"Dragon Ball Super" Series Official Announcement & Discussion Thread

[MaGyunia]

Also Vados says she's stronger then Whis.

Of course she did. Because why would she say that Whis is stronger? It's a pride thing. Mind you, they haven't seen each other in a thousand years. Whis reminds her of this, and says he's been training since then.

Until we get to see them engaging in actual battle, which is a far-fetched scenario (it's much more likely to see Beerus actually fighting Champa, in fact) we'll have nothing on which to base ourselves to state which one of the two is stronger. Vados could indeed be slightly above Vados or the other way around, or they could be exactly on par with each other. What does seem very plausible a scenario is that Beerus is above Champa.

It's interesting to see that both duos of brothers have an uneasy relationship and quite a lot of apparent rivalry going on between them. I bet all of us would cheer for the Beerus + Whis duo if any type of conflict occurs, since we've already embraced Beerus, and indeed Whis, to some degree, as part of the franchise and grown fond of them.

And who's to say Vados wasn't training since then as well? Not to mention Whis says she's the one who trained him. I think it's heavily implied that Vados is at least a bit stronger, like it's implied, but not outright stated, that Beerus is stronger than Champa.

Again, just because you trained someone at some point it doesn't mean you're automatically forever above them in terms of power. Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami and Kaiou-sama all trained Goku and he soon surpassed all of them. I don't see the argument of her having trained Whis as definite proof or even strong implication that she must be, or is probably above Whis. We'll most likely never know, the only way to know for sure is if official info was released, or if they fought each other, neither of which seems plausible at least for now (in fact, I don't see the latter happening ever at all).

[Captain Space]

Preface: I'm aware this is quite off-topic, so I'm happy to discuss this in another thread.

My only problems with your logic, MaGyunia, are that:

1. You say SSJ Gotenks can't be above SSJ3 Goku...just because. Is there an actual reason?

2. You interpret Goku's statement that he can't beat Super Buu as referring only to his SSJ2, which doesn't make too much sense considering he can very easily go SSJ3 (and previously did so against multiple forms of Buu), but your main reason is that it's the only way to justify him as being able to beat Super Buu in SSJ3. And you think he can do that because you think his SSJ3 is equal-ish to mystic Gohan. And you think that...again...just because. (Also this contradicts with your actual list in that you have Gohan listed significantly above Goku, as he should be, but then here you say they're equal...?)

3. You admit Gotenks was about to beat Super Buu, i.e. Gotenks definitely outclassed Buu, but you still have Buu above Gotenks, which seems a bit contradictory.

[Doctor.]

Again, just because you trained someone at some point it doesn't mean you're automatically forever above them in terms of power. Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami and Kaiou-sama all trained Goku and he soon surpassed all of them. I don't see the argument of her having trained Whis as definite proof or even strong implication that she must be, or is probably above Whis. We'll most likely never know, the only way to know for sure is if official info was released, or if they fought each other, neither of which seems plausible at least for now (in fact, I don't see the latter happening ever at all).

Goku proved himself to be superior to those that taught him. Before he proved himself, it was right to assume he was still inferior. Before F, I never saw someone saying Roshi was stronger than Karin, most people just said Karin was stronger, why? Because he was the one who trained Roshi. And since Roshi never proved otherwise, there was no argument that one could make to have Roshi above Karin. Until it's proven otherwise, then what's the problem with having Vados superior to Whis if that's what the manga implies? I don't see any argument to support otherwise besides not wanting her to be that strong, for some reason.

[Hellspawn28]

So would you guys say that Freeza is the first villain in the series to be the main villain twice?

Piccolo was the main villain twice.

Piccolo and his father are consider to be separate characters. Freeza has been the main villain in the Namek saga and the Reveal of F (or Golden Freeza) saga. The main villains in order are: Pilaf>Commander Red>Tenshinhan>Piccolo Daimao>Piccolo>Vegeta>Freeza>Cell>Majin Buu>Beerus>Freeza>Champa>Dolltaki>Bebi>Super 17>Yi Xing Long

I recall that Fortuneteller Baba saga didn't had a major villain to it.

[MaGyunia]

Preface: I'm aware this is quite off-topic, so I'm happy to discuss this in another thread.

