Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Cetra]

there's no indication she was going all out, given that she, up until the time that she saw them transform, just thought they were a normal, albeit strong, human.

Just as there is no indication that she was not. Also - she did not hold back her power because she was so honorable but she still did hold back her power so much and decreased it to under-Freeza level, so that she struggled for ... reasons? Okay. OR - and that is more likely, Beerus was either wrong because Gokuu was holding back (which was actually normal during his training) or it is just an error.

There is also no indication what people say about Vegeta either just to defend another inconsistency. Those things are possibilties. But with the information given less likely ones.

[LightBing]

#18 was holding back, see these quotes:

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P8.4, P9.1-7
Context: as Trunks and Goten fight No.18 in their Mighty Mask costume
Trunks: “Da-dammit! We can’t win like this!”
Goten: “Let’s turn into Super Saiyans, Trunks!”
Trunks: “That's it! We’ve got this thing on, so she won’t be able to tell who we are…Alright! Shall we turn into [Super Saiyans]?”
Goten: “Yeah!”
No.18: “…He really is a weird bastard…His arms and legs are extremely small for his body…And he’s so unusually strong…”
*they become Super Saiyans*
No.18: “!!”
Trunks: “Either way, we’re at a disadvantage in this getup, so we’ve got no choice but to settle this with a kiai cannon!”
Goten: “Eh! But will she be alright?...”
Trunks: “Don’t worry, she won’t die if we do it appropriately. She’s No.18…”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P10.1-2
Context: as Trunks prepares to fire a ki blast at No.18
No.18: “…I see…Super Saiyan, huh?...I finally know your identity, boys…”
Goten: “Don’t do it at full force!”
Trunks: “I know, I know!”

Chapter: 453 (DBZ 259), P12.4, P13.1
Context: after Trunks’ ki blast explodes
No.18: “Yo-you’ve got to be kidding…That energy bullet had absolutely incredible speed and destructive power…Co-could it be that those squirts have outrageous power?…This is dangerous! I’ve got to settle this fight soon!”

She was trying to know who was Mighty Mask. She got sure it was the kids when they turned Super Saiyan, with them then being superior to her.

Vegeta was just being his usually self when he made the statement.

[Speedster]

In both Battle of Gods and Super, Beerus explicitly saw that Goku fought against Freeza's final form (having viewed it from Whis's staff), so that's obviously the form he was basing his statement on.

What Beerus saw was an image of final form Freeza. And Freeza in his final form in Resurrection of F (before he turned golden) was way much stronger than he used to be in the Namek saga and though not as strong as godly base Goku he was comparable within the same order of magnitude – perhaps 1.5-2x weaker than godly base Goku. As I said earlier perhaps Beerus made that comment with Freeza’s latent potential unlocked in mind. Remember that in the original movie he said he was going to kill him next time they met – and one can reason that it was because he considered him as some kind of threat. If he was not aware of Freeza’s latent potential he would think nothing of him (like Supreme Kai).

Only Freeza and Cold's genetic material were taken from three years earlier. Goku, Vegeta, and Piccolo's genetic material were taken from the battle with Vegeta.

True, Cell says that but Piccolo in the bottom right panel says: “Goku’s cells from 3 years ago? That is why that Kamehameha was so weak”. Even if Piccolo was confused he was chronologically comparing with Goku of three years earlier i.e when they started training together. But anyway I will accept that he actually referred to Vegeta saga Goku (as Cell did) as that is the most logical thing.

Something like this can work easily:
SSJ Goku (Namek): 150
SSJ Goku (Yardarat): 200
SSJ Goku (Androids): 300
Android 17: 450
Android 16: 675 (keeping a 1.5x gap which is stomp territory)
Semi Cell: 1,000
SSJG2 Vegeta: 1,500
SSJ Goku (Cell Games): 3,600
SSJ Gohan (Cell Games): 4,200
SSJ Goku (Buu): 4,500
SSJ Goku (BoG): 5,000

5,000,000,000 divided by 50 = 100,000,000 so it all works. And this was made in 2 minutes too.

It is obvious that you only spent 2mins…. because you didn't notice that it is similar to my own list in the original post (just substitute Y=4 or 5) and that then I spent the rest of the post explaining the problems with this (2minutes-to be conceived) power scaling. The most fundamental problem is that base Saiyans are clearly portrayed as at least comparable to Piccolo and #18 who are known to be stronger than Freeza. And there is no way in this sort of scaling (where a 2x difference is massive) Piccolo and 18 to be 3x-5x stronger than base Goku/Vegeta. Also given that base Goku/Vegeta didn't get much stronger than Gohan in the Cell games and that Gohan slacked off during the 7 year gap the difference must have been made in RoSaT.

This assumption is your main problem here. Piccolo had just fused with Nail the last time he and Goku were compared -- Nail, who presumably had undergone the same "potential unlock" process that Guru performed on Krillin and Gohan. So Piccolo now has far greater potential for training increases than he would've had without the fusion (since he basically has the potential power of two Namekians now rather than just one), and may even be experiencing the same gradual potential unlocking that boosted Krillin from 13,000ish up to 75,000ish by the end of the Freeza saga.

Between those factors increasing his potential and growth rate, and the fact that he spent 3 years training with Goku (who, at the beginning of the training at least, would be stronger than him in base form... and even by the end should be significantly stronger in Super Saiyan) and Gohan (who was capable of outputting even more power than base Goku when he got angry, so he should be pretty strong himself by this point) -- training with a strong sparring partner really helps you get stronger, as we see later on with Goku and Gohan sticking together during their year-in-a-day training vs. Vegeta and Trunks mostly training separately -- there's no reason why Piccolo's power shouldn't have shot way up rather than staying in the "no more than 75% of base Goku's power" range.

Your assertion that Piccolo has greater growth factor than Goku because he fused with Nail is baseless as we have seen Kamiccolo training in RoSaT and after a year he was well inferior to SSJ1 Vegeta despite starting from a higher power level than SSJ1 Vegeta started. And Vegeta didn't spar with anyone. Besides Goku was stated many times to grow his strength exponentially. That means proportional to his CURRENT power level. Cell says that Vegeta, Piccolo (post RoSaT) and Trunks combined are weaker than Goku.

