Vegeta vs Goku: Who was the true winner?

Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Post by Lavender Saiyan » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:30 am

ChibiKenji wrote:Goku won their first fight. Vegeta was trying to conquer the Earth, Goku was protecting it; Vegeta fled the Earth, licking his wounds. He might have been in better physical shape than Goku at the end of their bout, but Goku was the one that achieved his objective.
Good point. Plus, Goku was the first person to really humiliate him that we know of. Remember, Vegeta was forced to take on the Oozaru form, a form made for wiping out large large masses of strong races. Not one mere person. Plus Vegeta also realizes, that Goku's lack of a tail gave him the Oozaru advantage. In their Base form fight, Goku came out the winner.

As for their second fight, they were even. Vegeta merely tricked Goku to win the fight, that's not how Vegeta wants to win. Plus Goku was hiding SSJ3, Goku was far his superior.
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Post by gohanku » Fri Jan 12, 2007 3:50 am

My options:
First fight's Winner: Vegeta
Goku might have won the war but Vegeta won the battle, if Yajirobe did not arrive in time, Goku would be seeing King Kai again...

Second Fight's Winner: Goku
Goku would win due them being equal at SSJ2 so with SSJ3, Goku would win easily. Too bad, Majin Vegeta cold cocked him.
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Post by sailorspazz » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:04 am

I don't think Vegeta cared that much about conquering the Earth. He mainly came to get the Dragon Balls to wish for immortality (which....he also failed at doing, but that's not the point :P). If his main goal had been to conquer Earth, he could have just done it instead of waiting the 3 hours to give Gokuu a chance to show up. His desire for a good fight overtook any of the missions he may have initially intended to complete.

So, uh, anyway, I would have to say that for the first fight, while Vegeta was the winner on paper, in his mind it was a loss because he was supposed to achieve an easy victory over a low class Saiyan, but instead he had to fight for his life just to get away (though if Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe hadn't shown up things would have been different, since at least he could have killed the one who humiliated him instead of spending years and years trying to better him....but even if he had killed Gokuu he probably wouldn't have been too happy since he had to put so much effort into the fight).
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Post by Victator Supreme » Fri Jan 12, 2007 4:45 am

I don't think Goku would have needed twenty minutes at SSj3 to defeat Vegeta.
He could have blown himself up to beat him. But I don't think Vegeta was that crazy. Goku was not going to use SS3 on Vegeta regardless. His sense of fair play was too great.

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Fri Jan 12, 2007 5:02 am

Victator Supreme wrote:He could have blown himself up to beat him. But I don't think Vegeta was that crazy. Goku was not going to use SS3 on Vegeta regardless. His sense of fair play was too great.
Indeed. This is a guy who allowed Piccolo a free full-force punch during their 23rd Budokai duel after Kami briefly interfered. Not to mention giving Cell a senzu before sending his son into the lion's den. :shock:
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Post by BROLEROT » Fri Jan 12, 2007 6:35 am

When Vegeta Met Goku after Vegeta returned from the afterlife there was a coversation between them that comes to mind.Vegeta was pissed off as he had descovered Goku could have gone ss3 in their fight. He said something about Goku bringing shame on him by allowing Vegeta to think he could have actually have had a chance of victory (as goku could have put an end to the fight with ss3).This to me suggests Vegeta counted the battle as his defeat simply because he knew that Goku was saving his feelings by consealing his new ss3 form which even with his majin power up he could not compete with.

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Post by Victator Supreme » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:46 am

Another reason Goku did not use Super Saiyan 3 was he knew it would drain his time on earth. Also as great the SSJ3 power is, I do not think he could have defeated Vegeta with it, without killing him. Goku was not going to do that. So I'm guessing even terribly out matched, Vegeta could have held his own with SSJ3 Goku. Which would have only accomplished two things

1. Goku wasting his remaining time on earth.

2. Beating Vegeta half to death.

With Buu on the verge of being free that would be a huge risk. Not to mention that fighting at SSJ 3 might have have excellerated Buu's resurection.

Regardless Vegeta felt humiliated because Goku did not fight him as a SSJ 3.

