Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Darkron2151]

Because they are demonstrably on par with Gohan in equal forms. Do you believe Piccolo is on par with SS Gohan?

Why not? Piccolo is stated to have continued to train while Gohan don't.

That and also Piccolo stated that the boys were the Earth's last hope when Vegeta bit the dust, and this was before he found out about fusion.

That can also have a second interpretation:

Piccolo says that the boys were the Earth's last hope, because they're Saiyans, he knows their potential and also knows what 1 day in RoSaT would make with them. Not necesarily saying that they're stronger than him at the time, but they can be.

It would take Piccolo a lot more than 7 years to even be remotely close to SSJ Gohan, and that's if he even trains as hard as he used to, or if his training is even affective anymore. You're also assuming he can land a face punch to an on-guard Buu-arc SSJ Vegeta, which is doubtful.

That's really reaching. He says himself that no amount of SSJ2s ganging up on Buu could beat him. Why would he think that training 2 kids in the ROSAT who haven't even surpassed SSJ could yield any different results? That's even more of a gamble than them learning fusion.

[ZombieVito]

So if Goku is a 10 at BoDB, then how strong do you have him after his training with Roshi? 40? 30? Lower?

[LightBing]

So if Goku is a 10 at BoDB, then how strong do you have him after his training with Roshi? 40? 30? Lower?

I have him at 25, currently redoing my numbers to fit Piccolo Daimao statement. Had him at 30 in my previous list.

[DanielSSJ]

So if Goku is a 10 at BoDB, then how strong do you have him after his training with Roshi? 40? 30? Lower?

I have him at 25, currently redoing my numbers to fit Piccolo Daimao statement. Had him at 30 in my previous list.

Can someone tell me where Piccolo says he was at half power whne he first fought Goku? 'Cause I just reread that arc, and he makes no statements about his power other than the vague "my power is far greater than it was before" statements like that.

[LightBing]

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

Maybe you're reading a translation that modified the line?

[DanielSSJ]

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

Maybe you're reading a translation that modified the line?

I'm still not finding the line. Is this before or after Goku bites him?
Edit: While I still can't find this line in the manga, the anime does have Piccolo say that he's been using only half of his power, right before Goku uses the Kamehameha. Are you sure it isn't an anime only line? If not, the the translations I've been using are wrong.

[LightBing]

After Goku bites him, before the uses the Kamehameha.

[Noah]

It would take Piccolo a lot more than 7 years to even be remotely close to SSJ Gohan, and that's if he even trains as hard as he used to, or if his training is even affective anymore. You're also assuming he can land a face punch to an on-guard Buu-arc SSJ Vegeta, which is doubtful.

That's really reaching. He says himself that no amount of SSJ2s ganging up on Buu could beat him. Why would he think that training 2 kids in the ROSAT who haven't even surpassed SSJ could yield any different results? That's even more of a gamble than them learning fusion.

No, I never mentioned Vegeta, I using untrained SSJ Gohan as a example that is a different thing.

I don't remember Piccolo saying that in bold. Well he had the experience while training Gohan, that hybrids could have more potential than full blooded Saiyans, so he bets on them, risky or not it was the only hope at the moment.

[RandomGuy96]

So if Goku is a 10 at BoDB, then how strong do you have him after his training with Roshi? 40? 30? Lower?

24 or so.

[Darkron2151]

No, I never mentioned Vegeta, I using untrained SSJ Gohan as a example that is a different thing.

I don't remember Piccolo saying that in bold. Well he had the experience while training Gohan, that hybrids could have more potential than full blooded Saiyans, so he bets on them, risky or not it was the only hope at the moment.

Not exactly. We're discussing the Kids' strength, so SSJ Kid Trunks actually landing a hit on SSJ Vegeta (who actually DID train all 7 years and was explicitly trying not to get hit) in his face and then afterward shrugging off a punch out of reflex speaks greatly about his power. And Goten's comparable feats when sparring with Gohan are coupled with this.

Piccolo's only had Gohan as that example, so for him to make the assumption that all hybrids have more potential than regular Saiyans would be unfounded, if Goten and Trunks weren't already comparably strong for him to make that kind of assumption. And you're also assuming Piccolo would even think that Fat Buu would even give him and the boys a full day in the ROSAT. To be honest, I don't think you're entirely wrong about the ROSAT being a key factor in Piccolo's "plan" to try and beat Buu (before the revelation of fusion). But he would probably base that assumption on the boys' current strength rather than completely banking on this "potential" that he doesn't even know exists for them. If they were weaker than him, he would have no grounds to believe so, or that they would even have a chance against Buu.

