Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Birusu16]

The tension is non-existent already because 1) its Dragon Ball and 2) all this new stuff is before Oob and since Oob has to happen for this to work with the manga, nothing bad will/can happen for anyone. Besides, Beerus not being sextillion times stronger than Vegetto like everyone, their grandma and annoying dog like to think he is can be easily handwaved with: Goku is arrogant and doesn't want anyone else's help to fight Beerus and Vegeta doesn't wanna fuse with Goku again, least of all permanently.

1. Why are you quoting a post I made months ago?
2. Oob does not have to happen. He can easily be retconned and thrown out.
3. The Beerus and Vegetto point is irrelevant as Super has kept the exact same statements and implications as BoGs, which are that Beerus is FAR stronger than Vegetto.

It was months old? Weird, I saw it mixed in with the newer stuff lol. Must've been a glitch or something.
Oob is part of the manga, so unless Toriyama's only worthwhile as a defense cruch for any criticism or excuse, he's happening.
A statement which is based on a Goku who's arrogant enough to think he doesn't need anyone's help even though that's the only reason he beat Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Boo and can't sense Beerus' power for shit. So yeah, Goku is an unreliable source of power information in this case.

1. Yes, it was months old.
2. Doesn't matter if he's part of the manga. Super doesn't need to follow the manga exactly. Uub was a pointless addition anyway and added nothing to the story.
3. There's nothing unreliable about it. He fought Beerus and was beaten with a ridiculous amount of ease and estimated that not even Vegetto would be enough. You can choose to deny if you want, but the facts and implications don't change, both of which suggest Beerus is leagues above Vegetto. Not to mention his feats absolutely dwarf anything Vegetto's done.

[LightBing]

And that brings up the problem I stated earlier. If we're going to assume that Whis knows how to tap into that power, we can also assume he always knew how to do it, and that basically turns the premise of the BoG arc futile.

Apparently Whis can do it by training. It appears once one has reached a certain tier, it's possible to start feeling god ki. Maybe even use it (SSB), they still have time to explain that.

It doesn't make BoG futile, because Whis can't just give the power. He can train you to get to that level. It safe to assume, Beerus was in the same level(or weaker) as Vegeta and didn't have a Super God Neko ritual to give him it's powers. Plus in BoG, the need for a SSJG was the urgency of a capricious God that needed to be satisfied immediately or everyone would be killed.

So how strong are Goku and Vegeta supposed to be in their base forms at this point? There doesn't seem to be any inclination as to where they stand.

Is base Goku at this point stronger than he was as a SSJ3 at the start of Super? Is base Vegeta stronger than when he was angry SSJ2 Vegeta?

Or how they just somewhat stronger than what their base power was before.

Hard to know but they should be far stronger than SSJ3 and Mutated Vegeta. Next episode seems to include more training from Whis, maybe he will get a statement or clue.

[Birusu16]

Considering Goku was capable of stopping Beerus' final attack when in base I'd say the implication is the same as that of BoGs, which was that they're barely weaker than SSJG, if at all, in base.

[Neon Z]

So how strong are Goku and Vegeta supposed to be in their base forms at this point? There doesn't seem to be any inclination as to where they stand.

Is base Goku at this point stronger than he was as a SSJ3 at the start of Super? Is base Vegeta stronger than when he was angry SSJ2 Vegeta?

Or how they just somewhat stronger than what their base power was before.

Although Base Goku didn't fight against Beerus directly, unlike in Battle of Gods, he was in base when punching and destroying Beerus' big energy ball at the end, and that's right after Beerus had further powered it up, and Goku could barely hold it anymore as a SSJ. So, Goku's base greatly powered up too.

[ekrolo2]

It was months old? Weird, I saw it mixed in with the newer stuff lol. Must've been a glitch or something.
Oob is part of the manga, so unless Toriyama's only worthwhile as a defense cruch for any criticism or excuse, he's happening.
A statement which is based on a Goku who's arrogant enough to think he doesn't need anyone's help even though that's the only reason he beat Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Boo and can't sense Beerus' power for shit. So yeah, Goku is an unreliable source of power information in this case.

1. Yes, it was months old.
2. Doesn't matter if he's part of the manga. Super doesn't need to follow the manga exactly. Uub was a pointless addition anyway and added nothing to the story.
3. There's nothing unreliable about it. He fought Beerus and was beaten with a ridiculous amount of ease and estimated that not even Vegetto would be enough. You can choose to deny if you want, but the facts and implications don't change, both of which suggest Beerus is leagues above Vegetto. Not to mention his feats absolutely dwarf anything Vegetto's done.

