Ocean Studios' "Dragon Ball Kai" Dub Turns 16; Still Unreleased

[90sDBZ]

As has been explored previously, we know from the past that the UK was a happy export-ground for the Westwood dub, to the part where Turner UK were actually the ones ordering/driving the production - but the fact that Cartoon Network passed on Kai altogether over here, and an alternative broadcaster went for the Funimation dub, was probably as unexpected for the producers of this dub as it was for every Dragonball fan in the UK. The added lack of a home on Canadian TV must have just been a total kick in the teeth.

It doesn't come as that much of a surprise to me. I didn't think for a second that Cartoon Network UK would air Kai, as they haven't shown any anime at all in the past decade. I've gotten the impression that Cartoon Network/Toonami UK didn't have the best relationship with Funimation, as they even opted to go with the Big Green dubs rather than license anything from them. Hell they could have shown the Ocean dub of movies 1-3, but didn't because they'd have to license them from Funimation. CSCS Media who own Kix are a different company, so likely don't have any problems with Funimation.

And even back in the day, before the Westwood dub came along, Funimation's dub also had a successful run in the UK for the part of the series it was used for. Even though the Westwood dub was used for the majority of the series, Funimation's dub got plenty of exploitation too, so it was a pretty safe bet for Kix to air either dub.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Well, an important part of this dilemma to remember is that, apparently, Kix was aware of the Ocean dub of Kai, but Toei did not give them the option to use it, saying that it was either FUNimation's dub or no Kai at all.

[Blade]

As has been explored previously, we know from the past that the UK was a happy export-ground for the Westwood dub, to the part where Turner UK were actually the ones ordering/driving the production - but the fact that Cartoon Network passed on Kai altogether over here, and an alternative broadcaster went for the Funimation dub, was probably as unexpected for the producers of this dub as it was for every Dragonball fan in the UK. The added lack of a home on Canadian TV must have just been a total kick in the teeth.

It doesn't come as that much of a surprise to me. I didn't think for a second that Cartoon Network UK would air Kai, as they haven't shown any anime at all in the past decade. I've gotten the impression that Cartoon Network/Toonami UK didn't have the best relationship with Funimation, as they even opted to go with the Big Green dubs rather than license anything from them. Hell they could have shown the Ocean dub of movies 1-3, but didn't because they'd have to license them from Funimation. CSCS Media who own Kix are a different company, so likely don't have any problems with Funimation.

I know a fair bit about the dispute between Funimation and Turner Broadcasting UK from back in the day, and I also know that Dragonball's complex licensing situation in Europe had more than just effect of allowing Turner to go with the AB-produced alternative and be the driving force behind its continued production.

Something has changed since then in that Funimation was able to engineer a deal to distribute their dub to the home release market under Manga UK. I'm of the understanding that back when the Westwood Dub was still airing in the UK, AB's merchandising rights for Dragonball in the UK meant that it was impossible for Funimation to do something like that, which is why the only home releases we saw before then were the AB-produced 'big green' dubs of the movies.

So yeah, when Kix announced that they had Kai and they went with the Funimation dub, I was pretty damned surprised, given that we weren't really a fully-fledged Funimation territory before then. Clearly that has now changed.

[TheBlackPaladin]

So yeah, when Kix announced that they had Kai and they went with the Funimation dub, I was pretty damned surprised, given that we weren't really a fully-fledged Funimation territory before then. Clearly that has now changed.

I guess what I was getting at though was, is it really a FUNimation thing? It sounds like it's more of a Toei problem in this case. Kix was aware of the Ocean dub, but Toei told them that they couldn't use it. I wonder what's up with that?

I know this isn't likely, but I wonder if it has something to do with all the actors who have broken their NDAs about the Ocean dub. I don't want to name the studio, but I've spoken to an employee from another anime dubbing studio (as in not FUNimation) who has said that they have lost Japanese clients before because actors talked when they weren't supposed to. After hearing them say that, I can't help but wonder if actors breaking NDAs had anything to do with this.

[Super Sayian Prime]

Given Toei has directly hired Ocean to dub a test run of World Trigger, I doubt broken actor NDAs caused a rift.

While government agencies can be slow, I'd guess the show was sent to the CRTC for approval in early 2014. That means someone was still trying to get Kai on TV in Canada after Kixx had already broadcasted the Funimation dub. That doesn't sound like a production denied distribution by Toei.

[TheBlackPaladin]

While government agencies can be slow, I'd guess the show was sent to the CRTC for approval in early 2014. That means someone was still trying to get Kai on TV in Canada after Kixx had already broadcasted the Funimation dub. That doesn't sound like a production denied distribution by Toei.

Perhaps not in Canada, but Subzero Ice--whoever he/she is--has proven reliable so far, and it was Subzero Ice who said that Kixx was both aware of the Ocean dub and not given the option to use it.

