Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[Truhan]

Why are you thinking that they need to be doubled or more? Goku's just that strong because his base is just that much higher than Vegeta's, so that while Vegeta's using a form that may push past the 50x multiplier of Super Saiya-jin (and, by extension, FpSsj) he's still that much weaker than Goku.

The two situations are as simple as it comes in interpretation. Goku says he uses about half his strength, and Vegeta (w/o knowing that Goku was only using half) says that Goku surpassed him. Thus, Goku's best is somewhere around twice Vegeta's best.

FP SSJ is the same multiplier as a SSJ (50 times the fighter's strength) with maximized Ki (or Power), while Grades push it further with a loss on some other attribute(s). Since I'm considering 1.25 times 50 the increase in strength and speed for Grade II, while 1.6 times more than that describes Grade III (comparable to SSJ2, but with speed and stamina loss), Vegeta's 960 would be lowered to 600 the moment he reverted to just SSJ, while Goku would enjoy 1'200 all the same. Two times more than Vegeta's, but the question is that Power was being measured, and not Strength, despite the inconsistencies with how Dragon Ball addresses them.

[Darkprince410]

FP SSJ is the same multiplier as a SSJ (50 times the fighter's strength) with maximized Ki (or Power), while Grades push it further with a loss on some other attribute(s). Since I'm considering 1.25 times 50 the increase in strength and speed for Grade II, while 1.6 times more than that describes Grade III (comparable to SSJ2, but with speed and stamina loss), Vegeta's 960 would be lowered to 600 the moment he reverted to just SSJ, while Goku would enjoy 1'200 all the same. Two times more than Vegeta's, but the question is that Power was being measured, and not Strength, despite the inconsistencies with how Dragon Ball addresses them.

Dragon Ball hasn't been inconsistent with power and strength though. Power has always been tied to strength, with ki increases always being associated with an increase in strength. The only way that Vegeta's comment towards Goku's increase would work is if he's saying Goku's strength/power (again, at ~50%) was above Vegeta's best at the time. Not just his own Ssj form or anything like that, but above his best, thus, above his 960 million.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

There is literally no problem with the Kaioshin being shocked at Base Vegeta's power because he has never seen mortals be that strong. Even if they aren't as powerful as Freeza. And we all know that the Kaioshin's estimations of Babidi's troops wasn't exactly accurate as he would be able to tell that Pui Pui was no match for Vegeta if he wasn't so afraid of Babidi and his henchmen with the reputation surrounding them.

Actually, Kaioshin had already admitted inferiority to Goku when he first meets him and wanted their help because he "didn't think he could win" against the enemy, so being mortals isn't the point. He was simply shocked at Vegeta's power output.

Goku and the others have all faced characters stronger than Freeza anyway. So there is no reason for them to be shocked at something other than someone being stronger than them, if only in their base form.

You keep saying "they", but Goku was the only one who thought it was impressive. No one else cared. Vegeta was annoyed that his mind was read. Also, Goku heard from Piccolo's mouth that Kaioshin dwarfed him in power. Piccolo can obviously destroy Freeza with ease, so the feat in itself is not a big deal. It isn't anything new. Goku was simply reacting to what Kaioshin said. There doesn't need to be a hidden meaning there.

Had Goku and the other Saiyans all have been similar to the Kaioshin in regards to being able to one-shot Freeza, even in base form, then there is literally no reason for them to be shocked. And I don't know why this is being disputed now anyway seeing as BoG and DBS already suggest Base Goku couldn't handle Freeza.

Except they can one-shot Freeza with ease. The feat alone means absolutely nothing by this point in the series. No one's debating Base Goku is weaker than Freeza. At least I'm not. What's being debated is the scene somehow telling us that Goku is impressed by the fact that Kaioshin could "naturally" defeat Freeza because he can't, despite that having absolutely nothing to do with the statement whatsoever. What you're trying to do is separate Base Goku from Super Saiyan Goku when it's still Goku reacting to the statement.

And if you want to go further then there is no way the combined population of Earth and Namek would have enough Genki to defeat Pure Boo if Goku's base form was stronger than 100% Freeza either.

Like I said, I don't think Base Goku is stronger than Freeza. Goku is Goku. Period. Him making a statement with black hair or golden hair makes no difference. It's the same guy.

