Goku: 90,000 to 3,000,000 Zenkai?!

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I would like to think Dende healing would create such a minuscule zenkai over time like how Senzus and healing pods did to Vegeta and Gokuu over time with smaller zenkais.

[Legendary Saiya-Jin]

I would like to think Dende healing would create such a minuscule zenkai over time like how Senzus and healing pods did to Vegeta and Gokuu over time with smaller zenkais.

[Kamiccolo9]

I would like to think Dende healing would create such a minuscule zenkai over time like how Senzus and healing pods did to Vegeta and Gokuu over time with smaller zenkais.

I like this idea.
Kind of off topic, but was Gohan ever shown getting a zenkai after either the Vegeta or Recoome fight? I know Vegeta states that his power has been rising, but he's also talking about Krillin there, and could be referring to the Great Elder's power up.

[Tyro]

Kind of off topic, but was Gohan ever shown getting a zenkai after either the Vegeta or Recoome fight? I know Vegeta states that his power has been rising, but he's also talking about Krillin there, and could be referring to the Great Elder's power up.

No, the next time we know for sure that Gohan gets one is after he's fighting Freeza. The only thing that comes to mind that sways me one way or the other is how Gohan seemed just slightly more powerful than Kuririn when they were fighting Ginyu-Goku. Gohan tanks a head-on attack and calls it weak whereas it looks like Kuririn is fighting a little more on the on-par level.

This could be due to Gohan having more hidden potential and more came out after fighting than did for Kuririn. You also have to take into account Vegeta's statement of them not using their full effort because it was Goku's body they were fighting against, which doesn't mean they would hold back dodging attacks IMO, so I think it's safe to assume Gohan is stronger than Kuririn at this point regardless of Vegeta's statement.

[DanielSSJ]

Goku was being set up as THE legendary Super Saiyan at that point. Even without that, there's been potential fan-explanations over the years as to why Goku and Vegeta's healing boosts were that big. Everything from simply "closer to death, bigger boost," the rapid frequency of the boosts compounding how much power they granted, to some sort of dormant power thing where they were spiraling closer and closer to Super Saiyan.

This would make sense, especially since Zenkai's seem to dissappear after people start transforming into Super Saiyans (excluding Perfect Cell that one time).

kind of have to disagree with you on this. Goku was marginally weaker than Piccolo, Vegeta and Trunks in the Cell Arc. Yet all of a sudden Goku after entering the RoSaT once got stronger than all of them and was strong enough to rival Suppressed Perfect Cell in his regular SSJ form. Vegeta and Trunks entered twice and they still couldn't match (Post-RoSaT) Goku. I'm under the belief that while training with Gohan, who was increasing in strength by leaps and bounds due to more and more of his potential being released, was forced to keep up with him through Zenkai's. Its really the only logical explanation for Goku to go from being weaker than the Androids to as strong as Suppressed Perfect Cell whereas a Vegeta and Trunks who had already been in the RoSaT once and gotten stronger than the Androids and Semi-Perfect Cell were still chasing Goku even after going in there a second time.

There is an explanation. Vegeta and Trunks may have trained harder than Goku and Gohan, but Goku and Gohan trained smarter. It's implied that constantly remaining in their Super Saiyan state, in and out of battle, let Goku and Gohan reap massive gains in strength. Remember, the Super Saiyan was stated to take a lot of effort to maintain. Staying in that state for long periods of time would be a form of training in and of itself. And that, plus sparring with another Super Saiyan would let them get much, much stronger.

Vegeta and Trunks might have started on the "mastering the Super Saiyan" path on their second visit, but they both entered alone so they didn't have a sparring partner.

Piccolo didn't get the same gains as the others did because he's not a Saiyan.

[Polyphase Avatron]

I always figured Goku was holding his real power back against Ginyu and was just using Kaio-ken for show.

[Khin]

Still not as ridiculous as Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus.

[Saiga]

I would like to think Dende healing would create such a minuscule zenkai over time like how Senzus and healing pods did to Vegeta and Gokuu over time with smaller zenkais.

I like this idea.
Kind of off topic, but was Gohan ever shown getting a zenkai after either the Vegeta or Recoome fight? I know Vegeta states that his power has been rising, but he's also talking about Krillin there, and could be referring to the Great Elder's power up.