This dub has so many damn mysteries......

[Blade]

While government agencies can be slow, I'd guess the show was sent to the CRTC for approval in early 2014. That means someone was still trying to get Kai on TV in Canada after Kixx had already broadcasted the Funimation dub. That doesn't sound like a production denied distribution by Toei.

Perhaps not in Canada, but Subzero Ice--whoever he/she is--has proven reliable so far, and it was Subzero Ice who said that Kixx was both aware of the Ocean dub and not given the option to use it.

This dub has so many damn mysteries......

I think that the real issue that I find is 'who the hell has paid for this and is willing to stay silent about it?'

Surely, as a funder, you would be above NCDs.

[jelleline89]

Given Toei has directly hired Ocean to dub a test run of World Trigger, I doubt broken actor NDAs caused a rift.

There stile might have been. Did any Ocean voice actors reveal that they were dubbing World Trigger prior to the announcement? Toei might have gotten strict with Ocean, with warning to the voice actors to never break NDA again or else, take away Ocean Kai, and still be allowed to dub World Trigger.

It's a stretch, but given the circumstances, I wouldn't be surprised if Toei had a hand in keeping Ocean Kai locked away forever because of the broken NDAs.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Given Toei has directly hired Ocean to dub a test run of World Trigger, I doubt broken actor NDAs caused a rift.

There stile might have been. Did any Ocean voice actors reveal that they were dubbing World Trigger prior to the announcement? Toei might have gotten strict with Ocean, with warning to the voice actors to never break NDA again or else, take away Ocean Kai, and still be allowed to dub World Trigger.

It's a stretch, but given the circumstances, I wouldn't be surprised if Toei had a hand in keeping Ocean Kai locked away forever because of the broken NDAs.

As the employee from this other anime dubbing studio told me, NDAs are a huge deal in Japanese corporate culture, and they place a very, very high value on being able to trust someone with sensitive information. Likewise, the breaking of an NDA--the breaking of that trust--is also something they take very seriously.

[NitroEX]

Haven't Funimation's cast members broken NDA and spilled info on Kai before it's announcements? Toei doesn't seem to have punished them for it so I doubt it would be the case with this dub.

Honestly I can't imagine Japanese businessmen even bothering to pay attention to convention panels or inspecting an actor's twitter feed, the whole idea just seems kind of ridiculous to me. Unless Ocean themselves are ratting out their own actors to Toei (which would be pretty stupid of them) I have a hard time imagining how they would even find out in the first place.

Also, I think it's important to remember that Kirby Morrow let the cat out of the bag from the very beginning and this didn't cause production to stop. This was still during Ocean's casting phase for Kai which would have been a perfect time to axe the project yet, in spite of that (and McNeil continuing to talk about it), dubbing still continued until the very end. Toei didn't stop them then so I see no reason why they'd go out of their way to stop them now.

My guess is that the problem lies with the TV networks in Canada. The show has probably been pitched to them already but, for whatever reason, they've refused it. Maybe the network gatekeepers just "don't get" the appeal of DBZ Kai or think it's too violent/sexist for the kids channels over there. If that's not the reason then maybe it's the lack of toys and merchandise, currently the only anime Canadian channels seem to be interested in are things like Beyblade, Future Card Buddyfight and Yo-Kai Watch, all of which are basically advertisements for toys and card games. If Canada had it's own equivalent of Toonami I think this dub would have been aired by now but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be an alternative place to air it which is sad considering how many adult viewers would be tuning in to see this thing if it aired.

someone has funded the thing in its God-damned entirety. Not just a small order from a network pending more depending on how ratings went, or as a limited production as a proof-of-concept to pitch to networks - but every last frickin' episode (at the time, at least).

Someone out there is out of pocket right now in a big way.

The TV industry is still admittedly much of a mystery to me but it appears that (for the US at least) it's pretty much a standard requirement for a show to have at least 88-100 episodes before it can be sold for syndication. I don't know how the rules might vary for something like an anime dub but maybe this is a clue as to why they chose to dub everything first, they might not have had the option to produce a small number of episodes because... that's just not the way things are done in that industry? Who knows.

[TheBlackPaladin]

They may not have cancelled production, but it was emphasized to me that Morrow still got in major, major, major trouble for revealing what he did...and again, I heard it straight from the horse's mouth that a dubbing studio has lost Japanese clients because of actors talking when they weren't supposed to.

Having said all that, I agree with you that uninterested Canadian TV networks are most definitely the biggest problem. All the signs are pointing to that being the biggest roadblock. I was simply saying that I wouldn't be so sure it's the *only* roadblock.

[Blade]

Haven't Funimation's cast members broken NDA and spilled info on Kai before it's announcements? Toei doesn't seem to have punished them for it so I doubt it would be the case with this dub.