Regardless of how you feel, Oob is in the manga that's been in print for a long time now. He's not going away no matter what.
And Goku getting his ass kicked means nothing. This is Dragon Ball where an insignificant gap lets you completely murder someone else and since Goku can't sense Beerus for shit he has absolutely no clue just how strong Beerus actually is. He can prop him up all he wants only to realize later he's not even twice as strong as his SSJ3 self when he ponders his strength on King Kai's planet.

Also, you forget that Goku is completely up his own ass in BoG, ignoring factual events from the past where he won purely because he had help from others whether it was direct or indirect because he thinks he's the best.

Him popping up Beerus' power, which I want to stress again he cannot sense at all, just so his bruised ego can take the beating easier is far more plausible than ZOMG! BEERUS-SAMA IS X1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 LSSGSSJGRADE5RAGETTO!

[Bullza]

In BoG it was shown that Goku in his base form was able to hurt Beerus even but that never happened in Super.

Whis mentioned that they need to build up their strenght without Super Saiyan and that was never said in the movie.

Eventually their base form strenght is strong enough to surpass Frieza in his final form post training but as they are now I have no idea.

How their base power correlates to their Super Saiyan/God/Blue power more than anything is what confuses me.

We had kinda figured that base Goku in RoF was as strong or stronger than SSJG Goku from BoG but that doesn't look to be the case now which would explain at least one thing.

[Birusu16]

It was months old? Weird, I saw it mixed in with the newer stuff lol. Must've been a glitch or something.
Oob is part of the manga, so unless Toriyama's only worthwhile as a defense cruch for any criticism or excuse, he's happening.
A statement which is based on a Goku who's arrogant enough to think he doesn't need anyone's help even though that's the only reason he beat Vegeta, Freeza, Cell and Boo and can't sense Beerus' power for shit. So yeah, Goku is an unreliable source of power information in this case.

1. Yes, it was months old.
2. Doesn't matter if he's part of the manga. Super doesn't need to follow the manga exactly. Uub was a pointless addition anyway and added nothing to the story.
3. There's nothing unreliable about it. He fought Beerus and was beaten with a ridiculous amount of ease and estimated that not even Vegetto would be enough. You can choose to deny if you want, but the facts and implications don't change, both of which suggest Beerus is leagues above Vegetto. Not to mention his feats absolutely dwarf anything Vegetto's done.

Regardless of how you feel, Oob is in the manga that's been in print for a long time now. He's not going away no matter what.
And Goku getting his ass kicked means nothing. This is Dragon Ball where an insignificant gap lets you completely murder someone else and since Goku can't sense Beerus for shit he has absolutely no clue just how strong Beerus actually is. He can prop him up all he wants only to realize later he's not even twice as strong as his SSJ3 self when he ponders his strength on King Kai's planet.

Also, you forget that Goku is completely up his own ass in BoG, ignoring factual events from the past where he won purely because he had help from others whether it was direct or indirect because he thinks he's the best.

Him popping up Beerus' power, which I want to stress again he cannot sense at all, just so his bruised ego can take the beating easier is far more plausible than ZOMG! BEERUS-SAMA IS X1000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 LSSGSSJGRADE5RAGETTO!

1. And as I've said, I don't care if he's in the manga. You're free to believe he's not going away. I don't care if he stays or not. My point is it's entirely possible to get rid of him.
2. I'm not going to take a reasoning from a fan that isn't in anyway implied or stated as more plausible than the actual in universe reasoning by the actual characters. Sorry, but it's not anywhere close to being far more plausible (at least not in my eyes). We've been given more than enough implications and statements that suggest Vegetto isn't anywhere close to Beerus' level (both out of universe and in universe). I'll gladly take Goku's (the guy who actually has a firm grasp on Vegetto's power and has fought Beerus) word over yours. So yea, not going to entertain this debate any longer. You can believe what you'd like.

[saunasolmu]

Vegeta received training from the greatest teacher in the entire universe. I don't see any problem with him catching up to Goku's strength. Yeah, the god power up was supposed to be a whole another level of power, but so was pretty much every single power up in the history of the series... and they all were surpassed pretty easily in the end.

[Bullza]

If Goku as a Super Saiyan has the same power as when he was a Super Saiyan God.....then what's the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue?

In the dub Goku said that he had a taste for something called Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue was just supposed to be him being able to tap into that power on his own now but if he already has that power as a Super Saiyan then what's the purpose of Super Saiyan Blue supposed to be?

[Neon Z]

In BoG it was shown that Goku in his base form was able to hurt Beerus even but that never happened in Super.