[Hitiro]

There is literally no problem with the Kaioshin being shocked at Base Vegeta's power because he has never seen mortals be that strong. Even if they aren't as powerful as Freeza. And we all know that the Kaioshin's estimations of Babidi's troops wasn't exactly accurate as he would be able to tell that Pui Pui was no match for Vegeta if he wasn't so afraid of Babidi and his henchmen with the reputation surrounding them.

Actually, Kaioshin had already admitted inferiority to Goku when he first meets him and wanted their help because he "didn't think he could win" against the enemy, so being mortals isn't the point. He was simply shocked at Vegeta's power output.

And that is a problem why? The Kaioshin and Kibito knew the Saiyans could turn SSJ. So them being that strong in base would be shocking still. Because if you consider he just saw SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament then there is absolutely no reason for him to be shocked unless Vegeta's power output is somehow superior to a SSJ2 Gohan.

Goku and the others have all faced characters stronger than Freeza anyway. So there is no reason for them to be shocked at something other than someone being stronger than them, if only in their base form.

You keep saying "they", but Goku was the only one who thought it was impressive. No one else cared. Vegeta was annoyed that his mind was read. Also, Goku heard from Piccolo's mouth that Kaioshin dwarfed him in power. Piccolo can obviously destroy Freeza with ease, so the feat in itself is not a big deal. It isn't anything new. Goku was simply reacting to what Kaioshin said. There doesn't need to be a hidden meaning there.

Actually Vegeta also had a shock bubble below Kaioshin's statement. And we never got a panel of Piccolo with his statement. But then Piccolo probably already had an understanding of his strength from before anyway. It was only Goku and the others that were questioning if he was actually strong.

Had Goku and the other Saiyans all have been similar to the Kaioshin in regards to being able to one-shot Freeza, even in base form, then there is literally no reason for them to be shocked. And I don't know why this is being disputed now anyway seeing as BoG and DBS already suggest Base Goku couldn't handle Freeza.

Except they can one-shot Freeza with ease. The feat alone means absolutely nothing by this point in the series. No one's debating Base Goku is weaker than Freeza. At least I'm not. What's being debated is the scene somehow telling us that Goku is impressed by the fact that Kaioshin could "naturally" defeat Freeza because he can't, despite that having absolutely nothing to do with the statement whatsoever. What you're trying to do is separate Base Goku from Super Saiyan Goku when it's still Goku reacting to the statement.

Like I said, it makes no sense for them to be shocked unless the Kaioshin is superior to them in some regard. And with his statement that was confirmed. Hence the shock. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason for the characters to react that way. It isn't just about him being able to on-shot Freeza with ease. It's about the actual fact that they were shocked rather than surprised. How else do you explain their shock? You're saying that there is no relevance in his reaction to Kaioshin's statement when there is. And it would only make sense if it lead to the Kaioshin being superior to them in some respect. Which he is. Otherwise they would have been surprised by the statement but not shocked.

And if you want to go further then there is no way the combined population of Earth and Namek would have enough Genki to defeat Pure Boo if Goku's base form was stronger than 100% Freeza either.

Like I said, I don't think Base Goku is stronger than Freeza. Goku is Goku. Period. Him making a statement with black hair or golden hair makes no difference. It's the same guy.

Then there is no reason for him to be shocked. Which is what I keep telling you. There must be a reason for them to be shocked otherwise they would merely be surprised if it had no relevance to natural strength. I would imagine Goku is thinking something like "There are guys who are naturally this strong in the universe? It took me SSJ to beat Freeza and it would probably still take me SSJ to beat him." And in FnF Gohan pretty much makes a similar statement about Goku and him needing SSJ.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because if you consider he just saw SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament then there is absolutely no reason for him to be shocked unless Vegeta's power output is somehow superior to a SSJ2 Gohan.

He had forgotten Gohan's power up until after Vegeta's fight with Pocus.

I'm also not arguing against the base Saiyans' power compared to Freeza's, neither is Turlast; just that the instance being discussed with Goku's shock at Kaioshin's statement doesn't necessitate Goku being weaker than Freeza in base, it's up to interpretation. Saying Goku needs to be weaker than Freeza for his shock to make sense is completely arbitrary.

