Biggest exageration by fans?

[Kamiccolo9]

But a poorly done, insulting train wreck, that was presented the first experience to a huge number of people in an influential area of the world? That is most definitely fair to claim. I'd say it's comparable to the Godzilla dubs. The really bad ones that are so depressingly awful that you can't help but enjoy them. As I see it, defending the Funimation dub is like defending the changes made to The Return of Godzilla, in which they turned a genuine Soviet hero into a martyred terrorist.

Outside of the handling of Freeza and some blatant fact errors (like Bulma saying she knew Goku since he was 5, etc), what exactly do you think makes it such an insulting train wreck? The music makes no difference now since you can watch the dub with the original score.

The core stories, characters, and plots are exactly the same. The voice actors all dramatically improved since they started. The show was never going to be a word to word translation of the Japanese scripts.

How it is now is irrelevant. When this dub first came out, there was no legal alternative to watching it in your own language.

The censorship (the next dimension, etc), the utterly stupid lines ("Just wait until it grows back!," "Nobody's in the city on a sunday," etc) there are plenty of these. Then there's the mischaracterizations ("hope of the universe" speech, Recoome, etc.) Not to mention the generally subpar acting.

I don't really care all that much about the attack names or the "Americanized" character names, although I think they are generally stupid and pointless. And Special Beam Cannon is undeniably stupid.

And then there is Linda Young's Freeza, who is worth an entire thread's worth of criticism in and of himself.

If your only problem with the old dub is a few misplaced facts, I really have to wonder about your ability to objectively criticize. Unless you haven't seen this dub, of course.

Also most of Goku's superhero traits in the dub are exaggerated by fans.

No, they really aren't. Have you seen the old dub? And by that, I mean other than when you watched it as a kid. If not, check it out again. Just for fun. I'm talking the original, U.S. aired dub, not the newer ultimate uncut ones.

[precita]

Most of the stuff you're talking about happened in the old Saban dub, which is now dead and buried. Its no longer relevant. The bulk of the lines you mentioned are not in the redub up until the Season 3 stuff.

I mean, what is the point of harping on an old outdated dub from 1997-1998? That's 17 years ago now. Its not even part of the FUNImation dub anymore.

[Kamiccolo9]

Most of the stuff you're talking about happened in the old Saban dub, which is now dead and buried. Its no longer relevant. The bulk of the lines you mentioned are not in the redub up until the Season 3 stuff.

I mean, what is the point of harping on an old outdated dub from 1997-1998? That's 17 years ago now. Its not even part of the FUNImation dub anymore.

Because that dub was the topic of this conversation? And the fact that there have been dubs since then does not in any way mean that that one no longer affects anything. That dub was the first glimpse of the series to many, many American fans. It's influence was huge.

[ABED]

It should also be noted that the dub was the ONLY way some people saw it. All they watched was the dub back in 99-03 and that's their version of the show. They never bought the DVD's, never watched the redub. The dub was it. I think more saw that than bought the DVDs.

[TheGreatness25]

So if most people in English-speaking countries saw the dub and fell in love with the series, you don't think that it was successful? If nobody liked the dub, then none of those people would care enough about the series to find the Japanese version. Face it, most English-speaking people who loved DB in the 90's loved that dub. There are two types of fans: the real fan of the Japanese version and the fake fan of the Japanese version. The real fan saw the dub (for example) and liked it, but found out about the Japanese version and legitimately likes it more. The fake fan (and this pertains to the more recent English-speaking fans) either liked the dub and think it's cool for them to bash it now because "all of the cool kids like the Japanese version" or never even saw it. It's just like GT. Do you know how many people have a deep-rooted hatred for GT...without ever having seen it?

It's okay to bash the dub for not being faithful or whatever, but you have to put it into context. It was a different time and a different era for anime. There was no anime market in the United States. All we had was Dragon Ball, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon. Years and years before that, we had Speed Racer, G-Force, and Astro Boy. You tell me how all of those shows were handled. What do they all have in common? That's right, they were all drastically changed. The culture in the United States was not tested against anime, nobody knew if it would fly, so the companies brought over those shows and tried to make them resemble an American cartoon.

