can Janemba be close to Super Buu?

[Darkprince410]

You know, he backed up his point with evidence. That makes him more credible than you going "nuh-uh." They've got the sparks there. That's a SSJ2 trait.

In the very next scene to show Goku and Vegeta, it's shown though that they don't have lightning in their auras, but rather billows of the yellow aura coming up, suggesting the white "sparks" we see before are actually meant to be the aura billows.

Spoiler:

[Kaboom]

That's the anime version of things anyway, and the anime typically just does whatever the heck it wants with the lightning bolts. They're not a consistent indicator of Super Saiyan 2 like they are in the manga.

[miguelnuva1]

Like I said, "circular Toei logic aside." Plus as far as I remember, even in the anime, he never fought regular Evil Boo. Just Gotenks-Boo while Gohan searched for the dropped Potara, and Gohan-Boo alongside Vegeta before they merged.

Goku (apparently in SS2, judging by the sparks when they power up) and Vegeta fought Evil Boo inside his body. He didn't exactly do better than Gotenks though. While he and Vegeta were able to blow Buu apart with a Toei Team Attack [TM], they were otherwise helpless. When Goku and Vegeta rushed him individually, he easily dodged them and smacked them down. When they attacked together, they landed a couple hits, but he still was able to knock them back. When they attacked at the exact same time, a la movie 6, they knocked him away and blew him apart with a combined blast (he regenerated).

When Vegeta got knocked out, and it was just SS2 Goku vs Buu, Buu easily defeated him while clearly not using any effort at all. He just chases Goku around and laughs while occasionally letting himself get blown up by weak attacks only to regenerate seconds later. He tosses Goku around a few times and lands one solid hit on him, and that's apparently enough for Goku to concede. He was about to kill Goku with a regular blast before Vegeta started yanking on Mr. Buu's pod. Honestly, both SS2 Vegeta and SS2 Goku did much better against Pure Buu in the anime individually than they did against Super Buu together.

They were clear as day SSJ1 from the fight with Super Buu till the time Goku fights Kid Buu.

You know, he backed up his point with evidence. That makes him more credible than you going "nuh-uh." They've got the sparks there. That's a SSJ2 trait.[/quote]

Okay ingore the ssj1 hair Goku has for the next 3 episodes and how he powers up into the correct ssj2 state later.

People try to not look for the ssj1 vs ssj2 signs sometimes.

[Son Edo]

I don't think so. Goku still admits that Super Buu is stronger than him in the anime, and he doesn't defeat Hildegarn by being strong, but by using a super haxxed technique (he could kill Super 17 with it while in base!). Also, the writer of the movies outright stated that the newest villain Goku fights will always be superior to the previous villain, so Hildegarn > Janemba. The only oddity here is Gotenks overwhelming 1st form Hildegarn while Gohan couldn't.

Yeah, I don't think there's any right answer. I did these chains for fun. In my opinion.

Going by manga logic
Boo(Gohan absorbed) > Gohan > Gotenks > Janemba > Goku.

Going by every movie villain is stronger than the previous logic.
Hildegarn > Boo(Gohan absorbed) > Gohan > Gotenks > Janemba > Goku

Going by Janemba is stronger than Hildegarn because he defeated Goku logic.
Boo(Gohan absorbed) > Janemba > Goku > Hildegarn > Gohan > Gotenks

[Kamiccolo9]

You know, he backed up his point with evidence. That makes him more credible than you going "nuh-uh." They've got the sparks there. That's a SSJ2 trait.

In the very next scene to show Goku and Vegeta, it's shown though that they don't have lightning in their auras, but rather billows of the yellow aura coming up, suggesting the white "sparks" we see before are actually meant to be the aura billows.

Spoiler:

That's all well and good, but I was pointing out the dismissive tone and lack of support for his argument, not flaws of the argument itself. I don't particularly care one way or another.

[miguelnuva1]

You know, he backed up his point with evidence. That makes him more credible than you going "nuh-uh." They've got the sparks there. That's a SSJ2 trait.

In the very next scene to show Goku and Vegeta, it's shown though that they don't have lightning in their auras, but rather billows of the yellow aura coming up, suggesting the white "sparks" we see before are actually meant to be the aura billows.

Spoiler:

That's all well and good, but I was pointing out the dismissive tone and lack of support for his argument, not flaws of the argument itself. I don't particularly care one way or another.