Actually Vegeta also had a shock bubble below Kaioshin's statement.

Could just be because he didn't expect to get his mind read.

[Hitiro]

He had forgotten Gohan's power up until after Vegeta's fight with Pocus.

I'm also not arguing against the base Saiyans' power compared to Freeza's, neither is Turlast; just that the instance being discussed with Goku's shock at Kaioshin's statement doesn't necessitate Goku being weaker than Freeza in base, it's up to interpretation. Saying Goku needs to be weaker than Freeza for his shock to make sense is completely arbitrary.

Again it makes no sense for him to be shocked in this instance unless it was necessitating him being weaker than Freeza in base. Otherwise he has nothing to be shocked about. Because he would also be able to fell Freeza in one blow with his natural power.

Actually Vegeta also had a shock bubble below Kaioshin's statement.

Could just be because he didn't expect to get his mind read.

No, he had two of these shock bubbles. One for when the Kaioshin read his mind and said "No, Vegeta." And then a following shock bubble after he exaplained that there were four other Kaioshin all with the power to fell Freeza in one blow. Unless he was somehow "doubly" shocked that he read his mind? I don't think so.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Again it makes no sense for him to be shocked in this instance unless it was necessitating him being weaker than Freeza in base. Otherwise he has nothing to be shocked about. Because he would also be able to fell Freeza in one blow with his natural power.

That's your opinion, I'm cool with it, I just don't agree with it.

No, he had two of these shock bubbles. One for when the Kaioshin read his mind and said "No, Vegeta." And then a following shock bubble after he exaplained that there were four other Kaioshin all with the power to fell Freeza in one blow.

Ah, okay. Sorry about that, I had actually forgotten evidently and was going off what I thought I remembered. Anywho, that makes it a bit contradictory, no? Piccolo told Vegeta and the others that Kaioshin was stronger than himself, so Vegeta should've already known Kaioshin was stronger than Freeza by virtue of being stronger than Piccolo, correct?

Unless he was somehow "doubly" shocked that he read his mind? I don't think so.

Was this even necessary?

[Hitiro]

That's your opinion, I'm cool with it, I just don't agree with it.

Then why are they shocked? Why aren't they just surprised?

No, he had two of these shock bubbles. One for when the Kaioshin read his mind and said "No, Vegeta." And then a following shock bubble after he exaplained that there were four other Kaioshin all with the power to fell Freeza in one blow.

Ah, okay. Sorry about that, I had actually forgotten evidently and was going off what I thought I remembered. Anywho, that makes it a bit contradictory, no? Piccolo told Vegeta and the others that Kaioshin was stronger than himself, so Vegeta should've already known Kaioshin was stronger than Freeza by virtue of being stronger than Piccolo, correct?

It's debatable because Goku had a hard time believe that when Piccolo told him. He literally asked Piccolo "Is he that strong?" so obviously Goku and the others had doubts.

Unless he was somehow "doubly" shocked that he read his mind? I don't think so.

Was this even necessary?

I didn't know how to put it any better. But yeah, there were two shock bubbles and I highly doubt that both shock bubbles were for the same thing.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Then why are they shocked? Why aren't they just surprised?

You seem to be missing my point. What you think makes sense is subjective. Debating entails using objective evidence, otherwise you can't call the other side wrong. Unless there is an explicit statement with Goku or Vegeta saying "I can't even do that in my base form", then the scene can be interpreted differently. I've already shared my opinion on why I believe Goku was shocked and don't feel the need to again.

It's debatable because Goku had a hard time believe that when Piccolo told him. He literally asked Piccolo "Is he that strong?" so obviously Goku and the others had doubts.

Goku asked, that means Vegeta had his doubts? And Piccolo didn't contradict Goku when he asked, so I doubt Goku's initiative was to think "Oh well he must be lying to us."

I didn't know how to put it any better. But yeah, there were two shock bubbles and I highly doubt that both shock bubbles were for the same thing.

I'm aware, I just hadn't known at the time there were two shock bubbles because I didn't actually check. There was no need for the condescending attitude.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

And that is a problem why? The Kaioshin and Kibito knew the Saiyans could turn SSJ.

