Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Captain Space]

I like how this debate is coming up like every other week now.

[Noah]

~21st Budokai 20
~22nd Budokai 60
~Raditz arc 139

Don't you guys think it's kinda weird that the world famous Master Roshi trained his whole life and when he first shows up he is just about 20 BP to 5 BP for a normal human? He might have improved in 22nd TB Arc, but since he would not sign in the 23rd TB, why the heck he would even train? As said in 22nd TB that he would retire and let the new generation take over. Maybe he trained in that 5 years time of peace between 23rd TB Arc to Saiyan Arc, but was enough for him to jump 60 to 139? I mean he is a master, he knows a lot about training... It makes senses for me that he was strong all the time, but he suppressed his strength against Goku in 21st TB and then against Tien in 22nd TB he was going almost all out but still knows that he would probably lose that fight. My point is that against Daimao he already reached his 139 BP peak, I suppose.

[ZombieVito]

~21st Budokai 20
~22nd Budokai 60
~Raditz arc 139

Don't you guys think it's kinda weird that the world famous Master Roshi trained his whole life and when he first shows up he is just about 20 BP to 5 BP for a normal human? He might have improved in 22nd TB Arc, but since he would not sign in the 23rd TB, why the heck he would even train? As said in 22nd TB that he would retire and let the new generation take over. Maybe he trained in that 5 years time of peace between 23rd TB Arc to Saiyan Arc, but was enough for him to jump 60 to 139? I mean he is a master, he knows a lot about training... It makes senses for me that he was strong all the time, but he suppressed his strength against Goku in 21st TB and then against Tenshinhan in 22nd TB he was going almost all out but still knows that he would probably lose that fight. My point is that against Daimao he already reached his 139 BP peak, I suppose.

Yep. As confirmed in Daizenshuu 7.

[Blackstripe]

Tenshinhan doesn't need to be stronger or equal to Daimao.

He need; Tenshinhan ( 23rd Budokai ) > Piccolo Daimao is pretty sure.

Official sources disagree.

Oh, the ol' Daizenshuu you mean? If that's the "official source" you refer to, then yes, it's literally impossible to make this scene plausible while adhering to its Dragon Ball power levels.

You have to use your own interpretation to do so. For me:

King Piccolo (young, full power) - 180
Son Gokuu (post-water) - 188
Tenshinhan (23rd tournament) - 225
Son Gokuu (23rd TB, weighted clothes) - 220
Son Gokuu (w/o weighted clothes) - 335

He has solidly surpassed the Gokuu from 3 years prior, an impressive feat to be certain. Ten has good reason to be confident. While he does grow stronger over the 5 year timeskip, it's not by that much due to him, y'kknow, just doing standard training in the mountains with only Chiaozu as a partner.

[ZombieVito]

It can fit just great. Tenshinhan was not confident because he was stronger. He was because he was way faster than Daimao or Goku.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Strength wise, Goku was said to far surpass his child-self, yet Tenshinhan was knocking around Goku with ease, as opposed to Goku taking all of Tenshinhan's hits while barely budging.

[LightBing]

~21st Budokai 20
~22nd Budokai 60
~Raditz arc 139

Don't you guys think it's kinda weird that the world famous Master Roshi trained his whole life and when he first shows up he is just about 20 BP to 5 BP for a normal human? He might have improved in 22nd TB Arc, but since he would not sign in the 23rd TB, why the heck he would even train? As said in 22nd TB that he would retire and let the new generation take over. Maybe he trained in that 5 years time of peace between 23rd TB Arc to Saiyan Arc, but was enough for him to jump 60 to 139? I mean he is a master, he knows a lot about training... It makes senses for me that he was strong all the time, but he suppressed his strength against Goku in 21st TB and then against Tenshinhan in 22nd TB he was going almost all out but still knows that he would probably lose that fight. My point is that against Daimao he already reached his 139 BP peak, I suppose.

During the 21st TB he didn't hold back against Goku. Half the time he's worried about losing, which he almost does. It isn't said but, by the time of his first appearance he's pretty much retired, living an easy live. That's why he's only as strong as Goku.
Before the 22nd TB, he admits to training because he doesn't want to lose. He gives up, although it isn't clear if he's weaker than Tenshinhan. At least he's in the same tier of power.

While he recognizes the new generation, I don't think he admits to stopping there. It's very possible he still trained for the 23rd TB, right before when asked if he would enter he admits to not keeping up with them. He might have trained to keep in shape, after the trauma of the reemergence of Piccolo Daimao.

What we know is that Master Roshi is prideful, he shows concern about not being number 1 multiple times. By the 22nd TB he says Tenshinhan might be stronger, by the 23rd he admits everyone is stronger than him (Yamcha, Kuririn and Chiaotzu).

I speculate that he continued training after Piccolo Daimao, gaining strength continuously, but now his students have begun to get ahead of him.

