Toriyama's Statement On the SSJ Multiplier.

[miguelnuva1]

It possibly couldn't be, Toriyama's statement can be construed as being genuinely closer to 10x than 50x after all in the sense that maybe it was more along the lines of 11x through 29x at most which works for me.

How would

It always sounded to me like Toriyama was saying 10x what Goku had been up to then which means 10x Kaioken x20 or x10 instead of simply 50x base.

Ι can't see it like that, this would make the multiplier x100 or x200, and the difference between SS Goku & Full Power Freeza wasn't shown to be that huge, not to mention that this would make the multiplier much bigger than x50, and Toriyama said that the x50 sounded too big.

Unless you use the daiz numbers there is nothing wrong with a 100x or 200x multiplayer working which to me sounds right with Toriyama's thinking because his comment on 50x means he thought a 500x or 1000x stronger Goku was too much.

[Hitiro]

Ι can't see it like that, this would make the multiplier x100 or x200, and the difference between SS Goku & Full Power Freeza wasn't shown to be that huge, not to mention that this would make the multiplier much bigger than x50, and Toriyama said that the x50 sounded too big.

You're forgetting that Goku was incredibly weakened at this point. At one point he couldn't even stand. A 100x multiplier would work if he had lost over half of his Ki while Freeza maintained all of his power. But that is being optimistic I think. It is highly likely Goku had much less than 50% unless you believe he regained his energy somehow. Freeza also took a bit of damage but I don't think he lost that much Ki. If we take damage into consideration we can use any type of multiplier. And yes. Toriyama said that 50x sounded too big. But if he was on about "what it had been up till then" as being the Kaioken x10 or x20 then obviously a 500x or 1000x multiplier would be too big. In all likelihood he probably forgot all about Kaioken by this time as it has been 10 years. So what he thinks Goku's actual base power was at this time probably was Goku using the Kaioken actively.

[ekrolo2]

Ι can't see it like that, this would make the multiplier x100 or x200, and the difference between SS Goku & Full Power Freeza wasn't shown to be that huge, not to mention that this would make the multiplier much bigger than x50, and Toriyama said that the x50 sounded too big.

You're forgetting that Goku was incredibly weakened at this point. At one point he couldn't even stand. A 100x multiplier would work if he had lost over half of his Ki while Freeza maintained all of his power. But that is being optimistic I think. It is highly likely Goku had much less than 50% unless you believe he regained his energy somehow. Freeza also took a bit of damage but I don't think he lost that much Ki. If we take damage into consideration we can use any type of multiplier. And yes. Toriyama said that 50x sounded too big. But if he was on about "what it had been up till then" as being the Kaioken x10 or x20 then obviously a 500x or 1000x multiplier would be too big. In all likelihood he probably forgot all about Kaioken by this time as it has been 10 years. So what he thinks Goku's actual base power was at this time probably was Goku using the Kaioken actively.

Some people think that Goku absorbed some of the energy from the Spirit Bomb into himself while creating it which brought his base back up. That could be used to explain how Goku still gets to a 150 million despite his exhaustion and injuries mauling his base strength.

[Hitiro]

Some people think that Goku absorbed some of the energy from the Spirit Bomb into himself while creating it which brought his base back up. That could be used to explain how Goku still gets to a 150 million despite his exhaustion and injuries mauling his base strength.

Ki is a physical and spiritual energy that is effected by the body and state of mind of a character though. With his injuries he shouldn't be able to output his base power out any more because his body is severely injured. Even if he could absorb the energy from the Genki Dama.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Unless you use the daiz numbers there is nothing wrong with a 100x or 200x multiplayer working which to me sounds right with Toriyama's thinking because his comment on 50x means he thought a 500x or 1000x stronger Goku was too much.

I'm only going by the manga right now. Goku's Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha did some damage to 50% Freeza, meaning that the difference in their power was small. Full Power Freeza, who was x2 stronger than 50% Freeza, was strong enough to give SS Goku a fight.