[ahill1]

Namek arc

Freeza ( 100% ) 140,000,000

Son Goku 3,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 150,000,000


Trunks arc

Yamcha 180,000

Tenshinhan 240,000

Kuririn 320,000

Son Gohan 900,000

Piccolo 3,350,000

Vegeta 3,600,000

King Cold 75,000,000

Mecha Freeza ( Suppressed ) 80,000,000
~ Full Power 160,000,000

Future Trunks 4,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 200,000,000

Son Goku 4,500,000
~ Super Saiyajin 225,000,000


Future Arc

Son Gohan ( 2 Arms ) 3,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 150,000,000

Son Gohan ( 1 Arm ) 3,750,000
~ Super Saiyajin 187,500,000

Future #18 420,000,000

Future #17 ( 40% ) 170,000,000
~ 100% 420,000,000


Androids arc

Yamcha 3,350,000

Tenshinhan 4,000,000

Kuririn 5,000,000

Son Gohan 6,000,000

Android #19 210,000,000
~ Post Absorptions 262,500,000

Android #20 225,000,000
~ Post Absorptions 280,000,000

Piccolo 315,000,000

Future Trunks 7,400,000
~ Super Saiyajin 370,000,000

Son Goku 8,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 400,000,000

Vegeta 8,400,000
~ Super Saiyajin 420,000,000

Android #18 588,000,000

Android #17 630,000,000


Cell arc

Imperfect Cell ( Ginger Town ) 483,000,000

Piccolo ( After fused W/ Kami Weighted ) 567,000,000
~ W/ o Weights 630,000,000

Android #17 630,000,000

Imperfect Cell ( Post Absorptions ) 1,500,000,000

Android #16 1,500,000,000

Semi Cell 3,000,000,000
~ Full Power 4,200,000,000

Vegeta ( Post Rosat ) 60,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 3,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin Grade ( 2 ) 6,000,000,000

Future Trunks ( Post Rosat ) 56,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 2,800,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin Grade ( 2 ) 5,600,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin Grade ( 3 ) 11,200,000,000

Perfect Cell ( Warm Up ) 9,300,000,000


Son Goku ( Post Rosat ) 600,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( 50% ) 15,000,000,000


Cell Games

Android #16 1,500,000,000

Piccolo ( Post Rosat ) 16,000,000,000

Future Trunks ( Post 2 Years in Rosat ) 354,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 17,700,000,000

Vegeta ( Post 2 Years in Rosat ) 360,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 18,000,000,000

Cell Juniors 18,400,000,000

Son Goku Super Saiyajin ( Warm Up ) 9,300,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( Full Power ) 30,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( Vs Cell Junior ) 12,000,000,000

Perfect Cell ( Warm Up ) 9,300,000,000
~ Powered Up ( Vs Goku ) 33,000,000,000
~ Real Speed ( Vs Gohan ) 40,000,000,000
~ Full Power 73,000,000,000
~ Buff 95,000,000,000

Super Perfect Cell 118,000,000,000

Son Gohan ( Post Rosat ) 800,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 40,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 2 ( Enranged ) 125,000,000,000


Boo saga

25th Budokai

Yamcha 3,300,000

Kuririn 5,000,000

Android #18 588,000,000

Piccolo 18,000,000,000

East Kaioshin 27,000,000,000

Son Goten 600,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 30,000,000,000

Present Trunks 625,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 31,250,000,000

Son Gohan 660,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 33,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( 2 ) 82,500,000,000


Babidi arc

Pui Pui 480,000,000

Yakon 1,100,000,000

Dabra 82,500,000,000

Son Gohan Super Saiyajin ( 2 ) 82,500,000,000

Vegeta 880,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 44,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( 2 ) 110,000,000,000


Fat Boo arc

Majin Vegeta 1,100,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 55,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( 2 ) 137,500,000,000

Son Goku 1,100,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 55,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( 2 ) 137,500,000,000

Son Gohan ( Hypothetical Enranged ) 150,000,000,000

Fat Boo ( Initial ) 110,000,000,000
~ Powered Up 150,000,000,000
~ Full Power 440,000,000,000

