Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Araki]

Toriyama is not personally providing notes or direction to Toyotaro.

He doesn't do that for Toei either, as far as we know.

But how do you know that? irreality was right, Toriyama does have different credits in the anime that denote a bigger involvement. And from the series' announcement everything indicates he's close to the anime staff, since RoF. Heck, even when he was writing the manga, he provided the staff with notes, designs, ideas and directions, and they were a lot less close back then, since Toriyama was busy with his manga. Why wouldn't he now? He seems surprisingly protective of his work now, to the point of changing the whole BoG script and designs, and taking over RoF himself.

On the other hand, there was nothing connecting him to Toyotaro's manga, other than the generic credits he always gets (the same as in GT). In fact, i wouldn't be surprised if Toriyama never even met him, at least regarding this project. Toyotaro most likely receives scripts from the production committee, then his work is drawing the promotional manga made to hype and advertise the anime project Toriyama is involved with (i thought the lack of even a coherent narrative in the manga would be enough to make that clear).

That said, of course the major things happening or revealed in the manga (Champa's scenes in space, the Kaioshins' split, SSJ Blue, etc) will be in the anime too, we can all be sure about that. They would never give Toyotaro that much freedom, so it can be safely used as a source for most important stuff.

[Bullza]

At least going by the dub it just seems like SSJB is Goku just tapping into his SSJG power just on his own.

That can't be the case in Super though, since Goku SSJ facing Beerus was already stated to be as strong as Goku SSJ God. I don't think looking at the movies' statements that closely is good if you're discussing Super.

Yeah but something like that was already said in Battle of Gods and was made apparent really considering Goku as a SSJ put up a better fight against Beerus than when he used SSJG.

Then there's the Japanese line where it says its Super Saiyan with the power of SSJG.

[HybridSaiyan]

Still, SSJ2 and SSJ3 aren't being treated as "Grade" tiers now in order to make SSJ God and SSJB relevant

There's a quote from Toriyama where he says that SSJ2 and SSJ3 are simply powered-up versions of SSJ, when they were completely different transformations originally. SSJ Grade 1 and 2 were the actual powered up versions of SSJ, so I think this is what he was talking about.

That's exactly what i meant. Akira said Grade 1 and 2 were powered up versions and now ssj2 and ssj3 are being treated the same way. They're completely different transformations.

[Noah]

Would be safer to say that SSJ3 Vegetto is 50% Beerus?

Because I think that SSJ Vegetto would own SSJ3 Goku just like Beerus did it. Now imagine SSJ2 or SSJ3 Vegetto? That's my point. Beerus is above Vegetto for sure, but not leagues above, IMO

[LightBing]

Would be safer to say that SSJ3 Vegetto is 50% Beerus?

Because I think that SSJ Vegetto would own SSJ3 Goku just like Beerus did it. Now imagine SSJ2 or SSJ3 Vegetto? That's my point. Beerus is above Vegetto for sure, but not leagues above, IMO

I have him at around 35% of Beerus, SSJ3 Vegetto. I think 50% is too much. There's that line from Goku, while he still wasn't fighting seriously against Beerus, where he said "Never knew there was a level like this". It's not the exact line, it's what I remember.

[Bullza]

Yeah and Goku was only using 80% of his power at that point which would have been equivalent to 48% of Beerus' power.

So SSJ3 Vegito, yeah I'd say 35-40%, something like that. It'd mean Super Vegito was around 4-5% of Beerus which Rageta would be around too.

[Khin]

Based on feats,even 0.00001% of Beerus' power would one shot SSJ3 Vegetto since Buu Saga characters are only Multi Solar System at best whereas Beerus is at Universe level.As ridiculous as it is,the multiplyer of the Super Saiyan God would be billions of times since he was able to push Beerus' to use 70% of his full power.If we dont use the Universal feats,i think SSJ3 Vegetto is somewhere 10% to 30% of Beerus' full power.

[saunasolmu]

Based on feats,even 0.00001% of Beerus' power would one shot SSJ3 Vegetto since Buu Saga characters are only Multi Solar System at best whereas Beerus is at Universe level.As ridiculous as it is,the multiplyer of the Super Saiyan God would be billions of times since he was able to push Beerus' to use 70% of his full power.If we dont use the Universal feats,i think SSJ3 Vegetto is somewhere 10% to 30% of Beerus' full power.

Well that's a funny way of looking things, I think you are thinking it way too far with those busting terms that are never ever mentioned or anyhow relevant to powerscaling in the series.

[DragonHermit]

If we assume angry SSJ2 Vegeta was on par with SSJ4 transformation, and that made Beerus use 10% of his power. Then Beerus roughly = 10x SSJ4.

I think SSJ3 Vegetto would be around Beerus' power.

[Khin]

Based on feats,even 0.00001% of Beerus' power would one shot SSJ3 Vegetto since Buu Saga characters are only Multi Solar System at best whereas Beerus is at Universe level.As ridiculous as it is,the multiplyer of the Super Saiyan God would be billions of times since he was able to push Beerus' to use 70% of his full power.If we dont use the Universal feats,i think SSJ3 Vegetto is somewhere 10% to 30% of Beerus' full power.