Here's my numbers, I'm in process of modifying them to comply to Piccolo's Daimo line of using less than half of his power against Goku. Which I now think, mirror's Goku's half power statement before the Cell Games. The intention to demonstrate the level of threat of the enemy, Piccolo Daimao and Perfect Cell respectively. It made sense to me that Piccolo Daimao is in a dimension high above all we had before.


Master Roshi
21st TB - 26
22nd TB - 80
23rd TB - 123
BoZ - 139 (Mostly from helping Kuririn train)

The numbers aren't final still working on them.

[Blackstripe]

It can fit just great. Tenshinhan was not confident because he was stronger. He was because he was way faster than Daimao or Goku.

Nonsense. Speed = ki/power level, just like every other stat.

Whenever someone boasts about their speed, they're stronger in general than the other character. People like Burter claiming they're the fastest in the universe end up being big jokes. He's shown more or less at the same level of speed as Jeesce. Similarly, Piccolo is indeed faster than 2nd form Freeza...because he is overall more powerful.

The literally only instance where there is a distinction is with USSJ, due to the user basically gorging their body on ki to an unnatural degree, causing them to become ponderous and slow. Cell even notes how silly and rudimentary the mistake is, noting that Vegeta knew of the form and it's weaknesses and so didn't use it.

Otherwise, when you increase your strength properly, everything goes up. Strength, speed, durability, etc. Ten shows no evidence of increasingly his power poorly in the 23rd Tournament.

The Daizenshuu's power levels for Dragon Ball are wonky.

[DanielSSJ]

Goku was able to outspeed Captain Ginyu without Kaioken, despite the latter being more powerful. Also, Captain Ginyu in Goku's body commented on how fast his new body was, despite being only able to put out a PL of 23,000, vastly inferior to his original one.

[Blackstripe]

Goku was able to outspeed Captain Ginyu without Kaioken, despite the latter being more powerful. Also, Captain Ginyu in Goku's body commented on how fast his new body was, despite being only able to put out a PL of 23,000, vastly inferior to his original one.

If you're suggesting 23,000 can be faster than 120,000, I'll laugh.

Hard.

Ginyu was perfectly able to strike Gokuu during their fight. He never once felt compelled to change bodies with him until he used his Kaioken.

[dbgtFO]

Goku was able to outspeed Captain Ginyu without Kaioken, despite the latter being more powerful. Also, Captain Ginyu in Goku's body commented on how fast his new body was, despite being only able to put out a PL of 23,000, vastly inferior to his original one.

If you're suggesting 23,000 can be faster than 120,000, I'll laugh.

Hard.

Ginyu was perfectly able to strike Gokuu during their fight. He never once felt compelled to change bodies with him until he used his Kaioken.

If you have a problem, then take it to Toriyama, he's the one who had Ginyu saying he was even faster in Goku's body.
Ginyu also noted that Goku was faster than him just before Goku used Kaio-ken.

[ZombieVito]

It can fit just great. Tenshinhan was not confident because he was stronger. He was because he was way faster than Daimao or Goku.

Nonsense. Speed = ki/power level, just like every other stat.

Whenever someone boasts about their speed, they're stronger in general than the other character. People like Burter claiming they're the fastest in the universe end up being big jokes. He's shown more or less at the same level of speed as Jeesce. Similarly, Piccolo is indeed faster than 2nd form Freeza...because he is overall more powerful.

The literally only instance where there is a distinction is with USSJ, due to the user basically gorging their body on ki to an unnatural degree, causing them to become ponderous and slow. Cell even notes how silly and rudimentary the mistake is, noting that Vegeta knew of the form and it's weaknesses and so didn't use it.

Otherwise, when you increase your strength properly, everything goes up. Strength, speed, durability, etc. Ten shows no evidence of increasingly his power poorly in the 23rd Tournament.

The Daizenshuu's power levels for Dragon Ball are wonky.

Not this nonsense again.

Tenshinhan was faster than a more powerful weighted Goku.
Burter was faster than Jeice and Reccome which have comparable powers to him if not equal.
Goku was stated to be faster than Ginyu.
Ginyu in Goku's body demonstrated speed equal to Jeice, yet he is way weaker.
Piccolo still believed he would be faster than Freeza after he powered up (This disproves the whole strength = speed BS).
Perfect Cell increased his speed and no power up was noted at all.
A SSJ2 Gohan thought he would out-speed Buu who's more powerful.

Bottom-line is that if you are a 10 in strength you are not warrantied to be a 10 in speed.

[Wizard Sesame]

I always figured that ki adds to a person's baseline. In other words, if your race is naturally strong and tough, let's say hypothetically like Recoome, then when you add ki to it, it'll just add to your already tough and strong exterior. For example:

Let's say your natural limit in lifting is 500 pounds, and my natural lifting limit is 100. We both have ki levels of 10, right? Let's say a ki level is used as a multiplier, so 500x10 and 100x10. 5000 vs 1000 in terms of ki-adjusted lifting limits. It doesn't mean that the 5000 will beat the 1000, but it does mean he or she can lift more in terms of weight.