Krillin even compares Piccolo's power to the Super Saiyans, being shocked that anyone who's not a Super Saiyan could be that strong. Does that sound like the kind of thing he'd say about someone who was only 75% of base Goku's power? 75% of Super Saiyan Goku's power, maybe -- but base, no way. Considering Vegeta was around two-thirds of base Goku's power against Freeza and Piccolo was maybe around half, it doesn't make any sense that Krillin would be that impressed by someone who wasn't even on the level of the base Saiyans of the time.

That is actually a further reason why turning SSJ1 is no longer x50 multiplier after the first time it happened and that there was a much greater increase in Goku’s base form instead. In other words a much better power scaling explanation would be that SSJ1 is a smaller multiplier and the base increases by much more. Then when the Androids appeared at the start of the Android arc Piccolo (before fusing with Kami) could be 65 million, base Goku and Vegeta could perhaps be 78 million and as SSJ1 to be 225 million. It makes much more sense Goku after 4 years of training (some even argue it was 5) to have grown from 3 to 78 million than go from 3 million to 5 million especially given the power level increase abuse in the base form we saw towards the end of the Namek saga.

---------------------------------------
It should be obvious by Dragonball Super that turning SSJ is no longer a 50x boost upon the base. You may argue this is because it is godly base now but it makes much more sense to say that the SSJ multiplier (apart from the Namek saga) was never portrayed as such a huge multiplier all along. Especially compared to going from SSJ1 to SSJ2 and from SSJ2 to SSJ3. All look kind of the same order of magnitude increases ESPECIALLY in the Anime.

A better scheme could be SSJ1=base+m*boost. Then the more you train you increase the base and you can also unlock greater SSJ boosts.

For example
in the Freeza arc:
base=A, m=1, boost =49A. Hence SSJ1=50A (for A= 3million then SSJ1=150million)
in the Android arc
base=26A, m=1, boost=49A. Hence SSJ1=75A (for A= 3million then SSJ1=225 million)


Post RoSaT: Then when they trained in RoSaT they increased A and tapped into a greater SSJ power. They increased their base too.

For post-RoSaT Vegeta it was m=3. He also increased his base by about 2x. So
Base=53A, m=2, boost=49A. Hence SSJ1=200A (if A=3 million then SSJ1 Vegeta=600 million).

For post-RoSaT Goku it was m=5. He also increased the base by 2.5x. So
base=75A (which is 25% higher than SSJ1 in the Freeza arc) and his SSJ1=320A (if A=3million then SSJ1 Goku=960 million)

With this scheme turning SSJ is effectively a x4 multiplier increase upon the base. Which in Revival of F works well. Godly base Goku was a ‘2’ relative to Beerus and an ‘8’ as Super Saiyan Blue.

[Tectorman]

Also - she did not hold back her power because she was so honorable but she still did hold back her power so much and decreased it to under-Freeza level, so that she struggled for ... reasons? Okay.

It could be due to her desire to not outright kill the father of her child.

Again, the elephant in the room here is Krillin. As I see it, there are three possibilities. Either,

1) Somehow, Krillin is on equal terms with Android 18 (that is to say, he's way stronger than Frieza), and got that way after having previously not being that strong thanks to his strict regimen of not training at all for seven years and then doing the training equivalent of cramming for one month.

2) Android 18 was already, before Gohan ever mentioned anything about the Saiyans not going SSJ, going to hold back to near Krillin's level. And for Vegeta to make the statement he made, he would have to be privy to 18 or Krillin having announced she was going to do that (probably an off-panel conversation).

3) Vegeta was not including Krillin in his use of the word "we". Except, if that's the case, then we can also make the argument that he wasn't including Android 18 in his use of the word "we". I mean, why exactly is the word "we" allowed to exclude one character but not another?

Three possibilities, any of which might be the case, but you know which one I don't find to be likely?

"Krillin > Frieza". I don't see it.

[Darkprince410]

As I said earlier perhaps Beerus made that comment with Freeza’s latent potential unlocked in mind. Remember that in the original movie he said he was going to kill him next time they met – and one can reason that it was because he considered him as some kind of threat. If he was not aware of Freeza’s latent potential he would think nothing of him (like Supreme Kai).

No, Beerus specifically indicated that he found Freeza an annoying upstart and didn't care for his attitude, and was going to kill him because of that. Nothing is remotely suggested that he was going to kill him because he considered him any kind of potential threat.

True, Cell says that but Piccolo in the bottom right panel says: “Goku’s cells from 3 years ago? That is why that Kamehameha was so weak”. Even if Piccolo was confused he was chronologically comparing with Goku of three years earlier i.e when they started training together. But anyway I will accept that he actually referred to Vegeta saga Goku (as Cell did) as that is the most logical thing.

No, he doesn't.

Cell: “Son Goku…Piccolo…and Vegeta’s cells were collected during the fight when Vegeta and co. came to Earth…”
Piccolo: “…Goku, from back then huh?...So that’s why your Kamehameha just now wasn’t anything special…”

Piccolo specifically notes that Goku's came from "back then", in reference to Cell's comment about them being taken from when Vegeta and Nappa came to Earth. Nothing about three years ago.

Your assertion that Piccolo has greater growth factor than Goku because he fused with Nail is baseless as we have seen Kamiccolo training in RoSaT and after a year he was well inferior to SSJ1 Vegeta despite starting from a higher power level than SSJ1 Vegeta started. And Vegeta didn't spar with anyone. Besides Goku was stated many times to grow his strength exponentially. That means proportional to his CURRENT power level. Cell says that Vegeta, Piccolo (post RoSaT) and Trunks combined are weaker than Goku.