Well that's a funny way of looking things, I think you are thinking it way too far with those busting terms that are never ever mentioned or anyhow relevant to powerscaling in the series.

Because.Feats > Powerscaling

[Blackstripe]

We having this talk again?

Look, there's no way to really know where Vegetto stands. All we know is that his power is "not enough", while Gokuu thought SSG had a good chance of beating Beerus.

It's nothing but speculation. There's no way to know whether SSJ Vegetto > Rageto or Rageto > SSJ Vegetto. It could go either way...but evidence would suggest that Vegeta surpassed his fused form by tapping into some well of power he had never been able to access previously. Considering how different Vegeta is now in terms of personality, this might be due to the softening of his heart.

I wouldn't place SSJ3 Vegetto above 35% of Beerus at an absolute maximum. I think he is actually a great deal lower than that. Like, 8%. Super Vegetto = 1%, SSJ2 = 2%, SSJ3 = 8%.

[ekrolo2]

We having this talk again?

Look, there's no way to really know where Vegetto stands. All we know is that his power is "not enough", while Gokuu thought SSG had a good chance of beating Beerus.

It's nothing but speculation. There's no way to know whether SSJ Vegetto > Rageto or Rageto > SSJ Vegetto. It could go either way...but evidence would suggest that Vegeta surpassed his fused form by tapping into some well of power he had never been able to access previously. Considering how different Vegeta is now in terms of personality, this might be due to the softening of his heart.

I wouldn't place SSJ3 Vegetto above 35% of Beerus at an absolute maximum. I think he is actually a great deal lower than that. Like, 8%. Super Vegetto = 1%, SSJ2 = 2%, SSJ3 = 8%.

I'd place SSJ3 Vegetto on par or even above SSG Goku. Attaining God power is basically this: you wanna get as strong as Vegetto? You get God Ki.

The comments about him not being enough is basically the in-universe equivilent to fanboy speculation about post Namek battlepowers from a guy who can't sense Beerus' energy. Plus Vegetto is a fusion so it fits in with the whole "I could never get this strong by myself" statement.

[Noah]

I'd place SSJ3 Vegetto on par or even above SSG Goku. Attaining God power is basically this: you wanna get as strong as Vegetto? You get God Ki.

How about Freeza?

He's not a god. We can say that Freeza surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto (without Golden Form)? For me not at all, I separate by tiers:

1st Form Freeza = Somewhat above a SSJ2 Tier
2st Form Freeza = Fat Boo Tier
3rd Form Freeza = SSJ3 Tier
Final Form Freeza = Boo-han Tier
100% FP Freeza = SSJ3 Vegetto

[ekrolo2]

I'd place SSJ3 Vegetto on par or even above SSG Goku. Attaining God power is basically this: you wanna get as strong as Vegetto? You get God Ki.

How about Freeza?

He's not a god. We can say that Freeza surpassed SSJ3 Vegetto (without Golden Form)? For me not at all, I separate by tiers:

1st Form Freeza = Somewhat above a SSJ2 Tier
2st Form Freeza = Fat Boo Tier
3rd Form Freeza = SSJ3 Tier
Final Form Freeza = Boo-han Tier
100% FP Freeza = SSJ3 Vegetto

I'd put him a smidge above SSJ3 Vegetto who's a 7.5 while Golden Freeza is an 8.

[Birusu16]

We having this talk again?

Look, there's no way to really know where Vegetto stands. All we know is that his power is "not enough", while Gokuu thought SSG had a good chance of beating Beerus.

It's nothing but speculation. There's no way to know whether SSJ Vegetto > Rageto or Rageto > SSJ Vegetto. It could go either way...but evidence would suggest that Vegeta surpassed his fused form by tapping into some well of power he had never been able to access previously. Considering how different Vegeta is now in terms of personality, this might be due to the softening of his heart.

I wouldn't place SSJ3 Vegetto above 35% of Beerus at an absolute maximum. I think he is actually a great deal lower than that. Like, 8%. Super Vegetto = 1%, SSJ2 = 2%, SSJ3 = 8%.

My sentiments exactly.

Though I might put SSJ3 Vegetto a bit higher, but certainly not anywhere near 45 or 50% of Beerus' power.

[Hugo Boss]

I do have Golden Freeza as a good opponent to a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto. Both with stamina drawbacks and about the same powerlevel. Unfortunately, this is a scenario that only could be drawn in games, Dragon Ball Super will probably follow the same fights that Freeza had on the movie.

[LightBing]

These are the two lines that paint the picture:

Context: after Goku regains consciousness following his fight with Beerus
Goku: “This ain’t good. The only way to get stronger would be to merge with Vegeta…and even then, I don’t think I could win.”

Context: After Beerus defeats angry Vegeta
Beerus: "It's been a long time since I've used 10% or so of my full strength. Well, this was more fun than with that Saiyan over at North Kaio's place."