My tone was not dismissive, I was stating a fact from one fan to another. Toei Goku and Vegeta suffer from a problem where they will only use ssj1 in fights despite the opponet being far stronger than that.

I also didn't think I needed to provide evidence to Dbz fans about a 20 year old episode.

[Kamiccolo9]

My tone was not dismissive, I was stating a fact from one fan to another. Toei Goku and Vegeta suffer from a problem where they will only use ssj1 in fights despite the opponet being far stronger than that.

I also didn't think I needed to provide evidence to Dbz fans about a 20 year old episode.

Calling someone else's viewpoint wrong, without providing evidence of your own is the very definition of "dismissive."

And yes, if there is a disagreement on the interpretation of the events, then you do need to provide evidence supporting your belief, if you want to have any credibility. That is how discussion and debate works.

And what does that last sentence even mean? If age was even remotely a factor, then everyone would agree on everything concerning this series. Let's try to do better than that.

[miguelnuva1]

My tone was not dismissive, I was stating a fact from one fan to another. Toei Goku and Vegeta suffer from a problem where they will only use ssj1 in fights despite the opponet being far stronger than that.

I also didn't think I needed to provide evidence to Dbz fans about a 20 year old episode.

Calling someone else's viewpoint wrong, without providing evidence of your own is the very definition of "dismissive."

And yes, if there is a disagreement on the interpretation of the events, then you do need to provide evidence supporting your belief, if you want to have any credibility. That is how discussion and debate works.

And what does that last sentence even mean? If age was even remotely a factor, then everyone would agree on everything concerning this series. Let's try to do better than that.

I didn't say he was wrong, I said Goku and Vegeta were at ssj1. I don't need to post evidence because anyone watching the episode can see their in rge regular ssj form and Goku powers up to ssj2 when he fights kid Buu.

I mentioned the age of the episode because I don't see ho were having a Goku and Vegeta ssj form debate when their clearly in ssj1.

There is lightning in once scene, the rest of the time they have ssj1 hair, and no lighting. They both act like Mssjs and Goku powers up to fight Kid Buu later as a ssj2.

Unless Goku powered down from ssj2 to ssj1 off screne then back to ssj2 to fight Buu, they were using ssj1 againts Buuhan and Super Buu.

[Kamiccolo9]

My tone was not dismissive, I was stating a fact from one fan to another. Toei Goku and Vegeta suffer from a problem where they will only use ssj1 in fights despite the opponet being far stronger than that.

I also didn't think I needed to provide evidence to Dbz fans about a 20 year old episode.

Calling someone else's viewpoint wrong, without providing evidence of your own is the very definition of "dismissive."

And yes, if there is a disagreement on the interpretation of the events, then you do need to provide evidence supporting your belief, if you want to have any credibility. That is how discussion and debate works.

And what does that last sentence even mean? If age was even remotely a factor, then everyone would agree on everything concerning this series. Let's try to do better than that.

I didn't say he was wrong, I said Goku and Vegeta were at ssj1. I don't need to post evidence because anyone watching the episode can see their in rge regular ssj form and Goku powers up to ssj2 when he fights kid Buu.

I mentioned the age of the episode because I don't see ho were having a Goku and Vegeta ssj form debate when their clearly in ssj1.

There is lightning in once scene, the rest of the time they have ssj1 hair, and no lighting. They both act like Mssjs and Goku powers up to fight Kid Buu later as a ssj2.

Unless Goku powered down from ssj2 to ssj1 off screne then back to ssj2 to fight Buu, they were using ssj1 againts Buuhan and Super Buu.

And all of this could have been avoided had you started out by saying that instead of "he's clearly a SSJ1." Which is the entire point.

And the "age argument" is still pointless. Age is irrelevant. The entire series is 20+ years old, yet few things are universally agreed on.

[miguelnuva1]

[

My tone was not dismissive, I was stating a fact from one fan to another. Toei Goku and Vegeta suffer from a problem where they will only use ssj1 in fights despite the opponet being far stronger than that.

I also didn't think I needed to provide evidence to Dbz fans about a 20 year old episode.

Calling someone else's viewpoint wrong, without providing evidence of your own is the very definition of "dismissive."

And yes, if there is a disagreement on the interpretation of the events, then you do need to provide evidence supporting your belief, if you want to have any credibility. That is how discussion and debate works.

And what does that last sentence even mean? If age was even remotely a factor, then everyone would agree on everything concerning this series. Let's try to do better than that.