You do realize that Piccolo had the benefit of training with Super Saiya-jin Goku, not simply base Goku, during their three years together, which means that Piccolo's increases would end up being far more extensive than Goku's, given that Goku's increases would be divided down into his base form (1/50th of his net increase). Both Piccolo and Goku could have increased their battle power by 100,000,000 units, but Goku's would have been a 50th of that due to those increases being in his Super Saiya-jin form.

[Speedster]

Also - she did not hold back her power because she was so honorable but she still did hold back her power so much and decreased it to under-Freeza level, so that she struggled for ... reasons? Okay.

It could be due to her desire to not outright kill the father of her child.

Again, the elephant in the room here is Krillin.

Krillin was simply ignored as a weakling.

[Speedster]

No, Beerus specifically indicated that he found Freeza an annoying upstart and didn't care for his attitude, and was going to kill him because of that. Nothing is remotely suggested that he was going to kill him because he considered him any kind of potential threat.

You do realise that Beerus was surprised that Freeza was defeated, don't you? Freeza's power level in the Namek saga was tiny compared to Beerus - Beerus shouldn't have hold Freeza at such a high strength status given Supreme Kai pretty much says Freeza is a weakling compared to himself.

You do realize that Piccolo had the benefit of training with Super Saiya-jin Goku, not simply base Goku, during their three years together, which means that Piccolo's increases would end up being far more extensive than Goku's, given that Goku's increases would be divided down into his base form (1/50th of his net increase). Both Piccolo and Goku could have increased their battle power by 100,000,000 units, but Goku's would have been a 50th of that due to those increases being in his Super Saiya-jin form.

You have no proof that Piccolo sparred with SSJ1 Goku. For all the scenes we saw, Goku was sparring with Piccolo in base. Besides your whole argument is invalid anyway since as I explained earlier this logic falls flat during the RoSaT training. See SSJ1 Vegeta Vs Kamiccolo increase while sparring with no-one. If Piccolo's net increase was anywhere near x50 that of Goku or Vegeta, then given that he entered the RoSaT at a stronger form he would have been at the very least 100x stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta when he completed his RoSaT training. He was NOT. In fact he was like 2x weaker.

[ZombieVito]

You have no proof that Piccolo sparred with SSJ1 Goku.

Spoiler:

[Darkprince410]

You do realise that Beerus was surprised that Freeza was defeated, don't you? Freeza's power level in the Namek saga was tiny compared to Beerus - Beerus shouldn't have hold Freeza at such a high strength status given Supreme Kai pretty much says Freeza is a weakling compared to himself.

He specifically comments that he's surprised that a Saiya-jin defeated Freeza, not that Freeza was beaten period.

You have no proof that Piccolo sparred with SSJ1 Goku. For all the scenes we saw, Goku was sparring with Piccolo in base. Besides your whole argument is invalid anyway since as I explained earlier this logic falls flat during the RoSaT training. See SSJ1 Vegeta Vs Kamiccolo increase while sparring with no-one. If Piccolo's net increase was anywhere near x50 that of Goku or Vegeta, then given that he entered the RoSaT at a stronger form he would have been at the very least 100x stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta when he completed his RoSaT training. He was NOT. In fact he was like 2x weaker.

The only scene we're shown in the manga of them training was Piccolo against Super Saiya-jin Goku, as Zombie posted.

[Kaboom]

Beerus plainly says, in no uncertain terms in at least 2 or 3 different versions of the same scene, that Goku could not defeat Freeza without gaining power by going Super Saiyan. This is a direct power statement, and very likely from Toriyama's own writing.

It is not contradicted at any later point in the movies or in Super thus far, despite many opportunities for that to happen. If it's not true, and is not revealed as untrue, then it has no reason being in the scene. There's nothing in prior material that directly contradicts it, and anything that "implies" to the contrary can be easily explained in other ways.

The line means what it means, and it is what it is. Ignore it if you want, discount the movies and Super as "non-canon" because of it if you want, or whatever. But there's no point trying to undermine it, or pretend it means something else, or claim that it's outright wrong.

[Speedster]

The only scene we're shown in the manga of them training was Piccolo against Super Saiya-jin Goku, as Zombie posted.

That was NOT a legit scene from a manga panel. It was a cover page. In similar pages we also saw Goku driving a helicopter. Should we accept it as canon? And that cover page shows Piccolo in weights against SSJ1 Goku. If we accept it as a legit sparring then Goku should had been over-suppressing his power level like he was doing during the Cell games.

He specifically comments that he's surprised that a Saiya-jin defeated Freeza, not that Freeza was beaten period.

No it is more than obvious he had Freeza as a point of reference for strength. And we know this as he comments when Goku went SSJ1 that “beating Freeza is as far as you can go”. Not to mention that it was as if SSJ1 Goku was still comparable to Freeza. Doesn't surprise you that when Beerus meets a bunch of other guys that were all supposedly much stronger than Freeza (Piccolo and 18) he thinks nothing of it? The sad truth is that the two movies and Super don't give and flying f*** about power scaling. Especially with the 1.3 million power level line (a power level that even second form Freeza possessed), Piccolo struggling against Shisami, Piccolo having the same effect in battle against Freeza’s soldiers as Roshi and Beerus using 10% of his power against enraged Vegeta and likely 2% against SSJ3 Goku while the result of fusion of Goku and Vegeta would be less than 60% of Beerus. And don't tell me that Shishami trained with Freeza for 4 months and went from 30,000 to 600 million (a 20,000x increase) or that Shishami never trained in his life beforehand or he has the same latent potential as Freeza. Because it was specifically stated during his introduction alongside Tagoma that they REACHED a power level rivalling Zarbon and Dodoria (so they used to have even lower power levels and increased them through training) and it doesn't make any sense if he was THAT strong for them to resurrect Freeza in the first place. And why didn't the rest of the fighters didn't get strong at all?

It is clear as day that they forgot that Piccolo was above 100% final form Freeza and subsequently they had no problem placing base Saiyans below Freeza too – contradicting of course the original manga in the process. No matter what we say here it is nothing more than attempts to justify blatant mistakes.