Let's say that KKx20 Goku = 50% Freeza. What you are suggesting is this:

Goku - 1
KKx20 Goku - 20
50% Freeza - 20
Full Power Freeza - 40
SS Goku - 100 or 200

You can't have FP Freeza at 40, and SS Goku at 100 or 200, and have them fight with Goku just having the advantage & not one-shooting him.

[theherodjl]

It possibly couldn't be, Toriyama's statement can be construed as being genuinely closer to 10x than 50x after all in the sense that maybe it was more along the lines of 11x through 29x at most which works for me.

How would this work? Kaio-ken x20 Goku was at most as strong as 50% Freeza. Since 100% Freeza is twice stronger than 50% Freeza, and SS Goku is stronger than 100% Freeza, SS Goku must be more that twice stronger than KKx20 Goku, meaning that the multiplier of SS must be over x40.

Again, not necessarily.
If we presume that Freeza lost, say half of his power from the Genki Dama and Goku lost around a quarter of his strength then it could look something like this.
Goku - 9
Freeza - 10
Goku KKx20 - 180
50% Freeza - 200
Goku - 7.2(worn out)
Freeza - 100(worn out)
100% Freeza - 200
SSJ Goku - 201.6
7.2 x 28 = 201.6
I'm willing to bet Freeza lost more power simply because he took a direct hit from the Genki Dama, when Vegeta was hit by this same attack his power dropped at least below half of where he stood himself. Goku did take some damage from being struck and did strain his body but he didn't reach the same point Freeza did in which they thought he was honestly dead after being hit by the Genki Dama.

[Kaboom]

If Freeza says he's at "100% full power" with no added clarification or stipulation, then I don't think there's any reason to believe he's not at full power, since even when he was fighting and injured he still had massive reserves he wasn't using yet. Likewise, by becoming a Super Saiyan through rage, Goku has unlocked a whole new reserve of power that he didn't even have before. So that leaves both of them at their true, 150 vs 120, full power.

What their injuries probably affected, though, was their performance. If you've had a good night's sleep and are fully rested (at "full power"), but you have bruised ribs from a fight the night before and wake up with a headache, you're not going to be able to fight as effectively because the pain will hold you back.

[theherodjl]

If Freeza says he's at "100% full power" with no added clarification or stipulation, then I don't think there's any reason to believe he's not at full power, since even when he was fighting and injured he still had massive reserves he wasn't using yet. Likewise, by becoming a Super Saiyan through rage, Goku has unlocked a whole new reserve of power that he didn't even have before. So that leaves both of them at their true, 150 vs 120, full power.

What their injuries probably affected, though, was their performance. If you've had a good night's sleep and are fully rested (at "full power"), but you have bruised ribs from a fight the night before and wake up with a headache, you're not going to be able to fight as effectively because the pain will hold you back.

It's possible that when Ki users become injured and/or exhausted as they are, they may not be able to pull out said reserves completely which may explain why Goku gave Cell a senzu even though he had a good 1/3rd of his power he wasn't using. So "full power" could just be "the amount of strength I can pull out and fight with now" rather than "my full power unrestrained from fatigue".

[miguelnuva1]

Unless you use the daiz numbers there is nothing wrong with a 100x or 200x multiplayer working which to me sounds right with Toriyama's thinking because his comment on 50x means he thought a 500x or 1000x stronger Goku was too much.

I'm only going by the manga right now. Goku's Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha did some damage to 50% Freeza, meaning that the difference in their power was small. Full Power Freeza, who was x2 stronger than 50% Freeza, was strong enough to give SS Goku a fight.

Let's say that KKx20 Goku = 50% Freeza. What you are suggesting is this:

Goku - 1
KKx20 Goku - 20
50% Freeza - 20
Full Power Freeza - 40
SS Goku - 100 or 200

You can't have FP Freeza at 40, and SS Goku at 100 or 200, and have them fight with Goku just having the advantage & not one-shooting him.

Frieza blocked a Kamehameha kkx20 with just a burnt hand tou could argue this.