Son Goku Super Saiyajin ( 3 ) 550,000,000,000

Gotenks Super Saiyajin ( Pre Rosat ) 660,000,000,000


Fusion arc

Fat Boo 440,000,000,000

Evil Boo 264,000,000,000

Good Boo 176,000,000,000

Super Boo ( Initial ) 1,000,000,000,000

Gotenks ( Post Rosat ) 1,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 50,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( 2 ) 125,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin ( 3 ) 500,000,000,000,000

Super Boo ( Full Power ) 500,000,000,000,000

Mystic Gohan 750,000,000,000,000

Bootenks 1,000,000,000,000,000

Boohan 1,250,000,000,000,000

Vegetto 60,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyajin 3,000,000,000,000,000

Buff Boo 625,000,000,000,000

Chibi Boo 537,000,000,000

South Kaioshin 70,000,000,000


How it looks ?

[LightBing]

Do you guys mind sharing your numbers of the first movie, with the tactical genius Garlic Jr.

[Lord Beerus]

Do you guys mind sharing your numbers of the first movie, with the tactical genius Garlic Jr.

I honestly can't make any sense of the battle powers in the first DBZ movie. If we were to go by the movie pamphlet then Garlic Jr. would have a BP of 1450 and Nicky, Sansho and Ginger would have a BP of 350. Which would all be fine and dandy, but then, Daizenshuu 7 creates all manners of confusion by stating that Gingification, the transformation that all four them go through in the movie, "raise the user's dormant power many tens of times". This would put Nicky, Sansho and Ginger's BP in the low thousands if that's the case, because there's no way their BP would be in the low hundreds after the transform, because it would be illogic for their BP to be in the single digit or double area prior to transforming later in the movie because Ginger effortlessly blows aways and knocks out Chi Chi with a single kiai and she has a BP in the triple digit region. Then to just make things even more confusing, according to Daizenshuu 6, this movie takes place before the appearance of Raditz.

What the fuck?!

[ekrolo2]

Do you guys mind sharing your numbers of the first movie, with the tactical genius Garlic Jr.

I honestly can't make any sense of the battle powers in the first DBZ movie. If we were to go by the movie pamphlet then Garlic Jr. would have a BP of 1450 and Nicky, Sansho and Ginger would have a BP of 350. Which would all be fine and dandy, but then, Daizenshuu 7 creates all manners of confusion by stating that Gingification, the transformation that all four them go through in the movie, "raise the user's dormant power many tens of times". This would put Nicky, Sansho and Ginger's BP in the low thousands if that's the case, because there's no way their BP would be in the low hundreds after the transform, because it would be illogic for their BP to be in the single digit or double area prior to transforming later in the movie because Ginger effortlessly blows aways and knocks out Chi Chi with a single kiai and she has a BP in the triple digit region. Then to just make things even more confusing, according to Daizenshuu 6, this movie takes place before the appearance of Raditz.

What the fuck?!

I think this is one of those times where its safe to ignore the databooks lol.

[LightBing]

Do you guys mind sharing your numbers of the first movie, with the tactical genius Garlic Jr.

I honestly can't make any sense of the battle powers in the first DBZ movie. If we were to go by the movie pamphlet then Garlic Jr. would have a BP of 1450 and Nicky, Sansho and Ginger would have a BP of 350. Which would all be fine and dandy, but then, Daizenshuu 7 creates all manners of confusion by stating that Gingification, the transformation that all four them go through in the movie, "raise the user's dormant power many tens of times". This would put Nicky, Sansho and Ginger's BP in the low thousands if that's the case, because there's no way their BP would be in the low hundreds after the transform, because it would be illogic for their BP to be in the single digit or double area prior to transforming later in the movie because Ginger effortlessly blows aways and knocks out Chi Chi with a single kiai and she has a BP in the triple digit region. Then to just make things even more confusing, according to Daizenshuu 6, this movie takes place before the appearance of Raditz.

What the fuck?!

That's why I don't follow guide books, they step on their own toes. Probably because they were thought off by different people. More reliably to use power-scaling, character statements and personal rationale. That way one can at least challenge one's logic, instead of jumping hops to make things work, without any flexibility. Making this whole power-level ordeal fun and not a set in stone answer to stop the chaos.

