while Beerus was holding Freeza at much higher status he may had in mind what Freeza’s latent potential could be (which could brought up if he bothered to train). From a story-telling point of view this is a cue for the next movie / arc – The resurrection of Freeza.

In both Battle of Gods and Super, Beerus explicitly saw that Goku fought against Freeza's final form (having viewed it from Whis's staff), so that's obviously the form he was basing his statement on.

After Imperfect Cell fired his Kamehameha against Piccolo he explained he had cells from Goku from 3 years earlier. Piccolo remarked that that’s why it was soooo weaker than expected as Goku grew way much stronger during their 3 years of training. How could he say that Goku grew much stronger if he raised his power level from 3.5 to 5 million and the reference frame of power levels in the Android saga is in the 100s? Cell was not a Super Saiyan neither did he have the equivalent golden aura when he fired that Kamehameha.

Only Freeza and Cold's genetic material were taken from three years earlier. Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo's genetic material were taken from the battle with Vegeta.

Spoiler:

[Tectorman]

No when Vegeta agreed not to go SSJ1 he specifically said – “If nobody is a Super Saiyan, we’ll be on equal terms. I will still have the upper hand”. And his reaction about Goten cheating by going SSJ means that himself and his son were indeed up to that point respecting this self-imposed constraint and were not intending to go SSJ1. Goku’s and Gohan’s confidence all add up as well and Goku WAS informed about the constraint too.

What about Krillin?

According to Vegeta, "'we'll' be on equal terms". Doesn't "we" include Krillin?

As of the Cell Games, Krillin was nowhere near either Piccolo nor the androids. In the seven years since, he did no training of his own, except for the one month's worth of "catch-up" training prior to the tournament, similar to Gohan. If Gohan, starting out much stronger, slacked off for seven years, trained for one month, and still couldn't get all the way back up to his old levels of power, then how did Krillin, doing the same thing, soar all the way up to Piccolo/Android 18/Frieza levels of power?

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8xcOT05EJ0

This Gives PROOF to end the debate once and for all.

[Darkprince410]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8xcOT05EJ0

This Gives PROOF to end the debate once and for all.

Except it really doesn't.

Only in the dub is it said that the Kaioushin were a thousand times stronger than Freeza. In the original anime and manga, it was just strong enough to defeat him with a single blow, which is a far, far cry from a thousand times stronger.

Kaioshin: “No, Vegeta. At the time, there were 5 Kaioshins. Any one of them was good enough to defeat someone of Freeza’s level in a single blow…Out of those Kaioshins, 4 were killed by Majin Boo.”

Him using the dub for evidence is no better than saying that Bardock created the Power Ball because he was a brilliant scientist. It's inaccurate information, and not valid evidence for this sort of thing. At the end of the day, there is nothing within the manga that indicates that Beerus's statement about Goku is inaccurate, regardless of whether he was only taking into account Goku's suppressed strength or somehow able to sense his maximum battle power.

[Hero]

I never had a problem with the base saiyans being weaker than Frieza. In fact, it kinda made sense to me. SSJ is needed to beat Frieza, SSJ2 is needed to beat Cell and SSJ3 is needed to beat Buu. As for the gaps in the Android arc being too big, they don't need to be. The Namek Saga for example shows that you don't need to be much stronger power-level wise compared to your opponent to beat them.

Something like this can work easily:
SSJ Goku (Namek): 150
SSJ Goku (Yardarat): 200
SSJ Goku (Androids): 300
Android 17: 450
Android 16: 675 (keeping a 1.5x gap which is stomp territory)
Semi Cell: 1,000
SSJG2 Vegeta: 1,500
SSJ Goku (Cell Games): 3,600
SSJ Gohan (Cell Games): 4,200
SSJ Goku (Buu): 4,500
SSJ Goku (BoG): 5,000

5,000,000,000 divided by 50 = 100,000,000 so it all works. And this was made in 2 minutes too.

[Cetra]

Does not make any real sense to me. Vegeta being confident always gets explained away with the infamous "he was bluffing" as if that's the answer to everything and Lazuli having a very hard time with Trunks and Goten also is another point.

[Darkprince410]

Does not make any real sense to me. Vegeta being confident always gets explained away with the infamous "he was bluffing" as if that's the answer to everything and Lazuli having a very hard time with Trunks and Goten also is another point.

It's not a matter of "bluffing" so much as his usual arrogance, and he doesn't necessarily know if Piccolo or #18 are even competing. As for #18 having a difficult time with Trunks and Goten, there's no indication she was going all out, given that she, up until the time that she saw them transform, just thought they were a normal, albeit strong, human.