Unless the Funimation voice actors signed the non-disclosure agreement themselves, technically they're free to talk about it, as they're not subject any sort of contractual stipulations that prevents it. It means, however, that anything that they do say is either second-hand information acquired through industry gossip or word-of-mouth, or that they've spoken to someone involved in the production at some point who has broken their own NDA.

I'm not sure that the non-disclosure thing is such a huge issue for this production anymore. Take for example the fact that the guy voicing Freeza came out on Twitter to announce his role, claiming that he was allowed to confirm as much officially. If that was something that he wasn't allowed to do, then nobody has seemed to pull him up for it.

[eledoremassis02]

Its a shame sites like Hulu or Netflix isnt interested. I know hulu doesnt have a site in canada tho What about that one site that was straming DBZ in Dragon box?

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'm not sure that the non-disclosure thing is such a huge issue for this production anymore. Take for example the fact that the guy voicing Freeza came out on Twitter to announce his role, claiming that he was allowed to confirm as much officially. If that was something that he wasn't allowed to do, then nobody has seemed to pull him up for it.

As I recall, Lee Tockar re-tweeted a tweet from Toonami announcing the "debut" of Kai, innocently but incorrectly thinking that it was talking about the Ocean dub. When questioned further on Twitter about it, and after someone pointed out that Toonami was talking about the FUNimation dub, he said that he'd ask his agent when he was allowed to talk about it...and then we never heard from him again on the subject.

Reading between the lines, that to me sounds like he jumped the gun and was told to cease talking about it.

[Blade]

I'm not sure that the non-disclosure thing is such a huge issue for this production anymore. Take for example the fact that the guy voicing Freeza came out on Twitter to announce his role, claiming that he was allowed to confirm as much officially. If that was something that he wasn't allowed to do, then nobody has seemed to pull him up for it.

As I recall, Lee Tockar re-tweeted a tweet from Toonami announcing the "debut" of Kai, innocently but incorrectly thinking that it was talking about the Ocean dub. When questioned further on Twitter about it, and after someone pointed out that Toonami was talking about the FUNimation dub, he said that he'd ask his agent when he was allowed to talk about it...and then we never heard from him again on the subject.

Reading between the lines, that to me sounds like he jumped the gun and was told to cease talking about it.

I dunno, he outright announced it. The tweet is still there.

https://twitter.com/leetockar/status/529493816236331008

[B]

Wow, it's exactly a year since that tweet, too.

[Blade]

Wow, it's exactly a year since that tweet, too.

A whole year that, in the words of Edmund Blackadder, we have 'advanced no further than an asthmatic ant with some heavy shopping'.

[TheBlackPaladin]

I'm not sure that the non-disclosure thing is such a huge issue for this production anymore. Take for example the fact that the guy voicing Freeza came out on Twitter to announce his role, claiming that he was allowed to confirm as much officially. If that was something that he wasn't allowed to do, then nobody has seemed to pull him up for it.

As I recall, Lee Tockar re-tweeted a tweet from Toonami announcing the "debut" of Kai, innocently but incorrectly thinking that it was talking about the Ocean dub. When questioned further on Twitter about it, and after someone pointed out that Toonami was talking about the FUNimation dub, he said that he'd ask his agent when he was allowed to talk about it...and then we never heard from him again on the subject.

Reading between the lines, that to me sounds like he jumped the gun and was told to cease talking about it.

I dunno, he outright announced it. The tweet is still there.

https://twitter.com/leetockar/status/529493816236331008

Yes, but again, he did it around the time that Toonami announced the debut of Kai on their network. If you check Tockar's other tweets around that date, you'll see that he also re-tweeted Toonami's announcements. The general consensus is that he mistakenly thought they were talking about the Ocean dub.

[VegettoEX]

In the interest of transparency, and because enough time has passed, I'm pretty sure we had someone contact us and request any mentions of his announcement be removed. Not even on the website-proper, mind you ('cuz I don't think we talked about it there?), but in other folks' conversations here on the forum.

I didn't comply, because I'm not in the business of removing valid conversations made with legitimate announcements from the horse's mouth.

(And that's only ONE EXAMPLE of people contacting us and requesting your conversations be edited based on publicly-available and publicly-stated information. Let no-one say VegettoEX doesn't fight for your right to party.)

[Blade]

(And that's only ONE EXAMPLE of people contacting us and requesting your conversations be edited based on publicly-available and publicly-stated information. Let no-one say VegettoEX doesn't fight for your right to party.)

That doesn't surprise at all me when it comes to cases of copyright infringement - but I'm a little surprised that it happened regarding this.

I used to be active on a prominent fan-site for a big Visual Kei band, and it was a regular thing that net-scrubbers representing the band's management would contact the owners about removing posts that contained 'non-official' information or rumours (which sadly, to keep their status as an 'approved' fan site, they complied with).

But yeah, good on you for upholding your site's integrity.