[Darkprince410]

That was NOT a legit scene from a manga panel. It was a cover page. In similar pages we also saw Goku driving a helicopter. Should we accept it as canon? And that cover page shows Piccolo in weights against SSJ1 Goku. If we accept it as a legit sparring then Goku should had been over-suppressing his power level like he was doing during the Cell games.

Most all those cover pages, especially later on, changed from being "nonsense" scenes to ones relevant and reflecting what is happening in the manga. Gohan being confronted by Vegeta about the Namekian Dragon Ball he was trying to hide, Vegeta fighting against Cell's 2nd Form, etc. So in that situation, the only example of their training we see in the manga, we know that Piccolo sparred against Super Saiya-jin Goku.

No it is more than obvious he had Freeza as a point of reference for strength. And we know this as he comments when Goku went SSJ1 that “beating Freeza is as far as you can go”. Not to mention that it was as if SSJ1 Goku was still comparable to Freeza.

He's using Freeza as a point of reference because Freeza's the only one that he could relate to that he knows Goku knows. He has no idea that Goku's encountered the Kaioushin before, but he knows he's encountered and beaten Freeza before, so it's poignant to use him as reference.

Especially with the 1.3 million power level line (a power level that even second form Freeza possessed),

You're looking at an individual who has never trained before in his life taking a guess as to how powerful he thinks he'll become after training. He has no frame of reference as to how much power he has locked away, so there's no reason to assume that his estimate would be remotely accurate. Now, it would be an issue if, after his training, he had said his battle power was that high, but the fact that he made that estimation before he began his training leaves it very possible that he just screwed up his estimate.

Beerus using 10% of his power against enraged Vegeta and likely 2% against SSJ3 Goku while the result of fusion of Goku and Vegeta would be less than 60% of Beerus.

You're just completely and randomly assuming that he used that much against Goku, when it's just as easily possible that he didn't even use close to 1% of his strength. The Ssj2 Vegeta spike causing him to go up to around 10% isn't anything contradictory to the outcome of a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, because that power boost wasn't even remotely considered by Goku at the time (as Vegeta had never experienced any kind of jump like that at all, much less that powerful).

Because it was specifically stated during his introduction alongside Tagoma that they REACHED a power level rivalling Zarbon and Dodoria (so they used to have even lower power levels and increased them through training)

Except it's not battle power that's mentioned. The original dialogue was actually in reference to rank in Freeza's organization, and people just misinterpreted that as being related to physical strength, with the dub not helping the situation.

[Speedster]

Most all those cover pages, especially later on, changed from being "nonsense" scenes to ones relevant and reflecting what is happening in the manga. Gohan being confronted by Vegeta about the Namekian Dragon Ball he was trying to hide, Vegeta fighting against Cell's 2nd Form, etc. So in that situation, the only example of their training we see in the manga, we know that Piccolo sparred against Super Saiya-jin Goku.

Even in the latter stages there are various out-of-place cover pages. More importantly in the anime they created filler about the training and they didn't use that cover page of the manga which given that the anime expands on the manga material it should had been used …. if it was legit. The other examples you gave all made it to the anime.

He's using Freeza as a point of reference because Freeza's the only one that he could relate to that he knows Goku knows. He has no idea that Goku's encountered the Kaioushin before, but he knows he's encountered and beaten Freeza before, so it's poignant to use him as reference.

You said that he didn't use Freeza as a point of strength reference and I corrected you.

You're looking at an individual who has never trained before in his life taking a guess as to how powerful he thinks he'll become after training. He has no frame of reference as to how much power he has locked away, so there's no reason to assume that his estimate would be remotely accurate. Now, it would be an issue if, after his training, he had said his battle power was that high, but the fact that he made that estimation before he began his training leaves it very possible that he just screwed up his estimate.

Yet …
1. It was Freeza the one that said that his power level in second form was over 1 million. And don't tell me now that he meant 100 million!
2. His assertion about the amount of Goku’s reserves during their battle on Namek and that all he needed was 50% of his maximum to defeat him was spot on. So he could compare others' exhibited strength against his own strength.
3. He decided to train after learning that Goku defeated Buu. And purpose of his training was to get at least stronger than Buu (it would be pointless otherwise given his intention was to defeat Goku). He knew from his father that Majin Buu was stronger than his 100% final form which in turn he knew how much stronger it was relative to the “over 1 million” of his second form. So targeting to at least surpass Buu should had been a target at least 10x above his 100% final form. Even if he only referred to his first form that is only 2.6x increase and still not enough at all.

And isn't it ironic that you suggest that Beerus saying something is a fact and should not be interpreted otherwise as it is apparently the intention of the creators; yet Freeza saying something should be disregarded because it might be interpreted otherwise. Isn't it the intention of the creators anymore?

You're just completely and randomly assuming that he used that much against Goku, when it's just as easily possible that he didn't even use close to 1% of his strength. The Ssj2 Vegeta spike causing him to go up to around 10% isn't anything contradictory to the outcome of a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, because that power boost wasn't even remotely considered by Goku at the time (as Vegeta had never experienced any kind of jump like that at all, much less that powerful).

You missed the point. First I didn't say that Goku considered Vegeta's enraged power boost when he mentioned fusion. Don't put words in my mouth. What I meant is that Beerus compared enraged Vegeta (someone against whom he required to use 10% of his power) with SSJ3 Goku. The way he compared them was not in a way suggesting an enormous power difference (and please don't play with the words again and tell me he compared level of 'entertainment' as we know what 'entertainment' for Beerus means). The manga makes very clear that a difference of 5x in power level is chaotic- even 1.5x is large. Therefore it definitely couldn't be larger than 5x. The most logical thing to say is that enraged SSJ2 Vegeta is 7% of Beerus and Goku 1.5% . Perhaps 5% and 1% if you like or at most a 10x difference like 8% and 0.8%. Trust me, it really cannot be a larger gap - you know there is a concept called "order of magnitude" …. Wikipedia link here. So we can confidently put SSJ3 Goku around 0.7-2% of Beerus. Then if fusion was indeed such a power up as the power-scaling you support suggests(where base Saiyans are below Freeza), then SSJ2 Gogeta/Vegetto would definitely be more than 60% of Beerus (which was what SSJG Goku was).