Just like Goku knew he could turn Super Saiyan and one-shot Freeza when he reacted to Kaioshin's statement. So yeah.

So them being that strong in base would be shocking still. Because if you consider he just saw SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament then there is absolutely no reason for him to be shocked unless Vegeta's power output is somehow superior to a SSJ2 Gohan.

After Kaioshin says "they're...this strong" when he see's Vegeta wipe Pui-Pui out, he questions if "Super Saiyan is really that strong" despite seeing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. It's very clear that the character's dialogue is totally lacking in consistency. What we know is Freeza is completely disregarded by Kaioshin, while Vegeta's power is enough to stun him. So if we're going by reactions, Vegeta's amazing power is already put in higher regard than Freeza's by Kaioshin.

Actually Vegeta also had a shock bubble below Kaioshin's statement. And we never got a panel of Piccolo with his statement. But then Piccolo probably already had an understanding of his strength from before anyway. It was only Goku and the others that were questioning if he was actually strong.

He had no idea he could read his mind and was quite annoyed by it like he says. There's also the connection with Freeza.

Like I said, it makes no sense for them to be shocked unless the Kaioshin is superior to them in some regard. And with his statement that was confirmed. Hence the shock. Otherwise there is absolutely no reason for the characters to react that way.

Why does there have to be some underlying reason why Goku thinks this is impressive? Is it that much of a stretch for Goku to find it amazing that Kaioshin (whom he can't sense) can do something like this without including himself in the matter?

It isn't just about him being able to on-shot Freeza with ease. It's about the actual fact that they were shocked rather than surprised. How else do you explain their shock?

You're blowing this out of proportion. Goku thinks it's amazing and that's it. The statement was put there to establish Majin Boo>5 Kaioshins>Freeza and nothing more. It has 0 to do with the Saiyans or their Base states. Can Goku one-shot Freeza at all? If you agree that he can, then the statement means absolutely nothing in regards to their capabilities because there's no actual comparison. So what if Goku has to turn on Super Saiyan like a flashlight (it is an effortless change) and do it? The point is that he and the others can do it, so the feat in itself is yesterday's news.

You're saying that there is no relevance in his reaction to Kaioshin's statement when there is. And it would only make sense if it lead to the Kaioshin being superior to them in some respect. Which he is. Otherwise they would have been surprised by the statement but not shocked.

I already showed what the point of the statement was above. The only actual comparison was made by Vegeta, who thought Boo was nothing special because the Saiyans could cause destruction. Outside of that? Nothing. Goku is impressed that Kaioshin makes it clear what he and his people could do to Freeza, and how they were all powerless to stop Boo. That's it. Kaioshin doesn't need to be superior to anyone based on that alone.

Then there is no reason for him to be shocked. Which is what I keep telling you.

You're clearly exaggerating Goku's "shock", which is more of a "Oh, wow! Awesome" rather than a "Well, shit. I can't do that without! Super Saiyan" reaction, anyway.

There must be a reason for them to be shocked otherwise they would merely be surprised if it had no relevance to natural strength.

Or Goku is impressed because guys who can one-shot Freeza were powerless to defeat this Majin Boo. Simple and very likely.

I would imagine Goku is thinking something like "There are guys who are naturally this strong in the universe? It took me SSJ to beat Freeza and it would probably still take me SSJ to beat him." And in FnF Gohan pretty much makes a similar statement about Goku and him needing SSJ.

I would imagine Goku didn't think too hard about it because he was focusing on Kaioshin's story about Majin Boo. Instead of needing for it to have some connection to Goku's Base form, I look at it as "Wow. These Kaioshin's were strong enough to defeat Freeza easily and yet 4 of them were no match for this Majin Boo. Cool."

It's simple and doesn't need to unnecessarily bring the Base Saiyans into the equation--since it has nothing to do with them in the first place. Kaioshin's not the first, nor the last who can defeat Freeza. It's old news.

[Truhan]

Dragon Ball hasn't been inconsistent with power and strength though. Power has always been tied to strength, with ki increases always being associated with an increase in strength. The only way that Vegeta's comment towards Goku's increase would work is if he's saying Goku's strength/power (again, at ~50%) was above Vegeta's best at the time. Not just his own Ssj form or anything like that, but above his best, thus, above his 960 million.