I didn't say he was wrong, I said Goku and Vegeta were at ssj1. I don't need to post evidence because anyone watching the episode can see their in rge regular ssj form and Goku powers up to ssj2 when he fights kid Buu.

I mentioned the age of the episode because I don't see ho were having a Goku and Vegeta ssj form debate when their clearly in ssj1.

There is lightning in once scene, the rest of the time they have ssj1 hair, and no lighting. They both act like Mssjs and Goku powers up to fight Kid Buu later as a ssj2.

Unless Goku powered down from ssj2 to ssj1 off screne then back to ssj2 to fight Buu, they were using ssj1 againts Buuhan and Super Buu.

And all of this could have been avoided had you started out by saying that instead of "he's clearly a SSJ1." Which is the entire point.

And the "age argument" is still pointless. Age is irrelevant. The entire series is 20+ years old, yet few things are universally agreed on.[/quote]

Or it could have been avoided if you didn't take what I was saying out of context. Do you think they were in ssj1 or ssj2 because unless you think thwy were ssj2 I don't really see why you had to attack me the way you did?

The age of the episode is important to.me because the episode in question is not like Dragon Ball super or resurrection f which someone may not have seen yet.

The buu saga came out 20 years in japan and is at least 10 years old dubbed, I believe any Dragonball fan on this board would have seen it by now and would have been able to go back and remember how the events of the episode played out.

Goku is never shown to power down after the Super Buu fight but he does have a power up to ssj2 to fight Kid Buu. He also has his ssj1 hair the entire time.

[Kamiccolo9]

Or it could have been avoided if you didn't take what I was saying out of context. Do you think they were in ssj1 or ssj2 because unless you think thwy were ssj2 I don't really see why you had to attack me the way you did?

The age of the episode is important to.me because the episode in question is not like Dragon Ball super or resurrection f which someone may not have seen yet.

The buu saga came out 20 years in japan and is at least 10 years old dubbed, I believe any Dragonball fan on this board would have seen it by now and would have been able to go back and remember how the events of the episode played out.

Goku is never shown to power down after the Super Buu fight but he does have a power up to ssj2 to fight Kid Buu. He also has his ssj1 hair the entire time.

I took nothing out of context. RandomGuy made a point, you disagreed, and instead of defending your point or rebutting his, you just said he was wrong. Again, I don't care what the argument is about, but you completely failed in making your point, and I informed you of that. There is no discussion to be had when one side refuses to engage. That is the point I made.

[RandomGuy96]

Okay ingore the ssj1 hair Goku has for the next 3 episodes and how he powers up into the correct ssj2 state later.

Goku's clearly a SS1 vs Majin Vegeta. Clearly.

[Kaboom]

Toei's left hand has practically never known what its right is doing when it comes to visually distinguishing Super Saiyan from Super Saiyan 2. Even after Goku blatantly labeled and demonstrated both forms against Fat Boo, they still didn't pick up on the multiple differences (sparks, aura, hair) that Toriyama made so obvious in the manga. So what argument is there to have about it?

[RandomGuy96]

Toei's left hand has practically never known what its right is doing when it comes to visually distinguishing Super Saiyan from Super Saiyan 2. So what argument is there to have about it?

I don't think that there needs to be an argument, I just said why I think it's likely that they were SS2s in that scene. Darkprince makes a good point above, but I just don't agree. Partly because that "billow" effect doesn't show up again (and wasn't present when they were powering up earlier), and partly because Vegeta also had sparks around him briefly in Movie 12 and in the earlier Buuhan fight scene, which seemed like they were trying to tell us something. That, and the aura shape.

Now that I think about it, though, it doesn't make much of a difference if they were SS1s or SS2s. In Toei's world, there seems to be barely any difference between saiyan forms after their initial appearance. For example, Super Saiyan is an appropriately huge boost in the Freeza arc and movies 4-6, but seems to only be a x1.5 boost at most in movie 7 and some of the Cell-era filler. Even the difference between SS2 and SS3, which dwarfs the SS1-SS2 difference by a large margin, is portrayed as moderate (i.e. a SS2-tier can still put up a decent fight against a SS3-tier).

[miguelnuva1]

Okay ingore the ssj1 hair Goku has for the next 3 episodes and how he powers up into the correct ssj2 state later.

Goku's clearly a SS1 vs Majin Vegeta. Clearly.

I knew you were going to bring that up but guess what. They were ssj2 the episode before and they were ssj2 the next episode. Plus they had blue lighting constanly vs the gold lighting in that one scene.