Except it's not battle power that's mentioned. The original dialogue was actually in reference to rank in Freeza's organization, and people just misinterpreted that as being related to physical strength, with the dub not helping the situation.

Well, post in Japanese what he said exactly along with the direct English translation and prove me wrong. Otherwise I can only accept what was translated in English in more than one resources. In any case Shishami needed to be weaker than Namek saga first form Freeza which is an outcry from Piccolo’s power level by the Buu saga - so he would still need at the very least to increase his power by 1000x. An enormous increase that makes absolutely zero sense.

[Hitiro]

PROBLEMS
Problem 1
Android 19 and 20 need to have a big power level difference amongst them while it is implied they are more or less comparable.

A variance around 25% has shown to be a big power difference in the story so I don't see why this is a problem.

Premises:
a) Piccolo (before fusing with Kami) needed to be weaker than base Goku – say 75% of base Goku. That because base Goku was ahead of Piccolo in the Freeza saga and he stayed ahead of him in the Android saga. There is no reason not to, given that he trained equally as hard.

Why would Piccolo necessarily have to be weaker than Goku's base by the time the Android Saga arrived? Piccolo was over 1 million in the Freeza Saga and by the Daizenshuu 7 power levels chart Goku was only 3 million. Piccolo could have caught up and surpassed base Goku. Especially when training with SSJ Goku.

b) Piccolo was stronger than Android 20 (Dr Gero). Say at least by 1.3-1.5x. If Piccolo was 75% of base Goku that would put Android 20 at 35-50% of Base Goku (0.35Y-0.5Y).

This is based on the supposition that Piccolo was weaker than base Goku though. Which doesn't need to be the case.

c) Goku turned SSJ1 against Android 19. Yes he dominated Android 19 similar to what he did as SSJ3 versus Fat Buu. Say 2x times stronger. Perhaps 5x at the very most. Same goes for SSJ1 Vegeta. That would put Android 19 at a power level of around 10Y-20Y. Besides if he was stronger than 50x then he wouldn't need to go SSJ1.

The issue here is Android 19 is an Android. While his power output may not rival that of Goku's or Vegeta's his durability could. Do you not recall the door to Dr. Gero's lab which neither Kuririn or Tenshinhan could kick down? Considering a door with, let's pretend and say has a battle power of 1 as everything is supposed to have some form of Ki energy, was not damaged by two characters who have battle powers ranging from 10,000+ to 100,000 it is clear that while Android 19 could be substantially weaker his durability may make up for it.

Problem 2
After Imperfect Cell fired his Kamehameha against Piccolo he explained he had cells from Goku from 3 years earlier. Piccolo remarked that that’s why it was soooo weaker than expected as Goku grew way much stronger during their 3 years of training. How could he say that Goku grew much stronger if he raised his power level from 3.5 to 5 million and the reference frame of power levels in the Android saga is in the 100s? Cell was not a Super Saiyan neither did he have the equivalent golden aura when he fired that Kamehameha.

This is a bit of subjectivity. Because the manga has can't really show you this sort of stuff. It might be an issue in the anime but I tend to ignore colouring issues.

Problem 3
According to this power-scaling logic as you can see even post RoSaT Base Goku/Vegeta are required to be significantly weaker than Piccolo and Android 18. And we are talking about like 10-12x weaker (though as SSJ1 they were 4-5x stronger). Though this is fine in the Android saga, in the Buu arc the things get complicated…

By a rule of thumb the SSJ's only need to be weaker than 25% for them to be sufficiently beaten by an opponent. And even there, there is some leeway. It should also probably be noted that gains started to tail off by this point. The characters couldn't simply grow by 10x stronger like they could prior to the Android arc. By the time Boo comes around Goku and Vegeta have difficulties catching up with a SSJ2 Enraged Gohan. Only surpassing him by a small amount.

(a) SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta have SSJ2 Gohan against Cell as a reference point so at best they could have been like 2x stronger than Gohan in the Cell games. That means that their base although it increased by 3-4 times it is STILL 3-4 times weaker than the power level of Android 18 and Piccolo.

I'm not sure I'm following. Why would Goku and Vegeta's base levels be so close to Android 18 and Piccolo's levels? I think it is more or less established they couldn't do anything against them in their base forms.

(b) Then how can Vegeta, Goku and Gohan be so confident they could take on Piccolo and 18 in the 25th TB even after agreeing NOT to go SSJ1?

It was Vegeta who made this statement but I don't see why we should think this means they were confident in beating Piccolo and 18. At best he was only talking about his superiority with regards to the other Saiyan's. Gohan also says he may take 2nd or 3rd place. Meaning one of the other characters, like Piccolo or 18, could take 2nd or 1st. You're also forgetting that this is a tournament setting. So Goku, Vegeta and Gohan could still beat these two characters without having to be as strong as them. Kiai's work on characters that are much stronger than the user, for instance. They could simply knock them out of the ring with Kiai's. And if Piccolo beats 18 but has a difficult time to the point he is low on energy then Goku, Vegeta and Gohan could beat him.

(c) Goten and Trunks as Mighty Mask in their base against 18 hold their own. Yes, 18 was likely holding back a bit at that point but their difference didn't seem to be greater than it was between her and SSJ Vegeta in the Android saga. So Android 18 was likely 2x stronger than them in their base. Given that Goku and Vegeta were at least 3x stronger than their little sons it would mean that indeed Vegeta was 2x stronger than 18 in his base. Note that when Goten and Trunks turned SSJ1 against 18, Trunks fired a blast that Goten specifically urged him to not be full power as it would kill 18 - 18 was impressed– scared even when she saw it.

At the time 18 thought it was a human so she was obviously holding back majorly. Had she been going at 100% She would have probably decimated them until they turned SSJ.