Well, I forgot the forum section I was in... And you didn't notice a miscalculation of mine: 960 divided by 1.25 is not 600, so Goku cannot be two times stronger than regular SSJ Vegeta at 1'200'000. It just means I have to update the numbers, although I won't post them here. It also means that I disagree with the notion of Power and Strength being the same thing. Just because Piccolo charged his Ki against Raditz doesn't mean that he could punch a hole through him. That power would have to eventually fuel his strength. Proof of inconsistency with the terms is that Goku wasted Ki to ascend past the level of a SSJ in front of Gohan, who I believe said that he had incredible power. However, it's quite apparent that his strength was fueled at a speed loss. It all becomes clearer when SSJ2 and SSJ3 scans refer to them as Strength multipliers, without speed or stamina taking a hit, but power instead. Why do you think Goku had to charge Ki for an attack against Kid Buu? Nothing would come out of him getting more "powerful" (as in stronger).

[LightBing]

I just want to bring this to the discussion, from the most recent episode of Super:

Spoiler:

Minute: 17
Context: Whis provides highly detailed expository dialogue.
Oracle Fish: "Maybe your training is a bit too tough? At this rate, those two are going to die. You could at least have them become those "Super Saiyan" things."
Whis: "That wouldn't do, at all."
Oracle Fish: "It wouldn't?"
Whis: "Those two have just barely reached the level where they can sense the ki of a god. If that castle up there were the level of the gods, then their power is only about this high. They need to raise the level of their ki without becoming Super Saiyan. Otherwise, they won't be able to grow much stronger, since they won't be able to see the realm which lies ahead. Most likely, those two realize this themselves. After all, I never once told them not to become Super Saiyans."
Oracle Fish: "Well, whatever. Just don't kill them."

Significance:
Whis' explanation reaffirms Toriyama's statement made in Saikyō Jump's June 2014 issue, quoted below:

Akira Toriyama-sensei - Majin Buu Arc Top-Secret Q&A! wrote:
Goku endlessly keeps getting stronger, with Super Saiyan 3 in the manga and Super Saiyan 4 in the anime; does Super Saiyan keep getting limitlessly stronger too? Might we eventually see things such as a Super Saiyan 5…?!
Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

This is noticeable in the manga. After being left in the dust by the Androids the first thing they thought was, let's surpass Super Saiyan... Then they decided to master it, until more forms pop out. The Saiyans power increase came from the transformations, they trained to get new ones.
Perfect example is Goku, what he got from those seven years in the Otherworld was two Super Saiyan transformations, one to put him on par with Gohan and the other to put him ahead.
We have no way to know if their base increased, but the Saiyans post-Freeza focused on training their Super Saiyan form, that's a fact.

[Darkprince410]

Dragon Ball hasn't been inconsistent with power and strength though. Power has always been tied to strength, with ki increases always being associated with an increase in strength. The only way that Vegeta's comment towards Goku's increase would work is if he's saying Goku's strength/power (again, at ~50%) was above Vegeta's best at the time. Not just his own Ssj form or anything like that, but above his best, thus, above his 960 million.

Well, I forgot the forum section I was in... And you didn't notice a miscalculation of mine: 960 divided by 1.25 is not 600, so Goku cannot be two times stronger than regular SSJ Vegeta at 1'200'000. It just means I have to update the numbers, although I won't post them here. It also means that I disagree with the notion of Power and Strength being the same thing. Just because Piccolo charged his Ki against Raditz doesn't mean that he could punch a hole through him. That power would have to eventually fuel his strength. Proof of inconsistency with the terms is that Goku wasted Ki to ascend past the level of a SSJ in front of Gohan, who I believe said that he had incredible power. However, it's quite apparent that his strength was fueled at a speed loss. It all becomes clearer when SSJ2 and SSJ3 scans refer to them as Strength multipliers, without speed or stamina taking a hit, but power instead. Why do you think Goku had to charge Ki for an attack against Kid Buu? Nothing would come out of him getting more "powerful" (as in stronger).