[RandomGuy96]

Do you guys mind sharing your numbers of the first movie, with the tactical genius Garlic Jr.

I honestly can't make any sense of the battle powers in the first DBZ movie. If we were to go by the movie pamphlet then Garlic Jr. would have a BP of 1450 and Nicky, Sansho and Ginger would have a BP of 350. Which would all be fine and dandy, but then, Daizenshuu 7 creates all manners of confusion by stating that Gingification, the transformation that all four them go through in the movie, "raise the user's dormant power many tens of times". This would put Nicky, Sansho and Ginger's BP in the low thousands if that's the case, because there's no way their BP would be in the low hundreds after the transform, because it would be illogic for their BP to be in the single digit or double area prior to transforming later in the movie because Ginger effortlessly blows aways and knocks out Chi Chi with a single kiai and she has a BP in the triple digit region. Then to just make things even more confusing, according to Daizenshuu 6, this movie takes place before the appearance of Raditz.

What the fuck?!

Three things.

1. Doesn't that pamphlet say the level of 1,450 was for "Garlic Jr and his gang"? That'd imply that Garlic Jr himself is only at 400 in his base form, with the extra 1,050 coming from the combined power levels of his bulky henchmen.
2. Vinegar and Cashew are listed users of "Gigantification", but not Sansho, Ginger, and Nicky. So apparently they were using something else in that movie.
3. Dormant power =/= current usable power.

Anyway, I actually do use those movie pamphlet power levels for every character in the first three movies except Tullece.

Sansho: 280
--Bulky: 350

Ginger: 280
--Bulky: 350

Nicky: 280
--Bulky: 350
(I assume those levels were for their full powers as they hardly do anything before they bulk up. In their weaker, skinnier forms, I'll assume a 25% difference. This matches their fights well enough. Three on one, they can overwhelm Piccolo/Goku; two on one, they can give Goku/Piccolo trouble but eventually lose; one on one, the moderate difference in power and huge disparity in skill becomes apparent, and Goku/Piccolo can easily defeat any of them. Also, even in their base states, they all seem to be much stronger than Krillin),

Garlic Jr: 400
--Bulky: 500
(Base Garlic Jr. is at 400, a hair weaker than Goku or Piccolo, based on my above assumption regarding the pamphlet's wording. Bulky Garlic Jr is 25% stronger than his base form; strong enough to take down Goku or Piccolo individually but weak enough that a team-up overwhelms him)

Goku: 416
Piccolo: 408
Krillin: 206
Gohan: 1
--Angry: 710
(Straight from the Raditz fight)

[ZombieVito]

Very good numbers Random but just a very small nitpick: Wasn't Gohan stated by Raditz to be at 1?

[RandomGuy96]

Very good numbers Random but just a very small nitpick: Wasn't Gohan stated by Raditz to be at 1?

Was he? I thought he was stated to be 2. Oh well.

[ZombieVito]

Very good numbers Random but just a very small nitpick: Wasn't Gohan stated by Raditz to be at 1?

Was he? I thought he was stated to be 2. Oh well.

Here's the quote:

Chapter: 203 (DBZ , P4.1, P8.3, P9.4
Context: Gohan gets extremely mad as Raditz torments Goku, powering up, but this power goes away quickly
Raditz: “Ba…ba…battle power 1,307?! [ ] N... now his battle power is only 1. It... it completely changes with his em... emotions…[ ] Only a child?! You’re joking! The brat has a higher battle power than you! I’ll kill him now, while he still doesn’t know how to use it properly…!”

Still it's such a small think that I'm a bit embarrassed to bring it out.

[Darkron2151]

Here's the quote:

Chapter: 203 (DBZ , P4.1, P8.3, P9.4
Context: Gohan gets extremely mad as Raditz torments Goku, powering up, but this power goes away quickly
Raditz: “Ba…ba…battle power 1,307?! [ ] N... now his battle power is only 1. It... it completely changes with his em... emotions…[ ] Only a child?! You’re joking! The brat has a higher battle power than you! I’ll kill him now, while he still doesn’t know how to use it properly…!”

Still it's such a small think that I'm a bit embarrassed to bring it out.

Just something I thought about (and I could be totally wrong here), but wouldn't the battle power of 1 only apply where he just expended all his latent rage power in an all-out body blow to Raditz and is now seemingly gassed out and lying on the floor as opposed to a healthy, walking, normal Gohan?