(d) Supreme Kai who thought nothing of Freeza was impressed by Goku’s and Vegeta’s performance in their base form against Babidi’s fighters. And don’t tell me he cannot sense power levels as he did sense Gohan’s power when he powered up to SSj2 gaaisnt Kibito. Kibito could sense the power too. Also isn't ironic given that Beerus who is immensely more power than any Kaio-shin held Freeza at higher value? Did Beerus have in mind that Freeza’s if trained could reach the power level he reached in the Resurrection of Freeza arc? Don't forget that Freeza’s final form (not the Golden) was comparable to Godly base Goku (Goku was likely 1.3-2x stronger, but not more than that) which is well beyond SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc.

The Kaioshin is a bit of a problem because he was scared of all the fighters Babidi has. Perhaps due to their reputation. Mr. Satan is supposed to be the strongest in the universe but if you actually fought him you know what wouldn't be the case. It is highly likely he was just overestimating Babidi's minion's. I mean come on. Pui Pui thought 10x Earth's gravity was a difficult feat. If he were truly stronger than Freeza I highly doubt that would have been the case. The Kaioshin may be able to sense Ki but it doesn't seem he can do so very accurately otherwise he wouldn't be so shocked with Goku and Vegeta's performances. He would sense that Vegeta is vastly stronger than Pui Pui and not be worried. But he literally says they should team up to defeat him and Yakon. So clearly he isn't that good. As for Beerus holding Freeza at a higher value. It is understandable because he shouldn't be that strong. The Kaioshin are supposed to be born extremely strong. In comparison to the other races of the universe anyway. So why wouldn't he hold Freeza above the Kaioshin?

(g) As an aside in the anime Gohan fought against Dabura (Dabra) in his base form for a while before turning SSJ2 and Dabra was implied to be as strong as the Supreme Kai. Also there are various anime fillers where base Goku went against opponents in his base that it wouldn’t make sense to not power up into SSJ. Like against Paikuhan a guy who could one-shot Cell. Also when Goku and Vegeta paired in the first round most of the Z fighters implied it was pretty much the real final coming early – along the lines that one position was emptied for the final or so. But anyway let’s don't consider anime fillers -which is ironic as we compare it against Dragonball Super which is 90% Toei but anyway.

Dabra was implied to be as strong as Cell. So this is just a horrible problem with the filler. We also have Popo fighting off two SSJ children. Don't put much stock into the filler.

By the way, I was a firm believer in their battle powers being lower than Freeza's in base even before this line in BoG and DBS. Because the Genki Dama takes Genki from everyone on Earth. Even assuming a population of 6-8 billion with average battle powers of 5 that would only bring the Genki Dama up to 30-40 billion if all of the 5 represented Genki. But Genki is supposed to make up just one element of Ki so it is likely less than that. So yes, I still stand by the Base Saiyan's being weaker than 100% Freeza at that point in BoG.

[Tectorman]

Goku WAS informed about the constraint too.

Okay, I scoured the manga from Gohan and the others on the plane to Gohan revving up to SSJ2 for Kibito. I couldn't find where anyone informs Goku of the constraint at all. The closest seemed to be when Goten used SSJ on Trunks. Gohan called Goten a dope, and Vegeta complained about the cheap shot. Sorry, but I don't see those comments being the same as "Oh hey, Goku/Kakarrot/Dad, do you think we could go through this tournament without going SSJ?". Are you assuming it was an off-panel conversation, or did I miss it?

Also - she did not hold back her power because she was so honorable but she still did hold back her power so much and decreased it to under-Freeza level, so that she struggled for ... reasons? Okay.

It could be due to her desire to not outright kill the father of her child.

Again, the elephant in the room here is Krillin.

Krillin was simply ignored as a weakling.

So you're going with possibility 3 (the use of the word "we" is allowed to exclude characters). Okay.

Android 18 was excluded because she wasn't a Saiyan. Heck, the only two people we know were included in Vegeta's use of the word "we" were Vegeta and Gohan, because Gohan was the person he was talking to. Unless there's some reason the use of the word "we" is allowed to exclude some characters but absolutely under no circumstances is allowed to exclude certain other characters.

[Darkprince410]

Even in the latter stages there are various out-of-place cover pages. More importantly in the anime they created filler about the training and they didn't use that cover page of the manga which given that the anime expands on the manga material it should had been used …. if it was legit. The other examples you gave all made it to the anime.

Toei used whatever content they felt like when it came to the anime, and just because they didn't use that as an example doesn't mean that Toriyama didn't intend for it to be that way. That page, like the other relevant cover pages, still show in-universe events rather than random, totally unrelated content. It shows them training for the Jinzou-ningen, which is exactly what was going on in the manga at the time, so it's still relevant.

You said that he didn't use Freeza as a point of strength reference and I corrected you.

No, the two situations aren't related. What I said was that his shock over Freeza being defeated was that it was a Saiya-jin who defeated him, not that Freeza was beaten entirely. When it came to his conversation with Goku, the only opponent he knew that Goku had defeated up to that point was Freeza, so he was using Freeza as a frame of reference for strength at that point, in discussion with Goku, because it was the one frame of reference that he knew Goku would know.

If I'm going to speak with someone about something, and make comparisons with them about things, I'm going to use frames of reference I know they'll understand. I'm not going to make estimations or statements that I'll get and just hope that they can understand it.

The point of the matter is though is that he wasn't surprised by Freeza being beaten, but by who actually beat him.

Yet …

2. His assertion about the amount of Goku’s reserves during their battle on Namek and that all he needed was 50% of his maximum to defeat him was spot on. So he could compare others' exhibited strength against his own strength.

How is that remotely the same at all though? This is a situation of Freeza making an assessment over how much power he thinks he might acquire if he trained for the first time in his life, something he has no frame of reference for at all. All his power, up to that point, has been his own that he already has, so he can quantify that, and his estimation of Goku's strength is just that he doubted Goku had the capacity to push himself to 20x his strength given what he had seen so far.

