When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Gohan came out on top of their only hand to hand exchange, and overpowered Dabra in their blade vs hand struggle. So he should be stronger. However, neither of their attacks did (visible) damage to the other, and Dabra was stated to be winning the fight, suggesting they weren't far apart. If Gohan is a 100, Dabra's an 88 or so.
88/100 is too much of a gap.
Freeza vs Goku was a 80/100 gap. Besides Gohan was clearly rusty.
Zombie wrote:
Freeza vs Goku was a 80/100 gap. Besides Gohan was clearly rusty.
Vegeta vs. Cui was a 75/100 gap. Vegeta vs. Zarbon/Dodoria were both something like 90/100. And those numbers hold a lot more water canon-wise than the Goku and Freeza ones.
EDIT: Of course, in the movie version at least, Goku vs. Beerus was something like 85/100...
Maybe the answer is just "it's inconsistent, higher is better, but Toriyama sure as hell didn't think out any more detail than that".
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Zombie wrote:
Freeza vs Goku was a 80/100 gap. Besides Gohan was clearly rusty.
Vegeta vs. Cui was a 75/100 gap. Vegeta vs. Zarbon/Dodoria were both something like 90/100. And those numbers hold a lot more water canon-wise than the Goku and Freeza ones.
EDIT: Of course, in the movie version at least, Goku vs. Beerus was something like 85/100...
Maybe the answer is just "it's inconsistent, higher is better, but Toriyama sure as hell didn't think out any more detail than that".
There is consistency, certainly during the time Mr.Toriyama used power levels. He wasn't thinking about specific percentages and doing math. But there's some thought put into it. It's like the way he rationalized BoG: "SSJG is a 6, so Beerus fought him as a 7, while being a 10 at max; Whis of course is stronger than them so he's a 15."
For me one needs to be withing the 10% margin to have a chance. Of course there's many factor that influence that gap. For example Boo, due to his infinite energy and regeneration might be 15% weaker and hold a fighting chance. Dodoria lost badly because he was scared and lacked ki control, that shrank the gap necessary for Vegeta to kill him so easily.
Anything above 20% is a one side stomp, no chance unless one charges an attack like Super Vegeta did with the Final Flash.
That's sort of what I meant...in that you can arguably derive numbers from it but I don't think Toriyama ever thought about percentages, just "who's higher" and staying consistent in that regard.
-
So how powerful do people have androids 14 and 15? I ask because I've noticed some serious Toei-hax for Goku in that movie recently; during all his brief spats with those two, he's able to handle either one of them easily, and it takes both of them to overwhelm him. Yet later on the gap between 14/15 and Super Saiyan Vegeta/Trunks seems much less than the gap between them and base Goku. Probably shouldn't be surprised that a Toei movie, albeit probably only accidentally, presents base Goku as above SSJ Vegeta/Trunks, but it does make it difficult to get a read on 14/15. So, what do you guys think?
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Captain Space wrote:
So how powerful do people have androids 14 and 15? I ask because I've noticed some serious Toei-hax for Goku in that movie recently; during all his brief spats with those two, he's able to handle either one of them easily, and it takes both of them to overwhelm him. Yet later on the gap between 14/15 and Super Saiyan Vegeta/Trunks seems much less than the gap between them and base Goku. Probably shouldn't be surprised that a Toei movie, albeit probably only accidentally, presents base Goku as above SSJ Vegeta/Trunks, but it does make it difficult to get a read on 14/15. So, what do you guys think?
I don't really take the fights in Base as a means of interpreting powers when it comes to movies. Same thing happened in the Movie 8 when Base Goku drew blood on Restricted SSJ Broly, while a kick and ki blast from SSJ Vegeta didn't even faze him.
So to answer your question, I'd say they're in the same ball park, and make them stronger than Android 19 (Post Absorption), as Vegeta had use a lot more effort to beat him than he did to beat 19, but still finished it handily once he turned Super Saiyan and still had enough energy to join the others and fight 13.
Don't you think that this numbers are way too high? Even Trunks that had go back to the past again, how he improved that much after killing Mecha Freeza?
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Was Trunks any significantly stronger after coming back? I just assumed that after the time machine sent him back he used it again to travel to 3 years later and see the end result. Not that he actually spent 3 years in his own timeline before returning.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Captain Space wrote:
So how powerful do people have androids 14 and 15? I ask because I've noticed some serious Toei-hax for Goku in that movie recently; during all his brief spats with those two, he's able to handle either one of them easily, and it takes both of them to overwhelm him. Yet later on the gap between 14/15 and Super Saiyan Vegeta/Trunks seems much less than the gap between them and base Goku. Probably shouldn't be surprised that a Toei movie, albeit probably only accidentally, presents base Goku as above SSJ Vegeta/Trunks, but it does make it difficult to get a read on 14/15. So, what do you guys think?
I don't really take the fights in Base as a means of interpreting powers when it comes to movies. Same thing happened in the Movie 8 when Base Goku drew blood on Restricted SSJ Broly, while a kick and ki blast from SSJ Vegeta didn't even faze him.
So to answer your question, I'd say they're in the same ball park, and make them stronger than Android 19 (Post Absorption), as Vegeta had use a lot more effort to beat him than he did to beat 19, but still finished it handily once he turned Super Saiyan and still had enough energy to join the others and fight 13.
Not quite the same thing. Broly was in his dark-purple-not-even-quite-SSJ form when Goku drew blood from him. When he lolnoped Vegeta, he was in full blue-mode, so much stronger.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
ekrolo2 wrote:Was Trunks any significantly stronger after coming back? I just assumed that after the time machine sent him back he used it again to travel to 3 years later and see the end result. Not that he actually spent 3 years in his own timeline before returning.
Are we too old to enjoy new Dragon Ball movies/series?
Spoiler:
Nickolaidas wrote: Sun Jun 14, 2015 2:10 am
Guys, I'm going to be straight with you. If you feel the show has gotten 'silly' ... it hasn't. You're just 'too old for this shit'. Seriously, 95% of the people in those boards do not fit the target demographic of the show, so don't expect the show to be 'everything you hoped for'. I'm referring to the people here who expect Super to be rich with dark moments, serious storytelling, meaningful characters etc etc. It won't. It's a show for kids. A show for kids being kids. Everyone in those boards has a manchild in him/her, clamoring to get out, and that's fine. But having unrealistic expectations (such as believing the show grew up alongside you) is naïve at best. Honestly, do you take seriously a story where the supposed God of Destruction halts his urges to blow up stuff in order to eat ice cream sundae? That's the show's silliness at full force, take it for what it is. The show hasn't matured one bit, so don't expect it too. Again, I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm saying *that* is DB and always will be.
Bulma said in Trunks Story that the time machine needed 8 months to recharge. So that's the time I think it took. Mirai Trunks should be significantly stronger than Yardrat Goku.I doubt he made big gains training alone for 8 months in the future. Even Goku said Trunks was holding back, during the finger and sword clash.
Him holding back doesn't have to inherently mean he's above Yardrat Goku, at best I'd say they're even and Trunks simply held back since he knew that he'd inadvertently slice Goku's arm off if he their strengths matched.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
