Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:06 pm

WARNING! LONG ASS POST 'BOUT SUPER SAIYANS INCOMING!!

Unless further elaborated upon, I will for now just consider Vegeta's training under Whis to have been nothing special and basically "mountain training" with a bonus exercise consisting of surviving a blast from sleeping Beerus.

I can accept this as making sense, as the Saiyans mostly just concentrated on increasing their power through their Super Saiyan forms rather than going back to basics(though pre 25th TB we see all the Saiyans training in base and BoG and Super's BoG Arc show it too), because that would take too long.
I think Toriyama has tried going for this "basics is best" approach ever since the Cell Arc in which he had Goku discard the bulky forms and concentrate on basic SS, taking the slow, but ultimately more rewarding approach, rather than the quick fix, that ultimately proves worthless, when taken to its limit.
In the Buu Arc Toriyama does it again, having Gohan discard all Super Saiyan forms, being at his most powerful in base, with the Elder Kaioshin being particularly dismissive towards Super Saiyan.
And now finally in BoG, post God Goku now only focuses on base and Super Saiyan and has discarded SS2 and 3.
Of course the concept is not really explained that well and it has taken this long for Toriyama to start providing us with better explanations for why base is better. The fact, that he isn't limited by a 13 page manga on a weekly schedule has no doubt made him inclined to provide more exposition.

I for one think, as I have made clear a couple of times, that all forms of Super Saiyan are just manifestations of Saiyans' hidden power, hidden power they are capable of achieving in base with enough training. They transform because they are drawing out power, that their body cannot completely handle, resulting in a state that isn't stable and it just gets worse the farther they go with Super Saiyan 3 as the worst, obviously.

The original Super Saiyan level, I think should not be achievable by weak Saiyans. I'd personally have the minimum requirement at Battle Power = 1,000,000, 'cause it's such a nice round number and it also helps justify, why Gohan didn't turn Super, when having his rage boosts against Freeza(when he attacked 3rd form Freeza, he could have a rage boosted power of say 900,000 and then his ki blast being double that, justifying Freeza having trouble with it). In any case as we can see it takes an exceptional Saiyan to achieve Super Saiyan and a popular fan theory is that their near death power-ups being so massive was a result of them breaking past their natural limits and drawing closer to Super Saiyan. I believe that too.
People are going to argue Future SS Trunks vs Future base Gohan, but I have my own head-canon for that too. So Future Gohan has in over 10 years still not been able go past the normal Super Saiyan tier(I view all SS forms as existing within specific tiers, Future Gohan and Future Trunks being the lowest in the initial SS tier). I personally believe that Gohan was just too stupid to realize what lay ahead(SS Grade II/III/FP) and so he just trained in base and SS, but while he barely made any gains in SS, his base form became hella strong and was thus capable of tangling with an inexperience SS(note I don't really care much for multipliers either).

The musclebound Super Saiyan forms I see as a Super Saiyan trying to forcibly draw out his hidden power, but it resulting in an even more unstable form, that the Saiyan can negate after exclusively training the Super Saiyan form, so it can handle that level of power without bulking up(Super Saiyan Full Power). Going back to basics with the Super Saiyan form also resulted in the Saiyans drawing closer to the new realm that lay ahead, which Gohan achieves at the Cell Games(Super Saiyan 2, duh). I basically described that as how Whis explained it to the Oracle Fish, but I believe it's basically the same thing that's going on in both of those scenarios.

Super Saiyan 3 is then the Super Saiyan line taken to its extreme and I feel comfortable saying, that in Toriyama's DB, this is as far as the Super Saiyan line can go(given Vegeta can surpass a SS3, just using SS2, it seems pertinent to question whether or not SS3 would be achievable by normal standards, but I tend to ignore that, as it goes against my head-canon and I can't have that!). From here on, the only way Saiyans can get stronger again is by drawing out all that power in their neglected base states. Gohan is given a shortcut to that power(and for the record, I'm not buying for one second he could go SS anymore, I prefer to look at what happened in BoG as Gohan originally having been written as a SS, as that would be just up Toriyama's alley to nerf Gohan, so others can look good, only for Gohan to end up in "fake" Ultimate form anyways) and if he had trained over the years, maybe he would have eventually achieved SSGSS.