My only problems with your logic, MaGyunia, are that:

1. You say SSJ Gotenks can't be above SSJ3 Goku...just because. Is there an actual reason?

2. You interpret Goku's statement that he can't beat Super Buu as referring only to his SSJ2, which doesn't make too much sense considering he can very easily go SSJ3 (and previously did so against multiple forms of Buu), but your main reason is that it's the only way to justify him as being able to beat Super Buu in SSJ3. And you think he can do that because you think his SSJ3 is equal-ish to mystic Gohan. And you think that...again...just because. (Also this contradicts with your actual list in that you have Gohan listed significantly above Goku, as he should be, but then here you say they're equal...?)

3. You admit Gotenks was about to beat Super Buu, i.e. Gotenks definitely outclassed Buu, but you still have Buu above Gotenks, which seems a bit contradictory.

You might have noticed that I specified at the end of the post you're referring to, with the list, that it was hastily done and was meant only and mainly to generate a discussion (although in the wrong thread, for the also specified reasons). Of course my ranking, especially in the Majin Buu arc, is subject to interpretation and arguments which are years-long and have been going on with no definite conclusion since forever, and of course my list contains debatable specifications. When you go deeper into it, you find that the list you just made contains inconsistencies when it comes to logic, as you pointed out in your second point and third points. Saying Super Saiya-jin 3 Gotenks is definitely below Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku and Super Saiya-jin 3 Goku is about on par with Ultimate Gohan when he shows up to thrash Super Buu is a matter of estimation, neither I nor you nor anybody else can say one way or another for sure.

Anyway, I could continue a debate on that list and the problems with the logic presented in the following post, and I was successful in generating some replies, but I'll take on those particular issues you've pointed out later on and in the proper thread.

[Retan]

I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.

[FutureGohanSSJ2]

Also Vados says she's stronger then Whis.

Of course she did. Because why would she say that Whis is stronger? It's a pride thing. Mind you, they haven't seen each other in a thousand years. Whis reminds her of this, and says he's been training since then.

And who's to say Vados wasn't training since then as well? Not to mention Whis says she's the one who trained him. I think it's heavily implied that Vados is at least a bit stronger, like it's implied, but not outright stated, that Beerus is stronger than Champa.

Did I say that she hasn't been? I'm simply saying that taking what she said as fact isn't viable. Heck, what she stated is immediately countered by Whis, and even she questions whether or not he's telling the truth by asking him to a duel.

Also, this is an entirely different than what we're experiencing with Beerus and Champa. To be honest with you? Absolutely nothing has been "heavily implied". People are merely jumping to conclusions. Something being "heavily implied" means that there is a source that is basically saying something is some way. There is nothing like that for this. And no, I'm sorry, the scene in the manga of Champa "sneaking around" is not, nor was it "heavily implied", as being a way to prove that Champa is weaker than Beerus.

Seriously, I don't get that logic. Not wanting to get into a fight that would risk destroying everything (including what he's looking for), is now a sign of weakness? No. He simply wants to avoid something that is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. If he can get the job done /without/ Beerus noticing, even if he was stronger, it's still a better course of action to take. That doesn't make him weak. That makes him a great tactician.

[MaGyunia]

Again, just because you trained someone at some point it doesn't mean you're automatically forever above them in terms of power. Muten Roshi, Karin, Kami and Kaiou-sama all trained Goku and he soon surpassed all of them. I don't see the argument of her having trained Whis as definite proof or even strong implication that she must be, or is probably above Whis. We'll most likely never know, the only way to know for sure is if official info was released, or if they fought each other, neither of which seems plausible at least for now (in fact, I don't see the latter happening ever at all).

Goku proved himself to be superior to those that taught him. Before he proved himself, it was right to assume he was still inferior. Before F, I never saw someone saying Roshi was stronger than Karin, most people just said Karin was stronger, why? Because he was the one who trained Roshi. And since Roshi never proved otherwise, there was no argument that one could make to have Roshi above Karin. Until it's proven otherwise, then what's the problem with having Vados superior to Whis if that's what the manga implies? I don't see any argument to support otherwise besides not wanting her to be that strong, for some reason.