Goku-1

Frieza-1.6

Goku kkx10-10
Goku kkx20-20
Kamehameha -44.42

Frieza 50%- 80
Frieza 100%- 160

Ssj Goku- 200

You have to play with the numbers but the 100x works as well espically if you don't follow the 150-120 gap

Goku-1

Frieza-1.1

Goku kkx10-10
Goku kkx20-20
Kamehameha -44.42

Frieza 50%- 45
Frieza 100%- 90

Ssj Goku- 100

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Freeza blocked a Kamehameha kkx20 with just a burnt hand tou could argue this.

Goku-1

Frieza-1.6

Goku kkx10-10
Goku kkx20-20
Kamehameha -44.42

Freeza 50%- 80
Freeza 100%- 160

Ssj Goku- 200

You have to play with the numbers but the 100x works as well espically if you don't follow the 150-120 gap

Goku-1

Frieza-1.1

Goku kkx10-10
Goku kkx20-20
Kamehameha -44.42

Freeza 50%- 45
Freeza 100%- 90

Ssj Goku- 100

I don't think it works like that. Piccolo survived a Super Kamehameha from Goku back in the 23rd TB, and they were equals. If it goes as you say, Freeza shouldn't have any damage from the KKx20 Kamehameha.

[theherodjl]

Unless you use the daiz numbers there is nothing wrong with a 100x or 200x multiplayer working which to me sounds right with Toriyama's thinking because his comment on 50x means he thought a 500x or 1000x stronger Goku was too much.

I'm only going by the manga right now. Goku's Kaio-ken x20 Kamehameha did some damage to 50% Freeza, meaning that the difference in their power was small. Full Power Freeza, who was x2 stronger than 50% Freeza, was strong enough to give SS Goku a fight.

Let's say that KKx20 Goku = 50% Freeza. What you are suggesting is this:

Goku - 1
KKx20 Goku - 20
50% Freeza - 20
Full Power Freeza - 40
SS Goku - 100 or 200

You can't have FP Freeza at 40, and SS Goku at 100 or 200, and have them fight with Goku just having the advantage & not one-shooting him.

Freeza blocked a Kamehameha kkx20 with just a burnt hand tou could argue this.

Goku-1

Frieza-1.6

Goku kkx10-10
Goku kkx20-20
Kamehameha -44.42

Freeza 50%- 80
Freeza 100%- 160

Ssj Goku- 200

You have to play with the numbers but the 100x works as well espically if you don't follow the 150-120 gap

Goku-1

Frieza-1.1

Goku kkx10-10
Goku kkx20-20
Kamehameha -44.42

Freeza 50%- 45
Freeza 100%- 90

Ssj Goku- 100

The SSJ multiplier simply cannot be 100x or 200x for the reason that Goku's base needs to be proportionately smaller to fit, if that were the case then his power level from a 100x base would be 1,500,000 and from a 200x base 750,000. This means Goku post-Zenkai is weaker than Freeza's 2nd form.

[miguelnuva1]

100x and 200x times only work if you use daiz numbers. Toriyama I doubt said Goku was 3 million at the time just he was stronger than Vegeta an on par with Frieza.

I can make Goku 7.5 million and ssj goku 1.5 billion based on how Toriyama writes the manga if I wanted the 100x and 200x to work and if he was thinking what I believe he meant.

[theherodjl]

100x and 200x times only work if you use daiz numbers. Toriyama I doubt said Goku was 3 million at the time just he was stronger than Vegeta an on par with Freeza.

I can make Goku 7.5 million and ssj goku 1.5 billion based on how Toriyama writes the manga if I wanted the 100x and 200x to work and if he was thinking what I believe he meant.