It obviously worked since, arguably, Dragon Ball opened the flood gates of interest for anime. So to bash all of the decisions made with Dragon Ball in those early years is silly. Does it stray from the story? Sometimes. Are there cringe-worthy scenes? Definitely. But I am not convinced that anybody who ever liked DB in the 90's and early 00's didn't like that dub. They might like the Japanese version more, but to talk so low about the dub that led people to watch the Japanese version in the first place is just silly. Because God forbid someone could possibly like both versions, right? Or better yet, God forbid someone could just ACCEPT the dub.

And really, who cares if the dub is faithful to the Japanese version? Luckily for you, you have access to the Japanese version. If you prefer to watch "the real story the way it was meant to be seen," it's there for you. It's been there for you for years (since the very first release that FUNimation had with their in-house dub staff). They never tried to hide the Japanese version from you in hopes of you favoring theirs; they always put it out there for anyone who bought their products. So if that's what you prefer, God bless. But to constantly bash the dub, who many people are fans of, that's just so low. At least that's my opinion.

The chain is like this: There was no anime market in the U.S., Dragon Ball was brought over and adapted to have a shot in the U.S., people LOVED Dragon Ball Z (the dub obviously), people found out that Dragon Ball was an anime, people were interested to see what else is good from Japan's animation market, and today that interest has led to a whole ton of anime. Go log onto Netflix or Hulu and tell me how much anime there is. There are anime conventions. FUNimation has its own channel. There are several anime sources out there. If Dragon Ball Z (not even Dragon Ball) never took off in the U.S., there would arguably be no market for anime at all in the U.S. What I'm getting at is that it is absolutely clear that if there HAD BEEN an anime market in the U.S. the way it exists today, you can damn sure bet that Dragon Ball would be handled much, much differently. It was one of the pioneers for anime and I think as ridiculously goofy as it was, it's okay to want something much more faithful to the original, but it still deserves a ton of respect. People definitely don't respect the dub, which is sad. FUNimation themselves don't even respect their own work from back in the day. Listen to any interview where they talk about the old days where they basically mock the way they handled the dub. That's sad because they really need to emphasize just what kind of a different beast the market was back in that day which justified all of their decisions.

I guess it's not such an "exaggeration" since this debate never seems to end.

[Lunatic Fringe]

^^^

You could also argue that a drastic revision that FUNi did wasn't necessary to garner the attention and adulation from American audiences. It's like you said, a lot of the core elements of the story were still intact so why couldn't everything else(a more accurate representation of Freeza, less Kak-El, etc.) be faithfully adapted?

[TheGreatness25]

Sure, you can argue that, but I think everyone assumes that FUNimation saw all of Dragon Ball the way everyone here has. They were getting the episodes without having seen Dragon Ball or those past what they started working on. They interpreted Goku (based on the set of episodes in front of them) to be a hero like Superman, interpreted Freeza in a certain way, and that's how they proceeded. They didn't know what came before or after that little chunk of episodes they started on.

Hindsight is 20/20. We all know the story so we can point fingers, but if you're them and you get 20 foreign episodes in the middle of a series without having seen anything else, it's a little trickier than you think.

[Doctor.]

So if most people in English-speaking countries saw the dub and fell in love with the series, you don't think that it was successful? If nobody liked the dub, then none of those people would care enough about the series to find the Japanese version. Face it, most English-speaking people who loved DB in the 90's loved that dub. There are two types of fans: the real fan of the Japanese version and the fake fan of the Japanese version. The real fan saw the dub (for example) and liked it, but found out about the Japanese version and legitimately likes it more. The fake fan (and this pertains to the more recent English-speaking fans) either liked the dub and think it's cool for them to bash it now because "all of the cool kids like the Japanese version" or never even saw it. It's just like GT. Do you know how many people have a deep-rooted hatred for GT...without ever having seen it?