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Post by BROLEROT » Fri Jan 12, 2007 8:59 am

I think you are giving Vegeta too much credit in terms of how he would have faired against ss3 Goku . Vegeta was easily defeated by fat buu and Goku said he probably could have destroyed fat buu as a ss3.It wouldn't have taken Goku long as a ss3 to wear Vegeta down and from there reguardless of how many times Vegeta got back up he wouldn't have been powerful enough to cause Goku much exertion.

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Post by BROLEROT » Fri Jan 12, 2007 9:24 am

I was sad when GT ended without a final Goku versus Vegeta fight.It goes without saying that Vegeta would have had to have been a ss4 for it to have been a fair fight. Also Bulma would have had to sap Vegeta every so often with her machine in order for him to remain ss4.It would have allowed a best out of 3 for this thread but I guess there is no point talking about something that didn't come close to happening.

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Post by Victator Supreme » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:03 am

Vegeta was able to survive againt Kid Buu with out being destroyed or beaten unconcioius. The fight with Fat Buu was cut short when Vegeta realised a suicide attack was the only hope for victory. Not to say he would have won. But he would have lasted a long time without being killed.

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Post by wannywan » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:13 am

BROLEROT, please don't double post, it's a bit of a no-no on the forums. You can use the Edit button to add more to your original post though :D


I haven't seen any GT, so how does the Goku vs. Baby Vegeta fight work out?

I know Goku probably wins, but does he do it convincingly?

As Conan said, it could be classed as a 'round 3'.
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Post by Rocketman » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:31 am

Lavender Saiyan wrote:Good point. Plus, Goku was the first person to really humiliate him that we know of. Remember, Vegeta was forced to take on the Oozaru form, a form made for wiping out large large masses of strong races. Not one mere person. Plus Vegeta also realizes, that Goku's lack of a tail gave him the Oozaru advantage. In their Base form fight, Goku came out the winner.
I disagree. Had they continued to fight at base, Vegeta would have won. Kaioken x4 had hurt Goku's body badly, I doubt he could've used Kaioken again for any real length of time, and without the Kaioken, Vegeta is still his better.

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Post by Mr.Piccolo » Fri Jan 12, 2007 10:39 am

Conan the SSJ wrote:
Victator Supreme wrote:He could have blown himself up to beat him. But I don't think Vegeta was that crazy. Goku was not going to use SS3 on Vegeta regardless. His sense of fair play was too great.
Indeed. This is a guy who allowed Piccolo a free full-force punch during their 23rd Budokai duel after Kami briefly interfered. Not to mention giving Cell a senzu before sending his son into the lion's den. :shock:
Goku's intentions worked out for the better: It was a tournament match and Goku was testing his limits; not the limits of him and Kami. As for giving the senzu to Piccolo, if Piccolo was to die, there would be no dragonball which they would probably need again within the next 100 years. :) As for Cell's senzu, its only fair. If a tired Cell was to fight Gohan, Cell would get desperate/serious and the situation could've gotten worse. Besides Goku had an idea of Gohan's hidden power, so the senzu was probably for pity/fair play. As for him not going SSj3 against Vegeta, it wasn't for fair play at all. He wanted a good, even match. He is a saiyan after all.:roll: I just want to confirm that we all agree that Vegeta was obviously stronger than Goku in the first fight, right?
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Post by wannywan » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:03 am

Mr.Piccolo wrote:I just want to confirm that we all agree that Vegeta was obviously stronger than Goku in the first fight, right?
-Rick
I agree totally, but he didn't have some techniques Goku had, and vice versa.

In my opinion Vegeta (would have) won that one.
Last edited by wannywan on Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:25 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BROLEROT » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:13 am

[quote="wannywan"]BROLEROT, please don't double post, it's a bit of a no-no on the forums. You can use the Edit button to add more to your original post though :D


I haven't seen [i]any[/i] GT, so how does the Goku vs. Baby Vegeta fight work out?

I know Goku probably wins, but does he do it convincingly?

As Conan said, it could be classed as a 'round 3'.[/quote]

I would say convincingly judging by their final fight.The fight between baby and ss4 Goku before the final fight was unfair due to evil bulma using her machine to give Baby extra power and Baby forcing Goku to waste loads of energy Protecting the planet so I am not taking that into account.