In Super Saiya-jin 3's case, he was simply re-collecting the ki he had lost because he was burning through it so quickly due to the form's massive ki drain. It wasn't a change or an increase of his ki output from its previous level, but simply an attempt to restore the ki he was burning off. This isn't the same as an actual ki increase (such as with the case of South Kaioushin Buu). I didn't notice the other miscalculation because your primary calculation in that instance is wrong. There's no other way to take those two lines than what I've mentioned before, that it was clearly showing that Goku had surpassed Vegeta's best strength/power despite only being at around half his strength, so Goku ~50% > Vegeta's 960 mil (according to your list). While we've been shown before that strength/power can go up at the cost of speed in the situation of Ssj 3rd Grade, nothing at any point has been shown that "power" can go up when "strength" doesn't, or vice versa.

A battle power is a measurement of an individual's ki level at the time, and their ki level at the time determines how strong they are. As such, again, the only way the two bits of dialogue work is if Goku's ~50% strength/power was above Vegeta's maximum at the time, which would mean, if Vegeta were at 960 mil, Goku would need to be around the 2 billion mark.

[Hitiro]

And that is a problem why? The Kaioshin and Kibito knew the Saiyans could turn SSJ.

Just like Goku knew he could turn Super Saiyan and one-shot Freeza when he reacted to Kaioshin's statement. So yeah.

And this is relevant how? Nobody in the universe up till this point has ever surpassed Freeza without the use of some gimmick. For the Saiyans they had the SSJ transformations. For Piccolo a large part of it was Namekian fusion. For Cell it was being genetically modified to be like that. For the Androids it was that they were mechanically engineered that way to combat Goku's progressive growth. This is the first time they have met a being that is naturally stronger than Freeza without some sort of aid. That is what shocked them. Otherwise if the Saiyans could go about in their base form and one-shot Freeza at this point then there is literally no reason for them to be shocked.

Likewise the Kaioshin thought that Goku and the other Saiyans power solely came from their transformations. So he would be surprised when Base Vegeta was so strong even without his transformations.

So them being that strong in base would be shocking still. Because if you consider he just saw SSJ2 Gohan at the tournament then there is absolutely no reason for him to be shocked unless Vegeta's power output is somehow superior to a SSJ2 Gohan.

After Kaioshin says "they're...this strong" when he see's Vegeta wipe Pui-Pui out, he questions if "Super Saiyan is really that strong" despite seeing Super Saiyan 2 Gohan. It's very clear that the character's dialogue is totally lacking in consistency. What we know is Freeza is completely disregarded by Kaioshin, while Vegeta's power is enough to stun him. So if we're going by reactions, Vegeta's amazing power is already put in higher regard than Freeza's by Kaioshin.

There is really nothing wrong with Kaioshin's dialogue with regard to how strong the Saiyans are. It really isn't inconsistent because the Saiyans can still vary their battle powers even as SSJ's and SSJ2's. He even mentioned that they could call forth much more power if necessary and what Gohan demonstrated at the tournament may not have been his full power. As far as the Kaioshin knows the Saiyans should only be able to fight Freeza-level characters with their transformations. He more than likely pegged them as weak in their base forms. Like Goku was weak when he first fought Freeza with only a battle power of 3 million. He could be as much as 60 million now which is impressive. It's one of those "They are this strong without transforming?" moments which we see a few times afterwards too. I mean Piccolo even was astonished Gohan was as strong as he was without SSJ. So was Goku. And then in FnF they are all shocked that Goku can handle Freeza while only using his base form.

Why does there have to be some underlying reason why Goku thinks this is impressive? Is it that much of a stretch for Goku to find it amazing that Kaioshin (whom he can't sense) can do something like this without including himself in the matter?

Because it is natural for the Kaioshin to be this strong when others don't have that privilege? As I said above everyone that surpasses Freeza has had the benefit of some gimmick that helped them get to that level. It was never natural. So why wouldn't it be shocking that another being with this natural amount of strength could exist in the universe? And another 5 of them at that. And then a further 1 more being that could easily beat those 5. It took Goku and the others a lot of effort to get to where they were by the Boo arc and they still weren't as strong as Freeza without transforming. Yet another 6 beings are confirmed to be that strong just from the get go. That is what is shocking.