I consider Super Saiyan God to be a shortcut to that realm of power(SSGSS), whereas Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is the hard way to achieve that power, but perhaps more rewarding as they can transform into it on their own, whereas Goku needed the help of 5 others to do so, ran out of time, luckily managed to remember that realm, but then returning to the state for one last time to negate Beerus' blast. Originally Goku was just going to be using base and SS from now on, as SS at least was supposed to be as good as God form, but then SSGSS happened and Toriyama's oft quoted script had that line and now Super makes it sound like base Goku and Vegeta are terribly weak compared to SS.
So what is the truth now? I wish Toriyama could just explain the whole deal in no uncertain terms, but for now every other material will keep on stating, that SSGSS/SSB is a more powerful form, so that's what we have to go with until something says something significantly differently.

Hope this post gets read at least. It's been a long time, since I have rambled so much :P

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:58 pm

I mostly agree with your theory dbgtFO, so I'll highlight what I disagree bouncing off my own ideas.
dbgtFO wrote:I for one think, as I have made clear a couple of times, that all forms of Super Saiyan are just manifestations of Saiyans' hidden power, hidden power they are capable of achieving in base with enough training.
I view Super Saiyan has a evolutionary state, created by the need for power to survive. Like how a person can get super strong with an adrenaline rush. So I don't think it's possible to achieve all of Super Saiyan power in base. A big part sure, but there would always be a need to transform, to get a little boost the way current Goku and Vegeta use SSB.
dbgtFO wrote:The original Super Saiyan level, I think should not be achievable by weak Saiyans.
I think this is true with the exception of those who have the Super Saiyan gene, Goten and Trunks. Who have access to the mastered Super Saiyan state, without any minimum requirement of strength. I also believe the zenkais were a manifestation of the evolution to reach SSJ state, that's why they disappeared after getting the state. While I don't have a minimum power level, my theory is that the moment Zenkais stop you are strong enough to achieve the transformation.
dbgtFO wrote:From here on, the only way Saiyans can get stronger again is by drawing out all that power in their neglected base states. Gohan is given a shortcut to that power(and for the record, I'm not buying for one second he could go SS anymore, I prefer to look at what happened in BoG as Gohan originally having been written as a SS, as that would be just up Toriyama's alley to nerf Gohan, so others can look good, only for Gohan to end up in "fake" Ultimate form anyways) and if he had trained over the years, maybe he would have eventually achieved SSGSS.
The Elder Kai power up, is close to the SSJG ritual just without the God Ki. I don't think it's impossible for Gohan to transform into SSJ, he's kinda in the same situation as Goku before getting SSB. Although the power up might be slipping away because Gohan doesn't train.
dbgtFO wrote:So what is the truth now? I wish Toriyama could just explain the whole deal in no uncertain terms, but for now every other material will keep on stating, that SSGSS/SSB is a more powerful form, so that's what we have to go with until something says something significantly differently.
I'm hopping for a more detailed explanation to. I predict we'll have the answer by the end of FnF Arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:18 pm

Rewatching the latest episode I completely missed that Beerus destroyed a planet by sneezing. Kinda odd that a Ki ball came out of his nose but ok :lol:.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:49 pm

I remember in RoF that was just a star, wasn't?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by saunasolmu » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:10 am

Noah wrote:I remember in RoF that was just a star, wasn't?
It was a planet as well, but Whis states after it that once Beerus destroyed two suns and he had to rewind time after that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:26 am

Noah wrote:I remember in RoF that was just a star, wasn't?
Something like that happened in the RoF manga, but in the movie it was just a planet.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Wed Nov 25, 2015 1:25 pm