And isn't it ironic that you suggest that Beerus saying something is a fact and should not be interpreted otherwise as it is apparently the intention of the creators; yet Freeza saying something should be disregarded because it might be interpreted otherwise. Isn't it the intention of the creators anymore?

The two situations are extremely different, and I made that distinction quite clear earlier. Beerus is speaking to Goku in the here and now, assessing his strength at the time as an established value, while Freeza is making a guess as to how much power he thinks he'll acquire from doing something that he's never done before, thus has no frame of reference to how much stronger he'll actually become. There is plenty of room for Freeza to be wrong in that situation, as he's going into completely uncharted waters.

(d) Supreme Kai who thought nothing of Freeza was impressed by Goku’s and Vegeta’s performance in their base form against Babidi’s fighters. And don’t tell me he cannot sense power levels as he did sense Gohan’s power when he powered up to SSj2 gaaisnt Kibito. Kibito could sense the power too. Also isn't ironic given that Beerus who is immensely more power than any Kaio-shin held Freeza at higher value? Did Beerus have in mind that Freeza’s if trained could reach the power level he reached in the Resurrection of Freeza arc? Don't forget that Freeza’s final form (not the Golden) was comparable to Godly base Goku (Goku was likely 1.3-2x stronger, but not more than that) which is well beyond SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc.

East Kaioushin was shown time and again to be completely terrible when it came to sensing battle powers. You yourself established that he had sensed Gohan's Super Saiya-jin 2 battle power at the Budoukai, yet only a short time later he's making statements that they have to all gang up against Yakon if they wanted to win. Yakon, an enemy that Goku was shown to be able to handle well enough in his base form, and that Gohan stated that the two of them (he and Goku) could definitely beat without transforming, and East Kaioushin is insisting that they need to all team up to beat him.

Besides, it should be noted that there's anecdotal evidence that Babi-di's men couldn't be sensed. It's clearly indicated earlier that Spopovitch didn't have a life force that could be sensed, and when it came to Yakon and Dabra, Goku and the others made note of judging their abilities based on their movements, rather than just going off battle power. If they had battle powers that could be sensed, why would Goku and the others need to go on a much more unreliable method?

[Speedster]

Problem 1
Android 19 and 20 need to have a big power level difference amongst them while it is implied they are more or less comparable.

A variance around 25% has shown to be a big power difference in the story so I don't see why this is a problem.

I didn't argue the opposite. Even a 1.25x difference would be large and 2x would be huge but #19 and #20 were comparable. So a 30x difference amongst them cannot be justified. So something is wrong – and this is the 50x “official” SSJ1 multiplier and the statement that base Saiyans in BoGs are weaker than Freeza.

Do you not recall the door to Dr. Gero's lab which neither Kuririn or Tenshinhan could kick down?

That scene makes absolutely zero sense to me. Even if the material of the door was impenetrable they could have destroyed the surrounding mountain. They did so later anyway.

Considering a door with, let's pretend and say has a battle power of 1 as everything is supposed to have some form of Ki energy, was not damaged by two characters who have battle powers ranging from 10,000+ to 100,000 it is clear that while Android 19 could be substantially weaker his durability may make up for it.

So you are suggesting that #19 was about as strong as #20. Then Goku shouldn't have needed to turn SSJ1 against #19 given Piccolo defeated #20. Unless you support that Piccolo was in the same order of magnitude as SSJ1. Which is fine only if you accept that turning SSJ1 is not x50 the base.

This is based on the supposition that Piccolo was weaker than base Goku though. Which doesn't need to be the case.

Yes it does need to be the case. In the Namek saga Piccolo was around 1.2 million and base Goku was 3 million. There is no way in hell that Piccolo grew to 180 million while base Goku to only 5 million. 36x difference from Goku’s base. And when he turned Kamiccolo he did what? Just doubled it at best? He could train in RoSaT for an hour and get much stronger then. Also if Piccolo had anywhere near such a big growth factor relative to Goku and Vegeta then Kamiccolo would be much stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta after training in RoSaT for the same amount of time, especially given he entered the room being at a stronger state than Vegeta. Besides Goku was always said to grow his strength exponentially- that is proportional to his whichever current power level. That means adjustment of his growth factor - if it was constant his increase wouldn't be exponential but not even linear.

By a rule of thumb the SSJ's only need to be weaker than 25% for them to be sufficiently beaten by an opponent. And even there, there is some leeway. It should also probably be noted that gains started to tail off by this point. The characters couldn't simply grow by 10x stronger like they could prior to the Android arc. By the time Boo comes around Goku and Vegeta have difficulties catching up with a SSJ2 Enraged Gohan. Only surpassing him by a small amount.

Only if you consider SSJ1 as 50x multiplier of the base this becomes an issue.

At the time 18 thought it was a human so she was obviously holding back majorly. Had she been going at 100% She would have probably decimated them until they turned SSJ.

This is a baseless assumption. There is no reason for her to keep using only 1% of her power and keep struggling. Also it was obvious to her from the get-go that Mighty mask was superior to an ordinary human – she even commented about it before they started fighting.

The Kaioshin may be able to sense Ki but it doesn't seem he can do so very accurately otherwise he wouldn't be so shocked with Goku and Vegeta's performances.

No base Goku’s and Vegeta’s performances were actually impressive compared to Supreme Kai’s own strength. It is one thing to be 5% wrong and another to be 10,000% wrong. Remember that when Goku explained how power sensing works (to Gohan prior to him fighting Cell) he pretty much said that the way it works is by comparing the power you sense against your own. For Supreme Kai to be impressed it means that what he felt from base Goku and Vegeta was a power higher or at least comparable to his own. It doesn’t leave any room for a doubt.

Don't put much stock into the filler.