Yes. When he attacks Freeza to save Piccolo, Vegeta notes this power is from the zenkai he received from being beaten up by second form Freeza.

[Darkprince410]

Not to derail the topic, but I should point out that this was a necropost topic. DanielSsj bumped it from over two years ago.

[buutenks]

Goku jumped from 90 k to 3 mil due to plot reasons.And vegeta jumped from 30 k to 300 k+ again due to plot reasons.The reason for it,was the fact that Freeza was given such a high PL in his first form.

Toriyama gave freeza a big PL to show how OP he is,but he had to boost goku and vegeta and piccolo in turn to stand a chance.

Thats out of universe.

In universe,goku got lucky that he got his butt kicked before freeza showed up and got lucky again with a huge PL boost.Vegeta also had a bit of luck on his side,and Piccolo also that he stumbled upon nail.

Vegeta got unlucky also since he didnt go SS,and piccolo got unlucky because his fusion with nail only increased his PL to 1 mil+.

So fate was on goku's side due to him needing to fulfill the role of the legendary super saiyan and kick freeza's butt.So karma i guess also haha ^^karma for freeza.

Not to derail the topic, but I should point out that this was a necropost topic. DanielSsj bumped it from over two years ago.

haha,i didnt even notice it,though it was made today ^^.

[Hitiro]

There is an explanation. Vegeta and Trunks may have trained harder than Goku and Gohan, but Goku and Gohan trained smarter. It's implied that constantly remaining in their Super Saiyan state, in and out of battle, let Goku and Gohan reap massive gains in strength. Remember, the Super Saiyan was stated to take a lot of effort to maintain. Staying in that state for long periods of time would be a form of training in and of itself. And that, plus sparring with another Super Saiyan would let them get much, much stronger.

Vegeta and Trunks might have started on the "mastering the Super Saiyan" path on their second visit, but they both entered alone so they didn't have a sparring partner.

Piccolo didn't get the same gains as the others did because he's not a Saiyan.

If it were simply maintaining SSJ to reap massive rewards then there is no reason for Trunks and Vegeta to be lagging behind when the entered the RoSaT a second time. Now I can understand Vegeta being too prideful to mimic Goku but not Trunks. It had to be more than simply maintaining the SSJ form. Toriyama has already stated that the Saiyan's grow much much stronger when fighting strong opponents, that remains the case even in BoG according to Akira Toriyama himself. I would imagine Goku having to constantly fight against Gohan who was much stronger than him due to his ridiculous potential is what brought Goku so far. Gohan is a lot like Freeza in respects to getting massive gains because he has bundles of potential. Even Goku says this was starting to be unleashed in the RoSaT when Gohan was going to fight Cell.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

If Gohan's dormant power was being released in the RoSaT it is understandable that Goku had to keep up with this release while they were sparring in the RoSaT. As more and more of that dormant power became unsealed it pushed Goku to new levels because Saiyan's always grow stronger when they fight someone stronger than themselves. Akira Toriyama even said that if Goku continued to fight Beerus the gap would have closed.

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?
I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

[DanielSSJ]

There is an explanation. Vegeta and Trunks may have trained harder than Goku and Gohan, but Goku and Gohan trained smarter. It's implied that constantly remaining in their Super Saiyan state, in and out of battle, let Goku and Gohan reap massive gains in strength. Remember, the Super Saiyan was stated to take a lot of effort to maintain. Staying in that state for long periods of time would be a form of training in and of itself. And that, plus sparring with another Super Saiyan would let them get much, much stronger.

Vegeta and Trunks might have started on the "mastering the Super Saiyan" path on their second visit, but they both entered alone so they didn't have a sparring partner.

Piccolo didn't get the same gains as the others did because he's not a Saiyan.

If it were simply maintaining SSJ to reap massive rewards then there is no reason for Trunks and Vegeta to be lagging behind when the entered the RoSaT a second time. Now I can understand Vegeta being too prideful to mimic Goku but not Trunks. It had to be more than simply maintaining the SSJ form. Toriyama has already stated that the Saiyan's grow much much stronger when fighting strong opponents, that remains the case even in BoG according to Akira Toriyama himself. I would imagine Goku having to constantly fight against Gohan who was much stronger than him due to his ridiculous potential is what brought Goku so far. Gohan is a lot like Freeza in respects to getting massive gains because he has bundles of potential. Even Goku says this was starting to be unleashed in the RoSaT when Gohan was going to fight Cell.