I really don't understand why this can't be seen. If it isn't a comparison of their natural strengths and, at least, Goku thinking even they can't do that after all those years without transforming yet these beings could and have been able to for thousands of years then there is literally no reason for him or Vegeta to be shocked.

It isn't just about him being able to on-shot Freeza with ease. It's about the actual fact that they were shocked rather than surprised. How else do you explain their shock?

You're blowing this out of proportion. Goku thinks it's amazing and that's it. The statement was put there to establish Majin Boo>5 Kaioshins>Freeza and nothing more. It has 0 to do with the Saiyans or their Base states. Can Goku one-shot Freeza at all? If you agree that he can, then the statement means absolutely nothing in regards to their capabilities because there's no actual comparison. So what if Goku has to turn on Super Saiyan like a flashlight (it is an effortless change) and do it? The point is that he and the others can do it, so the feat in itself is yesterday's news.

I don't know how you can say that the statement means absolutely nothing in regards to their capabilities. Because I keep telling you the Saiyans just aren't that strong naturally and even after all the effort they've been through they still need to rely on their transformations to fight against foes like Freeza. Even if they could potentially one-shot him in their SSJ forms now. The fact is they aren't naturally that strong like the Kaioshin and Freeza was. They have to depend on an alternative method other than their natural strength to be comparable. And so have all the others that have surpassed Freeza.

You're clearly exaggerating Goku's "shock", which is more of a "Oh, wow! Awesome" rather than a "Well, shit. I can't do that without! Super Saiyan" reaction, anyway.

I'm hardly exaggerating because his dialogue was placed in a bubble which is used primarily for being shocked rather than surprised.

There must be a reason for them to be shocked otherwise they would merely be surprised if it had no relevance to natural strength.

Or Goku is impressed because guys who can one-shot Freeza were powerless to defeat this Majin Boo. Simple and very likely.

That would make little to no difference because both Goku and Vegeta would be capable of doing that to the Kaioshin too with their SSJ2 forms. And Goku could with his SSJ3 form. So again, there must be more to it than that. Otherwise there is no reason for either Goku or Vegeta to be shocked. Because they are very much capable of handing the Kaioshin their asses by this point.

I would imagine Goku is thinking something like "There are guys who are naturally this strong in the universe? It took me SSJ to beat Freeza and it would probably still take me SSJ to beat him." And in FnF Gohan pretty much makes a similar statement about Goku and him needing SSJ.

I would imagine Goku didn't think too hard about it because he was focusing on Kaioshin's story about Majin Boo. Instead of needing for it to have some connection to Goku's Base form, I look at it as "Wow. These Kaioshin's were strong enough to defeat Freeza easily and yet 4 of them were no match for this Majin Boo. Cool."

Except that wouldn't be an impressive feat by any standard at this point. Any of the Saiyan's should be able to defeat the 5 Kaioshin with their SSJ2 forms at least. Probably even SSJ by this point. So no, there is no reason to be impressed unless it was taking into consideration more than that.

It's simple and doesn't need to unnecessarily bring the Base Saiyans into the equation--since it has nothing to do with them in the first place. Kaioshin's not the first, nor the last who can defeat Freeza. It's old news.

But as I said, the Kaioshin is the first being who is naturally stronger than Freeza without some sort of gimmick. So it's not old news. This is rather new for Goku and the others to meet someone who was naturally capable of handling Freeza. And to hear that there were 5 other beings who were also naturally capable is also shocking.

[Hugo Boss]

We have no way to know if their base increased, but the Saiyans post-Freeza focused on training their Super Saiyan form, that's a fact.

Despite this, don't you think training as Super Saiyans would make great improvements in their regular states as well? Perhaps focusing on transformations and magic power-ups was their only chance to become stronger in old Dragon Ball days, while new Dragon Ball is depicting the training without transformations a tougher and more efficient way to surpass those old methods.

[miguelnuva1]

I've seen people put Goku at 100m at base in the Buu saga and all the gaps worked fine. I could do something like this

Buu saga: 115 million
BoG/Super: 119.5 million

He's weaker than Frieza but getting close.

[Hitiro]

I've seen people put Goku at 100m at base in the Buu saga and all the gaps worked fine. I could do something like this

Buu saga: 115 million
BoG/Super: 119.5 million

He's weaker than Freeza but getting close.