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Post by BROLEROT » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:25 am

[quote="Victator Supreme"]Vegeta was able to survive againt Kid Buu with out being destroyed or beaten unconcioius. The fight with Fat Buu was cut short when Vegeta realised a suicide attack was the only hope for victory. Not to say he would have won. But he would have lasted a long time without being killed.[/quote]

As I recall after a few bitch slaps from Kid Buu Vegeta couldn't even land a punch or defend himself. That was in the space of a minute maybe less.If Fat Buu had not saved him Kid Buu would have destroyed Vegeta and in the space of a few minutes.Since Goku was not far off Kid Buu I would say a similar thing would happen to Vegeta if he fought ss3 Goku.By this a mean Vegeta would be able to land a few hits to little effect and after he has received some himself he would be unable to defend himself let alone land any attacks.

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Post by Mr.Piccolo » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:37 am

You do understand that you just quoted someone asking you not to double post by double-posting, right? :shock:
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Post by Maphisto86 » Fri Jan 12, 2007 11:49 am

I don't usually view the conflict between Goku and Bebi-Vegeta as a third rematch for two reasons:

1) It's GT.... yeah I know but some fans may not count it as canon and they have good reason to do so. If you like the series fine... but my next reason is more relevant....

2) It was not Vegeta Goku was fighting but really Bebi (Baby!? I get the pun but :x). The battle was not naturally a fight with Vegeta. Had GT Vegeta and Goku gone at it the results would have been quite different. Not only do you have a alien personality fighting in place of Vegeta but also an alien situation. It was all Bebi not Vegeta who was doing the fighting and the circumstances allowed him and Goku to do things that would not have been possible otherwise (i.e. become oozaru's, Bulma's bruits wave machine, etc).

So to me the last fight we see between Goku and Vegeta before the end of Dragonball is on earth prior and during Buu's release. I can't remember them really fighting in GT (and no I don't count Vegeta's "grab Kakarroto as a giant ape" gimmick as a conflict between them) so the last fight we know of is the SSJ2 Goku v.s. Majin Vegeta showdown.

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Post by Conan the SSJ » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:01 pm

wannywan wrote:I haven't seen any GT, so how does the Goku vs. Baby Vegeta fight work out?

I know Goku probably wins, but does he do it convincingly?

As Conan said, it could be classed as a 'round 3'.
I believe Goku pulls it off with convincing action. The Goku Vs. Bebi-Vegeta battle was actually, IMO, a very fantastic fight. It seemed to me the most DBZ battle of the GT series next to the final encounter with Super Yi Xing Long. Vegeta on his own was apparently still at the level of power he was at the end of DBZ, still capable of going SSJ2 and because Gohan completely slacked, Vegeta was now the stronger of those two. Bebi saw this and decided to make Vegeta his "permanent" host, which resulted in many physical changes when Bebi utilized his SSJ2 power.

Major Spoiler Warning:

Basically, the battle starts with Goku going SSJ3 for the first time in his child form. However, because that high a level could only be sustained by an adult body or two combined child forms, Goku couldn't peek to his 100%. He subsequently dropped out of the form and Bebi-Vegeta took that chance to beat the living daylights out of him. He then borrowed the energy of the half-Saiyans to intensify his form, and then borrowed from the entire planet's populous. This resulted in Bebi-Vegeta taking a form that looked like a gap between SSJ2 and SSJ3, as he was devoid of any eyebrows and his eyes went pure blue, but his hair was now a bizarre white color due to the Tsufurujin DNA. He launches his ultimate attack, the Revenge Death-Ball, upon a beaten and battered Goku who's ready to meet his end, only for Kabitoshin to rescue him at the last second.

Bebi-Vegeta basically assumed he'd killed Goku. But now thanks to Kabitoshin and the Elder Kaioshin, Goku took up "special" training with the full purpose to grow his tail back. Apparently since a Saiyan is considered more powerful with a tail, Goku would be able to sustain his SSJ3 form longer. By the time Goku had returned to battle (which would at this point be on the new Planet Plant rather than Earth), Super Uub (Uub with the merged Buu inside him) had been overwhelmed by Bebi and devoured because of his own attack, despite the two being evenly matched.