What makes Beerus’ comment in an anime scene more authoritative than another anime scene however? Besides Dragonball Super clearly portrays Piccolo weaker than base Saiyans. See how Vegeta stopped him going against Whis, how Piccolo went to watch the fight in the spaceship despite not being part of the ritual to give any energy and how he couldn't follow the battle while Vegeta could. See also Resurrection of F where we are supposed to believe that Shishami became 5x stronger than final form freeza in the Namek arc while definitely being below first form Freeza 4 months earlier – at least 1000x increase! Yeah sure…

The Genki Dama takes Genki from everyone on Earth. Even assuming a population of 6-8 billion with average battle powers of 5 that would only bring the Genki Dama up to 30-40 billion if all of the 5 represented Genki. But Genki is supposed to make up just one element of Ki so it is likely less than that. So yes, I still stand by the Base Saiyan's being weaker than 100% Freeza at that point in BoG.

First of all power levels are non-linearly related to real energy and strength. Say all humans could fire a Kamehameha of a power level of 10 and superimposed it into one. The power level of the combined attack will NOT be 5 billlion*5=25 billion. It will be much much weaker. With a power level of less than 100, Goku could move a 700 tonne boulder – can 20 humans do that if they all push against the boulder together? Apparently there is an exponential relationship between actual strength and power levels. But Genki doesn't work the same way Ki works anyway. It is not numerically related to Ki and power levels. If it was then Goten and Trunks would power up into Super Saiyans in order to donate more Genki. Apparently there is a great multiplication factor when Genki is converted into a destructive “Ki attack” through the Genki Dama technique.

[Darkprince410]

Yes it does need to be the case. In the Namek saga Piccolo was around 1.2 million and base Goku was 3 million. There is no way in hell that Piccolo grew to 180 million while base Goku to only 5 million. 36x difference from Goku’s base. And when he turned Kamiccolo he did what? Just doubled it at best? He could train in RoSaT for an hour and get much stronger then. Also if Piccolo had anywhere near such a big growth factor relative to Goku and Vegeta then Kamiccolo would be much stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta after training in RoSaT for the same amount of time, especially given he entered the room being at a stronger state than Vegeta. Besides Goku was always said to grow his strength exponentially- that is proportional to his whichever current power level. That means adjustment of his growth factor - if it was constant his increase wouldn't be exponential but not even linear.

Again, Goku was a Super Saiya-jin when he was shown sparring against Piccolo, which would increase his strength considerably. In addition to this, take note that Goku thought that it was possible that Piccolo had been the one to take out Freeza, so he clearly believed it was possible (if not already partially the case) that Piccolo had become so strong between the events of the Freeza Saga and Freeza's arrival on Earth to have taken Freeza out. So any increases Goku had would then work out to proportional increases in his base form. A 180,000,000 increase for the both of them would result in an increase of 3.6 million to Goku's base.

Part of your argument even just assumes that Piccolo must not have improved at all in the year between the battle on Namek and Freeza's arrival on Earth, when it's very possible that his strength increased considerably during that year, to where Goku thought Piccolo had what it took to defeat Freeza.

[Speedster]

Again, Goku was a Super Saiya-jin when he was shown sparring against Piccolo, which would increase his strength considerably.

And again, no he was NOT. But you are fully entitled to believe whatever you want. For what is worth in the same cover manga scene we also see base Gohan with them - so both might have being holding back for him or base Gohan was comparable to them as SSj1 was not a huge multiplier. The only scenes of that training that we really got to see is in the Anime and it was base Goku vs Piccolo. Period.

In addition to this, take note that Goku thought that it was possible that Piccolo had been the one to take out Freeza, so he clearly believed it was possible (if not already partially the case) that Piccolo had become so strong between the events of the Freeza Saga and Freeza's arrival on Earth to have taken Freeza out.

He first asked Vegeta the same thing and we know Vegeta's growth factor is similar to Goku's. That is actually ANOTHER reason why base Saiyans should had definitely surpassed Freeza.

Part of your argument even just assumes that Piccolo must not have improved at all in the year between the battle on Namek and Freeza's arrival on Earth, when it's very possible that his strength increased considerably during that year, to where Goku thought Piccolo had what it took to defeat Freeza.

I assume nothing. I compared the increase over the 4 year period. Piccolo's power level might have perfectly increased during the 1 year gap between Freeza and Mecha Freeza but so did Goku's. We know this for a fact given how easily Trunks defeated a stronger Freeza and that Goku's power was comparable to Trunks'.

[Darkprince410]

And again, no he was NOT. But you are fully entitled to believe whatever you want. For what is worth in the same cover manga scene we also see base Gohan with them - so both might have being holding back for him or base Gohan was comparable to them as SSj1 was not a huge multiplier. The only scenes of that training that we really got to see is in the Anime and it was base Goku vs Piccolo. Period.

If you want to believe in filler content rather than what is shown in the manga, that's your business, but we have Toriyama clearly showing us, among the rest of the training montage that page gave us, that Goku trained with Piccolo as a Super Saiya-jin.

He first asked Vegeta the same thing and we know Vegeta's growth factor is similar to Goku's. That is actually ANOTHER reason why base Saiyans should had definitely surpassed Freeza.

Or he thought that Vegeta, in the year that he was gone, had managed to become a Super Saiya-jin as well. Goku clearly sensed a high enough battle power from space that he thought that individual had what it took to defeat Freeza, so for him to point to Piccolo as a possible candidate means he felt it was possible that, in one year's time, Piccolo became strong enough to take on Freeza.

I assume nothing. I compared the increase over the 4 year period. Piccolo's power level might have perfectly increased during the 1 year gap between Freeza and Mecha Freeza but so did Goku's. We know this for a fact given how easily Trunks defeated a stronger Freeza and that Goku's power was comparable to Trunks'.

Given what's stated, there's no evidence that Freeza was anywhere near his full power when Trunks defeated him. In addition, it should be noted that Goku, before showing much any signs of the heart virus taking effect, could barely stagger a base-level strength Dr. Gero with a punch when intending to try and stop him from destroying the city, yet Piccolo was able to effortlessly batter and toss around a far stronger Dr. Gero (having both Ssj Vegeta's ki blast and Piccolo's ki augmenting his own). If Piccolo was weaker than Goku's base form, as you're attesting, then there's no way that he'd have been able to take on Gero so readily.