There's two assumptions that can be made.
- Beerus destroyed Goku while using enough power to even defeat Vegetto. That's why Goku said what he said.
- Beerus used only what was needed to defeat Goku, the Saiyan predicted Beerus is much stronger than what he displayed, even stronger than Vegetto.

Why would Beerus use that much power(Vegetto tier) to defeat Goku? I dare to say even Gotenks-Boo could finger flick SSJ3 Goku. Isn't it more likely Goku just understood that Beerus had much more to give. Which by the way, was a flawed assumption, since we know Beerus is much stronger than SSJG, who is stronger than Vegetto.
Plus, Beerus compliments Vegeta by saying it was more fun of a fight than against Goku. Why would he do such a comparison, if Vegeta isn't somewhat close to Goku.
If Vegeta really was stronger than at least SSJ Vegetto, I doubt Beerus would feel the need to compare the two, since Goku would feel like an ant.

Initial SSJG (Before Goku went Serious) - 48% of Beerus
Predicted Beerus (by Goku) - 35%-40% of Beerus
SSJ3 Vegetto - 35% of Beerus
Mutated Vegeta - 7% of Beerus
SSJ3 Goku - 2% of Beerus

[ekrolo2]

These are the two lines that paint the picture:

Context: after Goku regains consciousness following his fight with Beerus
Goku: “This ain’t good. The only way to get stronger would be to merge with Vegeta…and even then, I don’t think I could win.”

Context: After Beerus defeats angry Vegeta
Beerus: "It's been a long time since I've used 10% or so of my full strength. Well, this was more fun than with that Saiyan over at North Kaio's place."

There's two assumptions that can be made.
- Beerus destroyed Goku while using enough power to even defeat Vegetto. That's why Goku said what he said.
- Beerus used only what was needed to defeat Goku, the Saiyan predicted Beerus is much stronger than what he displayed, even stronger than Vegetto.

Why would Beerus use that much power(Vegetto tier) to defeat Goku? I dare to say even Gotenks-Boo could finger flick SSJ3 Goku. Isn't it more likely Goku just understood that Beerus had much more to give. Which by the way, was a flawed assumption, since we know Beerus is much stronger than SSJG, who is stronger than Vegetto.
Plus, Beerus compliments Vegeta by saying it was more fun of a fight than against Goku. Why would he do such a comparison, if Vegeta isn't somewhat close to Goku.
If Vegeta really was stronger than at least SSJ Vegetto, I doubt Beerus would feel the need to compare the two, since Goku would feel like an ant.

Initial SSJG (Before Goku went Serious) - 48% of Beerus
Predicted Beerus (by Goku) - 35%-40% of Beerus
SSJ3 Vegetto - 35% of Beerus
Mutated Vegeta - 7% of Beerus
SSJ3 Goku - 2% of Beerus

You're forgetting the fact Goku can't sense Beerus' power at all which makes his statement about as accurate as me saying Perfect Cell's power level against Gohan was 100% confirmed to be 3.7 billion because.... reasons. The movie has an added layer of Goku potentially making such a grandiose statement so his inflated ego isn't bruised as badly though this isn't a factor for Super admittedly.

Goku is usually a good source to gauge how strong someone is, but the caveat is he can't sense Beerus at all, he's just assuming based on a feat anyone who's Gotenks SSJ2 tier and above could do just as easily to him like Gotenks, Gohan, regular Super Boo, Bootenks and Boohan.

[LightBing]

You're forgetting the fact Goku can't sense Beerus' power at all which makes his statement about as accurate as me saying Perfect Cell's power level against Gohan was 100% confirmed to be 3.7 billion because.... reasons. The movie has an added layer of Goku potentially making such a grandiose statement so his inflated ego isn't bruised as badly though this isn't a factor for Super admittedly.

Goku is usually a good source to gauge how strong someone is, but the caveat is he can't sense Beerus at all, he's just assuming based on a feat anyone who's Gotenks SSJ2 tier and above could do just as easily to him like Gotenks, Gohan, regular Super Boo, Bootenks and Boohan.

That isn't a necessity. Freeza can't feel ki, but determined 50% of his power would be enough to crush Goku. Perfect Cell was hiding a huge amount of power when he first got formed, but Goku still predicted there to be more, confident that his son(with rage) would be enough.
We know characters can determine unseen power, even better when it's in a fight.

Which leaves us with a question. What makes more sense? Goku guessing Beerus power, after being demolished by him. Or Beerus deciding to use much more than necessary power to defeat him. Remember for Goku to state that, maybe Vegetto wouldn't be be able to win means Beerus used almost 50% of his power, which as we know is impossible.

[singsing]

Why would Goku estimating Beerus to be way too strong for him to beat be him trying to make himself feel better? He hates it when someone is way stronger than him. Also, again, Captain FuckinG Ginyu could estimate Goku's power with near perfect accuracy and he couldn't sense ki.