I'm not saying she's weaker or stronger than Whis, and certainly not saying that Whis is definitely stronger; I'm just saying that just because she trained Whis at some point and she boasts she's above him is no good solid reason to base yourself, theoretically all scenarios are equally plausible: either she's slightly above him, or he's slightly above her, or they're exactly on par. For the reasons I specified, we'll probably never really know for sure. An actual fight or official info, either within the episodes themselves or provided by official sources, are the only ways to specify just how one warrior compares to another.

[FutureGohanSSJ2]

I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.

LMAO Did you just call me a sexist?

[Doctor.]

Also, this is an entirely different than what we're experiencing with Beerus and Champa. To be honest with you? Absolutely nothing has been "heavily implied". People are merely jumping to conclusions. Something being "heavily implied" means that there is a source that is basically saying something is some way. There is nothing like that for this. And no, I'm sorry, the scene in the manga of Champa "sneaking around" is not, nor was it "heavily implied", as being a way to prove that Champa is weaker than Beerus.

Seriously, I don't get that logic. Not wanting to get into a fight that would risk destroying everything (including what he's looking for), is now a sign of weakness? No. He simply wants to avoid something that is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. If he can get the job done /without/ Beerus noticing, even if he was stronger, it's still a better course of action to take. That doesn't make him weak. That makes him a great tactician.

What are you talking about? Vados comments on Champa's physique and, yes, heavily implies Champa is weaker. The only way it could get any clearer would be if she outright said Beerus was stronger.

[MaGyunia]

I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.

LMAO Did you just call me a sexist?

He might have been saying that to me, actually, as I've conceived a list just hours ago and I put Whis at number 1 and Vados at number 2, and I could have very well have chosen to do it the other way around, I just deliberately wanted one spot for one warrior and had to decide and went for Whis. If it was intended towards me, let me assure you - and I've done this once a few days ago - that whatever position I estimate Vados to be in regarding any other warrior in the franchise has NOTHING to do with the fact she's a lady. It never even crossed my mind.

[Araki]

I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.

LOL this is hilarious.

No one can tell for sure she's really stronger, because Whis objected, and if she was stronger at one point, that happened 1000 years ago, and probably because she is older. That scene was supposed to leave it up in the air.

[MaGyunia]

I think it's more like it's your piride that doesn't want to see a female as the strongest, and there really is no reason to say Whis is 1 and and Vados 2 other then your stupid pride, but to each their own.

LOL this is hilarious.

No one can tell for sure she's really stronger, because Whis objected, and if she was stronger at one point, that happened 1000 years ago, and probably because she is older. That scene was supposed to leave it up in the air.

Yeah, and sorry Doctor., but that's just why "heavily implied" is too strong to apply under these current circumstances we've been discussing just now.

[FutureGohanSSJ2]

Also, this is an entirely different than what we're experiencing with Beerus and Champa. To be honest with you? Absolutely nothing has been "heavily implied". People are merely jumping to conclusions. Something being "heavily implied" means that there is a source that is basically saying something is some way. There is nothing like that for this. And no, I'm sorry, the scene in the manga of Champa "sneaking around" is not, nor was it "heavily implied", as being a way to prove that Champa is weaker than Beerus.

Seriously, I don't get that logic. Not wanting to get into a fight that would risk destroying everything (including what he's looking for), is now a sign of weakness? No. He simply wants to avoid something that is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. If he can get the job done /without/ Beerus noticing, even if he was stronger, it's still a better course of action to take. That doesn't make him weak. That makes him a great tactician.

What are you talking about? Vados comments on Champa's physique and, yes, heavily implies Champa is weaker. The only way it could get any clearer would be if she outright said Beerus was stronger.

...no. She was basically hitting him with a compliment and a joke at the same time. Who would win in a fight? A man who hasn't eaten in weeks? Literally nothing but skin and bones? Or a bigger guy with tons of fat? That's what she was implying, I believe. Saying, "Hey. He's fatter, so he must be stronger." Compliment. Harmful joke. One sentence.

[Doctor.]