Alright, but what's your point here? We were talking about how the dub was an insult to Dragon Ball and to its fanbase. I don't see how the dub's success comes into play here. Kamiccolo has stated that he doesn't mind the dub, he grew up on it and that he still thinks it's an insult. I, too, think it's a humongous insult that a lot of people's first exposure to the franchise was such an inaccurate, poorly produced piece of garbage. Do a lot of people like it? Sure, but that's what some call nostalgia.

It's okay to bash the dub for not being faithful or whatever, but you have to put it into context. It was a different time and a different era for anime. There was no anime market in the United States. All we had was Dragon Ball, Pokemon, and Sailor Moon. Years and years before that, we had Speed Racer, G-Force, and Astro Boy. You tell me how all of those shows were handled. What do they all have in common? That's right, they were all drastically changed. The culture in the United States was not tested against anime, nobody knew if it would fly, so the companies brought over those shows and tried to make them resemble an American cartoon.

And those dubs were, too, insults to their respective franchise and its fanbase. It doesn't make it okay just because other dubs were like that as well.

But I am not convinced that anybody who ever liked DB in the 90's and early 00's didn't like that dub.

He can correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty positive that around that time VegettoEX was complaining about how awful the dub was.

They might like the Japanese version more, but to talk so low about the dub that led people to watch the Japanese version in the first place is just silly. Because God forbid someone could possibly like both versions, right? Or better yet, God forbid someone could just ACCEPT the dub.

And here you're confusing someone liking the dub with someone thinking it's bad. Nobody's crucifying you for liking the dub.

And really, who cares if the dub is faithful to the Japanese version?

Everyone should, because that's the main purpose of a dub, to accurately translate the source material's dialogue into another language so that other people, in other parts of the world, can get the best experience.

But to constantly bash the dub, who many people are fans of, that's just so low

Why? I see no reason as to why this is the case. Just because many people like something, it means you can't criticize it? I like the Portuguese dub, and I stand firmly behind the belief that it, too, is an inaccurate, poorly produced piece of garbage and an insult to Portuguese and non-Portuguese fans out there. The only difference here between that example and the one we're discussing right now is that I don't like the Funimation dub.

People definitely don't respect the dub, which is sad.

Because it doesn't deserve respect. Dragon Ball got so popular, why? Because of Dragon Ball itself, NOT because of the dub.

Funimation now, yes, does deserve respect. The old dub deserves all the mockery it gets.

[TheGreatness25]

To be clear, I'm saying that FUNimation did what it had to do in its time and people seem to think that they needed to produce a full and proper translation in an unproven market, when they only had a piece of the series to work with (not having seen the entire thing first). It's pretty annoying that people keep bringing up the same arguments. Yeah, there's nobody that says that it was accurate or 100% faithful to the original. We get it. But to keep beating a dead horse is pretty annoying at this point. Everybody knows all of your arguments. It's easy to sit back and criticize them. I'll hand you episodes 95-130 of a Russian cartoon that has music and characters that your target audience might not appreciate and I'll see how you do at dubbing it.

[Doctor.]

Then I don't get your point. All we were saying is that it's an insult. We never said people can't ENJOY the dub, we didn't say that the circumstances that made the dub turned out like it did weren't understandable. Your diatribe was unnecessary.

[fadeddreams5]

The characters are not the same. Goku's character was butchered, and God knows who else was too.

Besides the hope of the universe speech and a bit of other questionable dialogue, I think he's better. Kind of goes hand in hand with the way Toei wanted to portray him in the movies.

I'm glad this Goku hasn't changed that much. Even in the newer stuff, they tweak his dialogue to align him more to his original Funi dub incarnation. =P

[Doctor.]

The characters are not the same. Goku's character was butchered, and God knows who else was too.

Besides the hope of the universe speech and a bit of other questionable dialogue, I think he's better. Kind of goes hand in hand with the way Toei wanted to portray him in the movies.

I'm glad this Goku hasn't changed that much. Even in the newer stuff, they tweak his dialogue to align him more to his original Funi dub incarnation. =P

"Ignoring everything that's bad about his Funimation portrayal, I think he's better". How does that work? Goku is inconsistent in the Funimation dub, that's because sometimes he's portrayed correctly and other times he's not. And when he's not, it's a stupidly over-idealized version of a hero with an impeccable moral compass that Goku is not.