But in Super, Base Goku stopped Beerus' big energy ball at the end. He clearly got a big boost too.

If Goku as a Super Saiyan has the same power as when he was a Super Saiyan God.....then what's the difference between Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Blue?

In the dub Goku said that he had a taste for something called Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue was just supposed to be him being able to tap into that power on his own now but if he already has that power as a Super Saiyan then what's the purpose of Super Saiyan Blue supposed to be?

Those lines probably will be different in the RoF arc. Remember, originally, it was just said that Goku kept part of the SSJG's power in BoGs, but Super changed it to SSJ Goku's power being equal to SSJG Goku's. So, SSJB pretty much has to be even stronger than that.

[Bullza]

In BoG it was said that Goku's power had barely dropped whereas in Super they just said it hadn't drop at all, so pretty much the same kinda thing.

It's still not clear at all what Super Saiyan Blue is supposed to be. Going by what was said in the Japanese version it was Goku turning Super Saiyan after absorbing the power of a God but in the English version its just supposed to be him now able to tap into SSJG power on his own.

Vegeta never became a God though yet still became a Super Saiyan Blue which makes the Japanese description seem wrong.

I just don't get it. It just looks like it's a form that can be achieved through training and has nothing to do with SSJG at all.

[LightBing]

I think currently they're both about as strong as SSJG. They survived an attack from Beerus, a surprise attack no less, since they were both transported to his chamber.

The six months Vegeta was training must have been so that he could catch up Goku. Whis did say in the penultimate episode something like "I guess it's about time", before taking Goku with him. Goku must be still at the same level from his fight with Beerus, he was forced to work. Even if he tried to train on the side, he didn't have access to the methods Vegeta had.

[Neon Z]

Vegeta never became a God though yet still became a Super Saiyan Blue which makes the Japanese description seem wrong.

The Japanese description also could be interpreted as a Super Saiyan that equals the power of a Super Saiyan God ('Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God"). Either way though, that wouldn't make sense in Super since Goku was already at that level against Beerus. So, there probably will be a new description.

Vegeta, in spite of never becoming a SSJ God can now sense God Ki, and he's being trained by someone who has God Ki too. So, SSJB can be tied to the whole concept of God training and God Ki, even if it's not connected directly to SSJ God.

[Sora Saiyan]

I guess every Saiyan has the potential to become a SSJG with the right training. Now the ritual just seems to be a shortcut to the form.

[Pannaliciour]

Toriyama is clear about one thing: Ssjb is stronger than ssj god. It is stated in the manga.

[Lord Beerus]

Toriyama is clear about one thing: Ssjb is stronger than ssj god. It is stated in the manga.

Toriyama isn't in charge of the Super manga.

[Chiki]

At this rate it looks like Champa might even be below Raditz level. >_> He makes Vados destroy planets for him...

[pacz360]

At this rate it looks like Champa might even be below Raditz level. >_> He makes Vados destroy planets for him...

How does this make him below raditz?

[dbzfan7]

I guess every Saiyan has the potential to become a SSJG with the right training. Now the ritual just seems to be a shortcut to the form.

It just feels like a shortcut and nothing more now. Kinda takes away from the prestige now that you can just do it yourself in a pretty short amount of time.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So, Vegeta became a Saiyan beyond God through Whis' "ki control" special training. He has all the traits; he is at around SSG level in base, he can sense the ki of gods, and he will soon become a Super Saiyan Blue.

This is awesome, honestly. Not only it explains Vegeta's rage boost against Beerus, which made him stronger than Super Vegetto, but it could also explain the huge increases in power that the Saiyans made in the GT timeline. Since the power of SSG can be drawn out through "ki control" training (as Whis said), I guess Vegeta temporarily used some of its power against Beerus, and the Saiyans in GT came close to understanding this kind of training, which would explain how Ultimate Gohan can become a Super Saiyan (he kept training between Z & GT), SS Goten & Trunks surpassed U. Gohan (they promised Goku they would train at the end of Z), Vegeta surpassed Gohan, Goku surpassed Majin Boo in his base form, and Pan was not extremely far from the other base Saiyans. It would also explain how the Future Warrior & Future Trunks became so strong in XenoVerse, who were considered worthy by Beerus to take on Demigra, who was stronger than SbG Goku.

Not saying that all these became Saiyans beyond God, but it appears that they have gotten at least an idea of the kind of training one should do in order to achieve this level, which explains the insane gains they suddenly made.


However, we don't know if this is possible in Toriyama's continuity (manga/BoG/FnF). There is no indication that Vegeta became a Saiyan beyond God like in Super, and it's hinted that he went through SSG like Goku.