Chapter: 402 (DBZ 208), P6.5, P7.1-6
Context: after Goku asks Gohan to be the next one to fight Cell
Piccolo: “Don’t talk crazy, Goku! There’s no way he’d be able to fight! It’s true that he’s raised his abilities so much that he’s unrecognizable, but his opponent is Cell, who even you were no match for!”
Goku: “Piccolo, Gohan has more unbelievable power than we think. Think about it. He’s fought the same as everyone since he was a little squirt…When I was about his age, I wasn’t anything special.”
Kuririn: “B-but even if he’s become a Super Saiyan…Th-this is so quick…”
Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”
Gohan: “N-no, I didn’t think so…But neither of you were fighting all-out, right…!?”
Goku: “I don’t know about Cell, but I was going all-out. So in other words, to you it felt like I was holding back?”

If Gohan's dormant power was being released in the RoSaT it is understandable that Goku had to keep up with this release while they were sparring in the RoSaT. As more and more of that dormant power became unsealed it pushed Goku to new levels because Saiyan's always grow stronger when they fight someone stronger than themselves. Akira Toriyama even said that if Goku continued to fight Beerus the gap would have closed.

Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?
I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.

I'm not saying that Goku only got stronger because he was a Super Saiyan the whole time. Sparring with another Super Saiyan, especially with one with Gohan's massive potential, would have an effect on Goku's growth. Hell, that's the reason that I give for Piccolo's humongous increase inbetween the Freeza arc and the Android arc. I just don't think that zenkais are having much of an effect, if any at all, on their power growth at this point. Saiyan's still get stronger by fighting strong opponents, but they don't seem to be getting the same haxxed power-ups like they did on Namek.

[Hitiro]

I'm not saying that Goku only got stronger because he was a Super Saiyan the whole time. Sparring with another Super Saiyan, especially with one with Gohan's massive potential, would have an effect on Goku's growth. Hell, that's the reason that I give for Piccolo's humongous increase inbetween the Freeza arc and the Android arc. I just don't think that zenkais are having much of an effect, if any at all, on their power growth at this point. Saiyan's still get stronger by fighting strong opponents, but they don't seem to be getting the same haxxed power-ups like they did on Namek.

Well I never asserted that Zenkai's were having an affect at that point any more. It's really debatable as to how strong a Saiyan gets by fighting strong opponents. Because if the opponent isn't that much stronger then of course they aren't going to get incredible gains. But the fact is Goku sparring with Gohan who was incredibly strong pushed Goku from being weaker than the androids to a level comparable with suppressed Cell.

[Akira]

Goku's gains there make sense to me, using the numbers given during that period in the series where they are somewhat relevant. Even in the most recent material (Battle of Gods Movie or Super Arc) Goku attains a power greater than his current maximum, but once reaching that, he's able to quickly gain up towards that being his new maximum. The first half of Z zenkai boosts for Goku seem to generally result in him tripling (roughly) in power gains.

I don't like battle power debates, but in this case, we have clear numbers for Goku from this period in the Z series to use as direct reference:

At the battle with Nappa and Vegeta on Earth:
5,000 – Son Goku (ki suppressed)
8,000 – Son Goku (maximum)
16,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
24,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x3)
32,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x4)

His body experienced 32,000 due to the quadruple Kaioken (or roughly 30,000 if you consider that he was probably already tired out some after using the Kaioken x3 against Vegeta) Then after recovering from the fight and leaving the hospital to head to Namek, he abused Zenkais during his gravity training in space and basically tripled that for a new base max of 90,000, and was now capable of using Kaioken x10, as he states upon the completion of his training and arriving in Namek's solar system. He uses the normal, double Kaioken to show Ginyu what kind of power he can now sustain for prolonged periods, but mentions that he can go far beyond that in quick bursts. (Referencing Kaioken x10 or 900,000) which he had achieved while on board the ship.