Goku fiercely starts the battle back up by transforming to each of his super levels until finally getting to his 100% SSJ3, gold tail and all. He seemed to be giving Bebi a run for his money, however due to the parasite's highly advanced form, he was still the superior of the two and outclassed Goku. Goku was then knocked to a mountain lodge where he dropped out of SSJ3 for good. However, just as Bebi-Vegeta made his move to finish the battle, Goku caught view of the full Earth in orbit. Subconsciously absorbing its Bruitz Waves, he began to transform into the form he hadn't assumed for decades.

Bebi-Vegeta is caught by surprise as Goku becomes the form that Vegeta originally assumed the Legendary Super Saiyan took, a Golden Oozaru. Goku was basically out of control due to both being a child again and never mastering control of the original form. Bebi-Vegeta actually showed a slither of noble actions as he attempted to destroy the Ape while protecting his possessed people. However, he was caught off guard by Goku's massive power increase, getting knocked flat. Goku though, having done some damage to Bebi, moved outside the city where Pan attempted to get him to regain control.

After much pleading, and through help of some photos taken when Pan was just a baby, Goku slowly started to remember his life and family. This triggered an emotional rage within him as he reached for the Earth and started to feature to a near divine gold glow. With his body physically changing, we suddenly get a peek into his very spirit, seeing both the embodiments of his child and adult forms. Due to the unpredictable transformation taking place, the adult essence reaches for the Earth and triggers one last occurrence in the transformation. As Pan looks on at a huge cloud of smoke clearing, she bears witness to Super Saiyan 4 Goku.

Goku, now literally a cross between his Oozaru form and his adult body in its prime, blasts off for Bebi. Meanwhile, Bebi's trying to figure out why he can't utilize a great Ape transformation as well. He learns from Bulma it's because he doesn't have a tail, and with that realization, Goku finds him. They start the battle, with it looking like Bebi has the upper hand at first, but in reality Goku is toying with him. After Bebi hits him with a Revenge Death-Ball, Goku emerges from the smoke un-scinged. He then proceeds to beat the hell out of Bebi, clearly proving he was truly the superior in every sense, assaulting Bebi similar to how his Kaioken x3 self owned Vegeta in their first battle.

With Bebi clearly fearing he'll be killed with a next attack, the possessed Bulma contacts him and lets him know she can transform him as well. Manipulating the full amount of Earth's Bruitz Waves directly upon Bebi, the Tsufurujin-Saiyan then proceeds to transform directly into a Golden Oozaru, now posing a true threat. Goku suspects Bebi can't control the form and attempts to teleport him to the Kaioshin planet, however Bebi lays a trap and assaults him with an upgraded Death-Ball, possibly dropping Goku's power to an even match with his own. Learning Bebi actually does have full control, but that his own logic and reasoning is slowly eroding (as evident when he nearly destroys the rest of his people still on Earth), Goku releases his first 10x Kamehame-Ha attack. However, unknown to Bebi, the SSJ4 makes sure it effects him in a delayed-reaction manner so that Vegeta won't die.

With the two evenly squared off, they charge one another and strike, leading to a double knockout. They fall unconscious, Bebi-Vegeta clearly still in his Golden Oozaru form, and Goku apparently powerful enough to retain his SSJ4 while knocked out. It's during this that the Kaioshins devise a strategy and smuggle the Cleansing Water from the Lookout that was used to cure Garlic Jr.'s victims, and proceed to use it to cure Gohan, Goten, and Trunks. While Kabitoshin goes to heal Trunks first, Bulma in her insane way activates the Bruitz Wave device one more time, which miraculously revives Bebi back to full power. Luckily, Goku is very slightly hit by the waves, which in effect revives him too.

With Golden Oozaru Bebi-Vegeta back to full power, SSJ4 Goku is still severely weakened and relies on bluffing to buy some time. This ends up working against him as Bebi assaults him to a bloody rampage, with Goku wearily standing wondering what to do. Pan however interferes before Bebi can make a killing strike, letting loose her own rage on the Ape for his pointless takeover of the Earth. Pan gets knocked aside, and Bebi heads to finish her off. Goku threatens to release his last Kamehame-Ha he has to kill him, but Bebi figures he's still bluffing. Just as Goku's about to fire all he has left, Trunks shows up with an attack that knocks Bebi off guard.