[fadeddreams5]

The characters are not the same. Goku's character was butchered, and God knows who else was too.

Besides the hope of the universe speech and a bit of other questionable dialogue, I think he's better. Kind of goes hand in hand with the way Toei wanted to portray him in the movies.

I'm glad this Goku hasn't changed that much. Even in the newer stuff, they tweak his dialogue to align him more to his original Funi dub incarnation. =P

"Ignoring everything that's bad about his Funimation portrayal, I think he's better". How does that work? Goku is inconsistent in the Funimation dub, that's because sometimes he's portrayed correctly and other times he's not. And when he's not, it's a stupidly over-idealized version of a hero with an impeccable moral compass that Goku is not.

I really don't see what's so wrong/bad about his Funimation portrayal (unless we're specifically talking about faithfulness to the original, in which case, I somewhat agree). How is it inconsistent? He has the traits of Japanese Goku (loves food, loves training, and loves fighting), but also holds the fate of the universe on his shoulders when universal threats arrive. I love the heroism on top of everything else that makes up his character. And I especially like how he's a tad more intellectual, albeit naive.

Goku to Gohan a regretful Funimation executive:
"Hey, who knows what would have happened. For all we know, what you did was the best move. Sometimes life's too uncertain to have regrets."

[Doctor.]

I really don't see what's so wrong/bad about his Funimation portrayal (unless we're specifically talking about faithfulness to the original, in which case, I somewhat agree). How is it inconsistent? He has the traits of Japanese Goku (loves food, loves training, and loves fighting), but also holds the fate of the universe on his shoulders when universal threats arrive. I love the heroism on top of everything else that makes up his character. And I especially like how he's a tad more intellectual, albeit naive.

Goku to Gohan a regretful Funimation executive:
"Hey, who knows what would have happened. For all we know, what you did was the best move. Sometimes life's too uncertain to have regrets."

I already said what's bad about it. It strips him away from his interesting characteristics and his flaws and makes him a generic, over-idealized western perception of a hero, who foolishly and childishly believes that everything he does is right and it's for the best. That's pathetic, that's generic, that's not Goku. Goku doesn't think what he does is good or bad, he does those things because he wants to or feels the need to do so for his friends and family. Even when he does something that could put his friends in danger, he still admits that he does that because he WANTS to, he doesn't make up some stupid reason that he did it because it's morally right to do it, like in the Funimation dub.

It's an absolute insult to the character, it's not Goku, it's not, it's not, it's not. And I cannot fathom how someone thinks he's in any way, shape or form, interesting or well-written.

[TheGreatness25]

Whether some people consider it better or not, changing a character's characteristics isn't the proper way to go about it, I think that's the whole issue. In the dub, Goku does have his moments where he feels that he needs to protect the world. He sometimes does come off Supermanish. Personally, I like that more than, "Well I just like to fight and who cares about anything else? Ba-haw-haw!" Still, it's true, that's not Goku. And actually, that's what makes me disappointed with Goku is that I find it sad that the hero of the story is a guy who only cares about doing whatever he wants. Ultimately, that does make him a bad father and a bad friend. He would rather go train somewhere than be with his family. Do people really prefer that? I mean, I guess that's fine, it's just such a stupid character. At least in the dub, although he does leave his family to go train Oob, in the very least you get the sense that he gives even the slightest bit of a damn about them.

[Doctor.]

If I wanted to like a Superman-esque character, I'd go and read Superman comics. Because, guess what? Those comics at least put Superman in situations where his personality and ideals make his decisions tough, the character has to think, the character has moral dilemmas because of his ideals, the character changes his ideals as the series goes on because of his experiences, the character is proven wrong and the character is proven right.