The gap would have to be larger than that. The way Beerus talks he makes it seem like Goku couldn't have won at that strength. If he was 119.5 million then they would be more or less equal. Generally a gap of 25% has been shown for a fight to be pretty unwinnable. So if anything Goku would be something like 96 million. We also have to take into consideration that the Earthlings Genki was enough to fight against Pure Boo. So we can't have Boo arc Goku very high. Even assuming that the Earth's population is 6-8 billion and that only 33% of Ki amounts to Genki plus an average battle power of 5 we get something like: (8 mill * 5) * 0.33 = 13.2 billion in battle power. Goku with a battle power of 60 million would be at 24 million as a SSJ3. If we push him up to nearly double that then the Earthlings aren't going to contribute much.

[LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta]

bog is written by a toriyama that had to be told ssj3 isn't ssj2.....so when beerus sensed goku,its not legit,also goku wasn't powered up,he was at his normal surpreseed state. anyone who thinks base goku in even the cell arc would lose to frieza or even when he first meet trunks does NOPT know goku. he got 15x stronger in 6 days to namek,he grow like CRAZY!

[LightBing]

We have no way to know if their base increased, but the Saiyans post-Freeza focused on training their Super Saiyan form, that's a fact.

Despite this, don't you think training as Super Saiyans would make great improvements in their regular states as well? Perhaps focusing on transformations and magic power-ups was their only chance to become stronger in old Dragon Ball days, while new Dragon Ball is depicting the training without transformations a tougher and more efficient way to surpass those old methods.

No, marginal gains at best. It seems the Super Saiyan states are separated from one's regular form. Goku training in the RoSaT and after, shows - in my oppinion - this reasoning:

Base Power + SSJ Power = Total Power
Since SSJ gives a bigger percentage of the total, it's better to focus on it.

And a quote to illustrate:
Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P7.2-7
Tenshinhan: “…Hey, Goku and Gohan were Super Saiyans just now, right? But even so, they were very…how do I say this?...Natural-feeling…”
Piccolo: “…I think there’s no doubt that they were Super Saiyans…However, they’ve trained so that they can exist in that state at an ordinary, everyday level…”
Trunks: “S-so then…When they fight, they’ll [perform] an ev-even more tremendous transformation…!”
Vegeta: “Are you an idiot?...You don’t seem to think things over…They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [ ] They’ve thought this through…”

I agree that, in the old days it was impossible for characters to grow their base to catch up with their transformations, the exception being Ultimate Gohan (funny that it was provided by a God, the same way Vegeta is getting there). But they could continued improving SSJ, instead of repeating their mistakes and using SSJ2 and SSJ3. Goku was clear, the best way is to train SSJ. The results were also there, he went from weaker than the androids to moderately close to Perfect Cell.
Now..., had Goku trained to strengthen his SSJ form during the 7 year period, would he be stronger than SSJ3? Probably not, however following that route again was a digression.

[Hitiro]

bog is written by a toriyama that had to be told ssj3 isn't ssj2.....so when beerus sensed goku,its not legit,also goku wasn't powered up,he was at his normal surpreseed state. anyone who thinks base goku in even the cell arc would lose to Freeza or even when he first meet trunks does NOPT know goku. he got 15x stronger in 6 days to namek,he grow like CRAZY!

Goku ams the others had tapped their gains by the time of the android arc. They were no longer getting the gains you suggest. Otherwise Goku and the others would already be much much stronger than Cell with just a year's worth of training. The Daizenshuu also puts SSJ2 at only 2x stronger than SSJ. How would Goku or Vegeta not greatly surpass SSJ2 Gohan in 7 years if they still had those tremendous gains? Also, like I said, how would a Genki-Dama powered by the Earthlings even scratch Boo if Goku's base exceeded Freeza long ago?

I provided very optimistic numbers to get the Genki-Dama up as high as I could and in all likelihood they are incredibly generous numbers. I highly doubt that there are even 6 billion people on Earth in Dragon Ball. Let alone 8 billon. A great portion of the world is barren or dangerous due to the wildlife. So that doesn't offer many paces to live.

It would literally only make sense if Goku didn't go through that many gains after the Name arc.