Toriyama kinda states that he thought 50x was a little much so I doubt he intended for fans to imply that he was saying 10x on top of the Kaioken x10 or 20.
I personally believe Toriyama favors a less-than-50x multiplier because he states so and I don't find a problem with it, honestly the lesser the multiplier the more sensible because if the multiplier is higher than 50x then you open a new can of worms regarding villains and their strength. The more power SSJ has means the more power that stronger characters have to have as well, if we go by a a 200x multiplier then SSJ2 is 400x the base and then SSJ3 is 1600x the base.
Super Perfect Cell would be around 400x stronger than Base Gohan and Kid Buu would be close to 1600x Base Goku, and if we count GT then Baby Oozaru, Super 17, and the Shadow Dragons ranged from being slightly inferior-to-even-to-superior a 16000x Base GT Goku.
In instances like that you have no room for any other characters to stand any kind of chance if the multiplier is significantly higher.

[miguelnuva1]

It sounds to me like he is saying 50x kaioken is too much which means 500x or 1000x.

[Hitiro]

Toriyama kinda states that he thought 50x was a little much so I doubt he intended for fans to imply that he was saying 10x on top of the Kaioken x10 or 20.
I personally believe Toriyama favors a less-than-50x multiplier because he states so and I don't find a problem with it, honestly the lesser the multiplier the more sensible because if the multiplier is higher than 50x then you open a new can of worms regarding villains and their strength. The more power SSJ has means the more power that stronger characters have to have as well, if we go by a a 200x multiplier then SSJ2 is 400x the base and then SSJ3 is 1600x the base.
Super Perfect Cell would be around 400x stronger than Base Gohan and Kid Buu would be close to 1600x Base Goku, and if we count GT then Baby Oozaru, Super 17, and the Shadow Dragons ranged from being slightly inferior-to-even-to-superior a 16000x Base GT Goku.
In instances like that you have no room for any other characters to stand any kind of chance if the multiplier is significantly higher.

How can you not find a problem with it? Goku couldn't match Freeza with Kaioken x10 and all he managed with x20 was to hurt Freeza a little bit. Now it is fine if you assume the Genki-Dama did a decent amount of damage to Freeza and what is why SSJ Goku, with less than a 10x multiplier, could beat him. But then you have to explain Trunks fighting against Mecha Freeza(Who is stronger than the original Freeza). Trunks would have to be be 10x+ stronger than Goku in his base form to be strong enough to beat Mecha Freeza. Goku then shows up and effortlessly manages to keep up with Trunks who is supposed to be 10x stronger than him. Where did Goku find the time to get 10x stronger? Because he pretty much said he spent all his time learning the Yardratian teleporting technique. And Super Perfect Cell wouldn't have to be 400x stronger. He would only need to be something like 250x stronger than Gohan. Don't forget that Gohan was demolishing him before he got his Zenkai and the only reason he managed to hurt Gohan is because he caught him off-guard while trying to save Vegeta from being killed. Gohan then lost half of his Ki so in effect he would only be 200x by your example. So Cell couldn't have been at 400x otherwise it would have been completely one-sided in the Kamehameha struggle. Cell also wouldn't have been defeated if he were that strong.

[theherodjl]

How can you not find a problem with it? Goku couldn't match Freeza with Kaioken x10 and all he managed with x20 was to hurt Freeza a little bit. Now it is fine if you assume the Genki-Dama did a decent amount of damage to Freeza and what is why SSJ Goku, with less than a 10x multiplier, could beat him. But then you have to explain Trunks fighting against Mecha Freeza(Who is stronger than the original Freeza). Trunks would have to be be 10x+ stronger than Goku in his base form to be strong enough to beat Mecha Freeza. Goku then shows up and effortlessly manages to keep up with Trunks who is supposed to be 10x stronger than him. Where did Goku find the time to get 10x stronger? Because he pretty much said he spent all his time learning the Yardratian teleporting technique. And Super Perfect Cell wouldn't have to be 400x stronger. He would only need to be something like 250x stronger than Gohan. Don't forget that Gohan was demolishing him before he got his Zenkai and the only reason he managed to hurt Gohan is because he caught him off-guard while trying to save Vegeta from being killed. Gohan then lost half of his Ki so in effect he would only be 200x by your example. So Cell couldn't have been at 400x otherwise it would have been completely one-sided in the Kamehameha struggle. Cell also wouldn't have been defeated if he were that strong.