That doesn't happen with Funimation Goku, and it would never happen, because Goku wasn't written that way in the first place, so of course he wasn't put in situations where his heroic characteristics would force him into a tough decision. So, we're left with a character who, in the original series, develops and a character who, in the Funimation dub, remains a static, generic hero who thinks that his sense of morality is the only right one and he can never be proven wrong. Instead of actually being forced into moral dilemmas because of his heroic ideals, he just remains spouting the same bullshit over and over, and over again, who keeps taking the moral high ground over his opponents. He's a disgusting character.

[Kamiccolo9]

If I wanted to like a Superman-esque character, I'd go and read Superman comics. Because, guess what? Those comics at least put Superman in situations where his personality and ideals make his decisions tough, the character has to think, the character has moral dilemmas because of his ideals, the character changes his ideals as the series goes on because of his experiences, the character is proven wrong and the character is proven right.

That doesn't happen with Funimation Goku, and it would never happen, because Goku wasn't written that way in the first place, so of course he wasn't put in situations where his heroic characteristics would force him into a tough decision. So, we're left with a character who, in the original series, develops and a character who, in the Funimation dub, remains a static, generic hero who thinks that his sense of morality is the only right one and he can never be proven wrong. Instead of actually being forced into moral dilemmas because of his heroic ideals, he just remains spouting the same bullshit over and over, and over again, who keeps taking the moral high ground over his opponents. He's a disgusting character.

And then we get to the Buu Arc, where they are still portraying hero!Goku, but they're still confined by the way Toriyama writes him, so we have this "hero" completely about face into a stupid, negligent, sociopath, while still trying to make him out as this paragon of virtue.

[fadeddreams5]

I already said what's bad about it. It strips him away from his interesting characteristics and his flaws and makes him a generic, over-idealized western perception of a hero, who foolishly and childishly believes that everything he does is right and it's for the best.

What he does is for the best, most of the time, but he's also shown some regrets for his actions (Buu saga and Cell Games). It's not like he flies around defending peace around the Earth like Superman. He still focuses solely on universal threats that can also give him a challenge. He thrives on it while also being morally conscious.

That's pathetic, that's generic, that's not Goku. Goku doesn't think what he does is good or bad, he does those things because he wants to or feels the need to do so for his friends and family.

By nature, nobody does things thinking about the goodness or badness of their deed, but because they feel the need or want to (e.g. holding the door for someone). It just so happens, a lot of times, these actions are considered good deeds by convention. Goku has been shown to be selfless in past, especially in DB. It makes sense that, as an adult, he'd be able to bridge the gap between good and bad after his experiences, whether he acts for the sake of being a good guy or not.

Even when he does something that could put his friends in danger, he still admits that he does that because he WANTS to, he doesn't make up some stupid reason that he did it because it's morally right to do it, like in the Funimation dub.

Honestly, the only time I recall this was against Vegeta. And I don't like the thought of him letting him live just for his own satisfaction. I know that was a defining moment for him as a saiyan, but I don't like that. I don't know whether he helped Frieza for the same reason (as opposed to just being merciful) in the original, but if he did, then I can tell you I don't like this character at all.

It's an absolute insult to the character, it's not Goku, it's not, it's not, it's not. And I cannot fathom how someone thinks he's in any way, shape or form, interesting or well-written.

First of all, I disagree that he's not interesting. Secondly, you have to consider that this is the Goku many grew up with too. IIRC, you got into the series at a later age, so it's easier for you to consider him "generic." As a 6 or 8 year old, I didn't even know what that word meant. Goku was the first of his kind for me. He was my "Superman" before Superman.

I'm not gonna lie and say nostalgia doesn't play a significant role in my preference, but when I hear people say he's a Superman clone, I cant help but scratch my head because, first of all, he's not. He has easily definable traits that anybody who grew up watching the dub are aware of (his naivety, obsession with food, love of training/fighting, poor role as a father, and his stupid decisions). Secondly, being righteous and morally conscious shouldn't make people dislike a character--in fact, it's admirable! It's not like dub Goku is constantly making speeches about this, besides that one cringey dialogue to Frieza.