Trunks tries his hand on Bebi, but clearly has no flinching effect even in his SSJ form. Getting knocked down, Trunks is saved by the arrival of Gohan and Goten. The half-Saiyans land by Goku ready to give the Ape everything they got while Kabitoshin helps Pan up. Goten suggests Fusion to Trunks to increase their odds and Gohan agrees that's their best bet, but Goku sternly disagrees that Gotenks and Gohan combined wouldn't be enough to defeat him. He then asks for them to give him their energy just like they gave it to Bebi, betting on it to restore him to his full maximum power. Bebi doesn't wanna risk it though and attacks. Gohan saves Goku and flies him off while Goten and Trunks scramble. Goku thanks Gohan and tells him to close his eyes, hitting Bebi with the Taiyoken.

Now with an open opportunity, Gohan, Trunks, and Goten surround Goku and power up, but just before they can start donating, Bebi-Vegeta pops up above them recovered from the Taiyoken and powering up a Super Galick-Ho. However, just before he fires, he's overpowered by something from the inside of Vegeta's giant Ape body. Uub is still alive and apparently because he and Bebi were evenly matched, his Chocolate attack was launched with a back-up solution. With Uub keeping Bebi's insides in a tortured state, Gohan and the others power up again to their maximums and are joined by Pan. As they contribute their energy to Goku, Bebi overpowers Uub's stranglehold and spits him out.

Just as Goku receives enough energy to reach full power, Bebi shoots a Super Galick-Ho, knocking out the exhausted Gohan, Trunks, and Goten. As it looks like Pan is dead, Mr. Satan at last works up all the courage he's suppressed over the years and is ready to take on Bebi himself, not caring about death. But just as Bebi's about to crush him, Goku's voice surprises them both from up in the sky, holding a safe Pan. Goku lowers back to the ground, handing Pan to her maternal Grandfather, as Gohan and the others come to witnessing the spectacular maximum of Goku's SSJ4 form. Goku's body emanates a nearly demonic looking red glow and he is ready to truly end the battle. SSJ4 Goku and Golden Oozaru Bebi-Vegeta power up and collide their Ki with one another, both ready to conclude the battle.

The two warriors engage in a massive energy attack battle, whilst Gohan, Uub, and the others marvel at the display. After the incredible Ki attack exchanges, both emerge from a massive crater. Bebi's clearly breathing heavily, very fatigued. Goku on the other hand is showing no signs of slowing down, perfectly fine. Bebi shoots one more Super Galick-Ho out of desperation, only for it to miss Goku. Bebi starts to tremble when he learns of this, now desperate and insane enough to launch all he has left, even if it means the destruction of his planet. He powers up one final Revenge Death-Ball, putting every ounce of his Golden Oozaru energy into it, and launches it dead-on toward Goku. Goku begins to be enveloped by the attack, clearly feeling the massive power Bebi put into it, but swears this won't kill him. With that, Goku manipulates the Death-Ball itself and energizes it into common dusts.

As Bebi stands powerless and shocked, trembling at the awesome power that is Goku's final form, the pure blooded Saiyan launches one last Kamehame-Ha at Bebi, knocking him down for the count and powerless. However, Bebi is still barely alive, leaving Goku pondering on what to do. Not wanting to kill Vegeta, Goku goes for a long-shot and launches an energy blast at Bebi-Vegeta's tailbone, completely blasting his tail off. With no tail intact, the Tsufurujin-Saiyan proceeds to de-transform back into his previous form. Now utterly and completely powerless, Bebi-Vegeta lies on the ground defeated, leaving Bebi no choice but to abandon Vegeta's body. This battle is finished, in a sense Goku and Vegeta's third round, Goku is the victor.

(For the record with Bebi himself, he tries escaping the planet in a ship, however Goku launches one last Kamehame-Ha as it exists the atmosphere and sends it straight to the sun, killing Bebi and his insane Tsufurujin essence)
14 years later

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Post by wannywan » Fri Jan 12, 2007 12:10 pm

Mr.Piccolo wrote:You do understand that you just quoted someone asking you not to double post by double-posting, right? :shock:
-Rick
Oh the irony...

Anyway... Conan, how dare you tempt me with your massive spoiler? Of course I'm not going to read it, but you've made the fight sound good.

[edit: How did you bother to type all that out? :o ]
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