At the battle with the Ginyu Force:
5,000 – Son Goku (ki suppressed)
90,000 – Son Goku (maximum)
180,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
900,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10 – referenced, not used)

He is put in the healing tank by Vegeta, and receives his most significant zenkai before the battle against Freeza. The maximum his body had experienced previously due to Kaioken x10 was 900,000, just shy of 1 million prior to his arrival on Namek. The Zenkai once again resulted in roughly tripling his base max to reflect that. Which is when he jumped to 3 million.

At the battle with Freeza:
3,000,000 – Son Goku
6,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x2)
30,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x10)
60,000,000 – Son Goku (Kaioken x20)
150,000,000 – Son Goku (Super Saiyan)

It all made sense to me, each time he had a big gain, it was roughly triple his previously maximum achieved power. I don't see where it breaks from the pattern for the first half of Z. If you go back into Dragonball, he was making double his previous maximum gains each time he got stronger. The biggest jump he made really was from being roughly 1,000 at his maximum against Raditz to a base max of 8,000 when returning to fight the Saiyans after training with King Kai. That was probably his most significant jump that comes out of left field during the period where the numbers were relevant to the story. The Freeza jump is big, yes, but it is not out of the realm of "making sense" when you look at it like this.

I have no comment about anytime later than the Freeza fight, because all assumed gains or numbers are all speculation, so it is harder to say.

[Sandubadear]

-stuff-

That makes a lot of sense, coupled with Toriyama's line that Super Saiyan multiplies by ten (is it?) his previous maximum power (which is Kaioken x20), so this implies that the "previous maximum" can be taken into consideration into these power ups.

[Eternal Super Saiyan]

Just a theory going around, but I firmly believe Goku's Kaioken technique actually prepares his body for handling Super Saiyan and thus amplifies the zenkai when fate decides it's time to transform. If you think about it, no one else at first could handle Super Saiyan properly without training with it before their next fight. Gohan almost loses consciousness transforming for his first time, Vegeta is only in it for seconds (or at least I assume he was), and past timeline Trunks had no clue what he was experiencing, he had to get used to it like anyone else. But Goku - even after being relentlessly beaten by a foe twice as strong as him, he's able to transform and continue a long heated battle with Frieza on Namek without being short of breath. If he had been like Gohan in the RoSaT, he would have lost to Frieza no question.

Kaioken must have influenced his final zenkai before transforming, because it's also evident that Vegeta/Gohan had much shorter zenkais than the 90k-3m boost during their fight with Frieza. Vegeta went from maybe 400k to under 2m before he had his last moments.

[Gorou]

The Zenkai are nothing else that another forced plot device, created to put the heroes in a position to face up, in a short time frame, a too powerful being as Frieza. They do not make sense, like all power level in general, indeed, in the laters arcs, disappear.

Are a one of the ugliest things in the arc, and the manga.

[LightBing]

An explanation I have is that Goku without knowing, enhanced his zenkai by sensing Freeza's fight with the others. He knew his turn was coming, Freeza was constantly powering up. With the help of such an unnatural method as the healing tank, his genetics literally tried to raise to the occasion, fueled by his feelings of fear/excitement/doubt.

Let's call it a preemptive zenkai.

This logic also partially works with Tagoma. Not saying he had access to zenkais. Evolution exists, he was destroyed and reborn everyday. There's even a mention of his "tough" body. It might have been his body reacting to the adversities.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Lol, I actually had a similar idea at one point. I definitely prefer your explanation more.

Another theory I had was this: Goku was heavily damaged in Ginyu's body and had trouble moving around in it. Later, the powered-up Vegeta beat the shit outta Goku Ginyu, inflicting far more damage than Goku had while he was Ginyu. Since Goku had experienced heavy damage in two different bodies within a short period of time, it forced his Chi to restructure itself entirely while he was healing. This not only explains why Goku was scared as he was overflowing with power, but also why Krillin no longer recognized his Chi :

Kuririn: “A-are you really Goku…? Your ki feels different than it did before…”

That's my convoluted theory.

[Victorious]

I just like the in universe explanation that they arent random and they typically start becoming larger as a Saiyan gets closer to Super Saiyan tier.

But then I like the idea that they stop at a certain point as well, they never happen to Saiyans after they achieve SSJ. More than likely there's a limit to base power zenkai hax, like 10,000,000 or something.