...no. She was basically hitting him with a compliment and a joke at the same time. Who would win in a fight? A man who hasn't eaten in weeks? Literally nothing but skin and bones? Or a bigger guy with tons of fat? That's what she was implying, I believe. Saying, "Hey. He's fatter, so he must be stronger." Compliment. Harmful joke. One sentence.

Then why would Champa yell at her? I've never seen fat being used as a compliment, EVER. Most people I've seen interpreted it the same way I did.

[fadeddreams5]

Vados was implying Beerus is stronger. Champa's reaction to her comment is all you need to verify that.

[MaGyunia]

Also, this is an entirely different than what we're experiencing with Beerus and Champa. To be honest with you? Absolutely nothing has been "heavily implied". People are merely jumping to conclusions. Something being "heavily implied" means that there is a source that is basically saying something is some way. There is nothing like that for this. And no, I'm sorry, the scene in the manga of Champa "sneaking around" is not, nor was it "heavily implied", as being a way to prove that Champa is weaker than Beerus.

Seriously, I don't get that logic. Not wanting to get into a fight that would risk destroying everything (including what he's looking for), is now a sign of weakness? No. He simply wants to avoid something that is COMPLETELY UNNECESSARY. If he can get the job done /without/ Beerus noticing, even if he was stronger, it's still a better course of action to take. That doesn't make him weak. That makes him a great tactician.

What are you talking about? Vados comments on Champa's physique and, yes, heavily implies Champa is weaker. The only way it could get any clearer would be if she outright said Beerus was stronger.

...no. She was basically hitting him with a compliment and a joke at the same time. Who would win in a fight? A man who hasn't eaten in weeks? Literally nothing but skin and bones? Or a bigger guy with tons of fat? That's what she was implying, I believe. Saying, "Hey. He's fatter, so he must be stronger." Compliment. Harmful joke. One sentence.

Besides, commenting on a warrior's physique in the Dragonball world has absolutely no significance when it comes to measuring their actual power. One of the most basic principles of the franchise is that one's physique or appearance has NOTHING to do with how powerful they might be, and that just makes sense, as the way the warriors are able to destroy entire planets and fight the way the do is through training, transformations and especially becoming experts in Ki manipulation, which is a step further, or a ramification of the overall martial arts expertise.

I don't see this particular discussion getting anywhere, we obviously agree that we have absolutely no solid way to substantiate our position on how Vados compares to Whis for the reasons specified in all of these posts. Using "heavily implied" is going too far and I just think, for the reasons I've already stated, it doesn't apply at all in these circumstances.

Would be nice to move on to a different discussion by now.

[FutureGohanSSJ2]

...no. She was basically hitting him with a compliment and a joke at the same time. Who would win in a fight? A man who hasn't eaten in weeks? Literally nothing but skin and bones? Or a bigger guy with tons of fat? That's what she was implying, I believe. Saying, "Hey. He's fatter, so he must be stronger." Compliment. Harmful joke. One sentence.

Then why would Champa yell at her? I've never seen fat being used as a compliment, EVER. Most people I've seen interpreted it the same way I did.

She was using him being FAT as a means of saying that he's stronger. He's stronger BECAUSE he's fat. But she was still poking fun at his weight. She was still calling him fat. He still took it as an insult. It's comedy.

[Doctor.]

How is one stronger because they're fat? Naturally, the one with the better build, the more athletic of the two, should be the stronger one. Beerus even laughs at the idea of him and Champa engaging in battle.

[FutureGohanSSJ2]

How is one stronger because they're fat? Naturally, the one with the better build, the more athletic of the two, should be the stronger one. Beerus even laughs at the idea of him and Champa engaging in battle.

What? How is being skin and bones having a "better build"? You'd have /no/ build at that point, because you're skin at bones. Think of it this way: Who could lift more? A fat guy or a skin-and-bones guy? Being fat, in and of itself, implies that you naturally have more muscle than someone skinny.

Also, Beerus laughing at the idea of the two of them fighting could be him being prideful and thinking they're stronger. Or something else. A multitude of reasons. I think that we're jumping to conclusions way too fast and not thinking about it enough. It's the reason why we were wrong about almost every assumption we've made so far about both Battle Of Gods and Resurrection F. I think Toriyama has proved time and time again that he can be very unpredictable.