I think you're misreading me here, I said closer to a 10x multiplier, not necessarily just a 10x multiplier or below it for that matter. In an above post I calculated that a x28 multiplier can work just fine under the right circumstances.
Trunks' fight is easily explained in that Freeza never powered up to a significant level as Gohan stated he was suppressed quite a bit still, his only show of force was simply launching a large Ki blast at SSJ Trunks in this suppressed level of power. Trunks then took the initiative to kill Freeza before he could power up. You could argue that Freeza 'silently' powered up his 4th form like he does in the manga and was less suppressed when he attacked Trunks but he likely wasn't anywhere near his full power just due to his arrogance.
Also I wasn't stating that I believed Cell was 400x Base Gohan, I was saying that MiguelNuva's idea that SSJ being a 200x increase would end up making SSJ2 a x400 increase so that's why Cell would have to be calculated that much higher.

[Hitiro]

I think you're misreading me here, I said closer to a 10x multiplier, not necessarily just a 10x multiplier or below it for that matter. In an above post I calculated that a x28 multiplier can work just fine under the right circumstances.
Trunks' fight is easily explained in that Freeza never powered up to a significant level as Gohan stated he was suppressed quite a bit still, his only show of force was simply launching a large Ki blast at SSJ Trunks in this suppressed level of power. Trunks then took the initiative to kill Freeza before he could power up. You could argue that Freeza 'silently' powered up his 4th form like he does in the manga and was less suppressed when he attacked Trunks but he likely wasn't anywhere near his full power just due to his arrogance.
Also I wasn't stating that I believed Cell was 400x Base Gohan, I was saying that MiguelNuva's idea that SSJ being a 200x increase would end up making SSJ2 a x400 increase so that's why Cell would have to be calculated that much higher.

How was Goku ever supposed to win if that were the case when Freeza arrived at Earth? And Gohan said he was suppressed on his way to Earth there is nothing to say that he kept being suppressed when attacking Trunks. But even if you think he was, for some reason, Freeza is nearly twice as strong as him. As soon as he zipped up into the air to dodge Trunks attack he should have been able to avoid his slashes just by outputting his full power. Or even just defend against them. And I never said you were stating Cell would have to be 400x Base Gohan. What I was saying was there is a lot of flexibility between 200x to 400x to still make it work if we were going to use numbers like that. For instance Super Perfect Cell going up from 200x Base Gohan to 250x Base Gohan with the Zenkai. He certainly doesn't need to be pushing 400x because Gohan was able to fend him off with only half of his Ki. Even if Cell was holding back the difference couldn't have been that large otherwise even if Gohan caught him off-guard, like Trunks did against Freeza, a 2x gap between them would have been too much to overcome.

[BrolyLSSJ]

He honestly doesnt even remember his own series.....not even the most smallest parts.

[theherodjl]

Goku could have used a Kaio-ken on top of SSJ if Freeza was at full power, but the fact is no one stated that Freeza was at full power or even half power. He used one Ki blast in a suppressed state then thought he had defeated Trunks and then proceeded to get caught off guard and killed because Trunks did the smart thing and killed him before he powered up. Freeza took time reaching his full power in his original body so I imagine trying to reach 100% within seconds in an unfamiliar machine body would be as challenging, with how ROF depicts him Freeza very impulsively wants revenge so badly that he will overlook any faults he might attain and his machine body was possibly more of a hinderance than an advantage in the regard of powering up his Ki efficiently.
Cell was not held off by half of Gohan's Ki, he was held off by Gohan taking it seriously. Note that Base Vegeta was able to break Cell's concentration so it's not out of the question that SSJ2 Gohan could kill Cell with them being very close.

[Kaboom]

He honestly doesnt even remember his own series.....not even the most smallest parts.

Would you easily remember the entirety of a story you completed almost 20 years ago? Particularly details about secondary aspects (like power level numbers) that you never needed to give a lot of thought?