When it comes to speed, I always just figured that Burter's race or mutation gave him a higher limit to his speed naturally without ki, which means that he can go even faster than people that may be a tad stronger than him in terms of ki.

[Blackstripe]

Not this nonsense again.

Tenshinhan was faster than a more powerful weighted Goku.
Burter was faster than Jeice and Reccome which have comparable powers to him if not equal.
Goku was stated to be faster than Ginyu.
Ginyu in Goku's body demonstrated speed equal to Jeice, yet he is way weaker.
Piccolo still believed he would be faster than Freeza after he powered up (This disproves the whole strength = speed BS).
Perfect Cell increased his speed and no power up was noted at all.
A SSJ2 Gohan thought he would out-speed Buu who's more powerful.

Bottom-line is that if you are a 10 in strength you are not warrantied to be a 10 in speed.

Where was weighted Goku shown to be more powerful than Tenshinhan?
Burter was NOT faster than Jeice to any meaningful degree. When they actually fought Gokuu, they seemed pretty much equal.
And yet...Ginyu had no trouble hitting him, and never felt he couldn't win until Gokuu used his Kaioken. If Gokuu was really so much faster, he wouldn't have even needed it.
I believe the power in Gokuu's body was steadily dropping over time. When he was keeping pace was Jeice, it likely wasn't down at 23,000. I mean, Kuririn and Gohan had to work together to overpower him. You think they're as fast as Jeice at that point?
So? Piccolo was still stronger than Freeza after he powered up, without his weights, anyhow.
Perfect Cell was always stronger than Gokuu throughout their fight. He just stopped holding back for the sake of a good fight, since Gohan was stronger. Cell offered Gokuu a senzu bean after he was exhausted because he had never even shown his real power yet.
SSJ2 Gohan was clearly wrong.

Unless you're using a broken form like USSJ, then 10 power equals 10 speed.

[dbgtFO]

In regards to Butta, there's this page of him and Jheese rushing at Goku, where Butta starts out behind Jhesse, but easily outspeeds him to reach Goku first, so that's at least Toriyama showing us that he was indeed faster, even though his power is on par with Jheese.

[Blackstripe]

Spoiler:

...And they land at pretty much the same time. See the little effect by their feet showing them touching down by Gokuu together?

Such scans are quite subjective when they can be interpreted many different ways.

[dbgtFO]

If you have a different interpretation of the page I posted, by all means share it.
Them landing in the same panel isn't indicative of Jheese being as fast as Butta, because as soon as Butta stops or slows down, it will obviously not take more than a second for Jheese to catch up given the relative short distance they travelled, thus the one panel.
Even when they actually fight Goku later, we see a clear difference between how many punches and kicks they can throw at Goku:

Spoiler:

2nd panel
Jheese: 1 punch thrown.
Butta: 3 punches thrown.

3rd panel
Jheese: 1 kick attempted.
Butta: 3 kicks attempted.

Butta is simply much faster than Jheese, they don't hype up his speed for nothing.

[Blackstripe]

If you have a different interpretation of the page I posted, by all means share it.
Them landing in the same panel isn't indicative of Jheese being as fast as Butta, because as soon as Butta stops or slows down, it will obviously not take more than a second for Jheese to catch up given the relative short distance they travelled, thus the one panel.
Even when they actually fight Goku later, we see a clear difference between how many punches and kicks they can throw at Goku:

Spoiler:

2nd panel
Jheese: 1 punch thrown.
Butta: 3 punches thrown.

3rd panel
Jheese: 1 kick attempted.
Butta: 3 kicks attempted.

Butta is simply much faster than Jheese, they don't hype up his speed for nothing.

I dunno, I'm actually seeing two punches by Jeesce in the 2nd panel there, his left fist is clearly in the after stages of a swing.

As for my interpretation, I interpret as being too ambiguous. Now, if, say, Gokuu was clearly having trouble dodging one more than the other, or commented on Burter's speed, there wouldn't be room for argument here. But being like: "See? He's ahead here, or he's throwing more punches here!" feels too subjective for my tastes.

[ahill1]

It can fit just great. Tenshinhan was not confident because he was stronger. He was because he was way faster than Daimao or Goku.

Please I know you know that Tenshinhan (23rd Budokai) is stronger than Piccolo Daimao Young. But you won't see it only because the Daizenshuu, but everything is in the manga. Tenshithands has shown strength on par with Goku (with weights) and the latter had a much larger force than it was 3 years ago.

[ZombieVito]

I can't believe this is still a thing.

We have a stronger character saying that a weaker one is faster.

A 10 in strength does not warrantied a 10 in speed. PERIOD.