And mind you, despite the fact that I prefer dub Goku by a long shot, I do feel it is an insult to the original, as well as Faulconer's track (which I prefer over Kikuchi), Linda Young's Frieza, and the dialogue changes.

[Doctor.]

What he does is for the best, most of the time, but he's also shown some regrets for his actions (Buu saga and Cell Games). It's not like he flies around defending peace around the Earth like Superman. He still focuses solely on universal threats that can also give him a challenge. He thrives on it while also being morally conscious.

No, he thinks what he does is for the best. He doesn't care about any circumstances his opponents are in, he doesn't care about their past. All he does is defeat them, kill some of them and go on his merry way while still spouting the same self-righteous bullcrap as usual (yes, we know that what he does is for the best, but that's beyond the point). I don't find that entertaining. I think that's someone with his head too far up his own ass. In the original, again, Goku does that because he wants to, ignoring, most of the time, any moral repercussions that comes with his actions.

Look at the Red Ribbon Army. If Dub Goku was actually a shining beacon of morality as the dub tries to portray him as, then he'd try to reason with Gero because it's mostly his fault that Gero came for them in the first place.

By nature, nobody does things thinking about the goodness or badness of their deed, but because they feel the need or want to (e.g. holding the door for someone). It just so happens, a lot of time, these actions are considered good deeds by convention. And Goku has been shown to be selfless in past, especially in DB. It makes sense that, as an adult, he'd be able to bridge the gap between good and bad, whether he acts for the sake of being a good guy or not.

Yes, and that's what Goku does. He's a normal person with selfish and selfless actions. He's NOT portrayed as a role model or a superhero, he's portrayed as a normal person. Like I said, he's an over-idealized version of a western hero in the dub, any flaws in his character are either omitted or severely downplayed for his heroic characteristics. If you can't see how the former is more interesting than the latter, then I'm sorry, I guess.

Honestly, the only time I recall this was against Vegeta. And I don't like the thought of him letting him live just for his own satisfaction. I know that was a defining moment for him as a saiyan, but I don't like that. I don't know whether he helped Freeza for the same reason (as opposed to just being merciful) in the original, but if he did, then I can tell you I don't like this character at all.

You can not like the character. But it's still an insult to any Dragon Ball fan that they changed the MAIN character so much to the point where he's radically different. For what? Because he'd seem to rude to western audiences? So they're basically admitting that they think their audience is dumb and can't understand a character with more than one layer to his personality.

Goku being an asshole is what makes him likable to me. Because, amidst a series with flying aliens who shoot laser beams, it makes him somewhat relatable.

Secondly, being self-righteous and morally conscious shouldn't make people dislike a character--in fact, it's admirable!

It's not admirable if, like Kamiccolo explained, he's being a shithead asshole like Toriyama wrote him and the dub is STILL portraying him as a role model to follow.

[TheGreatness25]

Agh what the damn hell?

Seriously, this is what's wrong with this whole thing - people throw out their ideas as if their side is "right."

If you prefer Goku in the dub, there you go, dub Goku for you. You got it. If you prefer original Goku and the Japanese version, bam, you got it. Nobody's hiding it from you, nobody's telling you that you can't watch it.

The problem is when one side decides to overstep to the other side. It's all subjective. You can't convince someone that what you like is better than what they like. All you can do is explain what you like and why you like it. But there is no right or wrong way to enjoy Dragon Ball.

Toei gave FUNimation full legal rights to do whatever they want with the material. So yeah, FUNimation adapted it. They did whatever they did and it wasn't right or wrong, it was all allowed by Toei. The same way that Toei was allowed to make filler material and changes as they saw fit to Akira Toriyama's work.

It's all well and good to like what you like and be passionate about it, but have some respect for the other side. Because really, it's annoying that each side keeps trying to force the other side to believe what they want. And don't say, "I'm not saying you can't enjoy the dub," that's basically what you're saying. You're passionately arguing that it's complete garbage and you can't enjoy it at all. It would be fine if it ended there, but this is something that goes back and forth, so yeah, you're kind of forcing your opinion on people who don't agree with it.

I swear, this is the never-ending battle.