LightBing wrote:I view Super Saiyan has a evolutionary state, created by the need for power to survive. Like how a person can get super strong with an adrenaline rush. So I don't think it's possible to achieve all of Super Saiyan power in base. A big part sure, but there would always be a need to transform, to get a little boost the way current Goku and Vegeta use SSB.
Granted, I too think that's what Toriyama will be going for. He likely doesn't want the classic SS design to be completely scrapped in favor of base, who knows maybe that was a contributing factor to why Gohan didn't get to finish off Buu :P
I just put a lot of stock in Elder Kaioshin's statement about SS not being the right way of doing things, but maybe his power-up got Gohan even beyond his base limit, so he wouldn't need SS like he would, if he had trained normally?
I think this is true with the exception of those who have the Super Saiyan gene, Goten and Trunks. Who have access to the mastered Super Saiyan state, without any minimum requirement of strength. I also believe the zenkais were a manifestation of the evolution to reach SSJ state, that's why they disappeared after getting the state. While I don't have a minimum power level, my theory is that the moment Zenkais stop you are strong enough to achieve the transformation.
Oh yeah, I also agree with that part of the "zenkai" theory.
The Elder Kai power up, is close to the SSJG ritual just without the God Ki. I don't think it's impossible for Gohan to transform into SSJ, he's kinda in the same situation as Goku before getting SSB. Although the power up might be slipping away because Gohan doesn't train.
It's just so ingrained in my mind that Super Saiyan is a power-up, so I personally can't accept Ultimate Gohan going SS without also getting stronger.
I'm hopping for a more detailed explanation to. I predict we'll have the answer by the end of FnF Arc.
Personally I'm not getting my hopes, but maybe Toriyama could do another Q&A with Naho Oiishi?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:45 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:We've been over this already. If Herms' translation is accurate, which is that SSGSS is a Super Saiyan "that is" (which means equivalent to) a Saiyan with the power of SSG, then that is the only possible way to interpret that statement. If the translation is inaccurate, only then would the discrepancy in Dokkan Battle be explained - otherwise, Dokkan Battle itself could plausibly be misinterpreting the statement.
I don't interpret the line as if it's talking about battle powers when it talks about power. In his base form, Goku has the power of SSG. Maybe not all of it, but it's still the power of SSG. Same with SSB, he has the power of SSG, and the form itself can't exist without the power of SSG, but that doesn't mean that he is as strong as a SSG.

And you'll have to prove that Dokkan Battle misinterpreted the line, or that their interpretation is invalid. The way they used the line means that my interpretation of the line in the movie works, and the things we got from BoG show, IMO, that my interpretation was the intended interpretation of the line in the movie. Is it possible that Dokkan Battle & Super (anime & manga) got the line wrong, and
Baseless assumption on your part. He likely fought better as a Super Saiyan because, like in all instances where Goku fights better as a Super Saiyan, he did so simply because SS is a stronger transformation. In BoG's case, it could very well be because SS draws out more of SSG's power than he is otherwise capable of drawing out in base.
He fought much better as a Super Saiyan than he did as a Super Saiyan God at full power, and we know that he isn't stronger as a SS than a SSG.
Also a baseless assumption, because you have no of way of quantifying that. It only seems to you that Goku's base form could perform equally to SSG when the reality of the situation is that we barely saw him fight in base after the absorption.
In both SSG at full power & base, we see the same thing. Goku blocking or taking Beerus' hits, and only in base he managed to land a few hits thanks to Shunkan Ido.
I don't know where you get the idea that Toriyama's interview implies that Goku's base form is as strong as SSG, simply because he said that Goku no longer needs SSG, when we explicitly saw him perform better as a Super Saiyan post-absorption.
But Beerus doesn't say anything different about Goku's base or SS forms, he only talks about Goku's power after SSG ended. He didn't say anything like "After you lost God and became a Super Saiyan, your power didn't change much compared to God's". He only talked about the effect that losing SSG had, he didn't say anything about what SS did.


The whole point of Goku absorbing the power of SSG was to show that SSG is a useless form now, not some lost power, and even Toriyama confirms this. Why bring a new form in the next movie with the power of a useless form?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:53 pm

So as now who are the top ten strongest characters in the series right now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Nov 25, 2015 7:58 pm

pacz360 wrote:So as now who are the top ten strongest characters in the series right now.
In Super only? Vados, Whis, Beerus, Champa, the strongest guy Beerus fought, Golden Freeza, SSGSS Goku, SSGSS Vegeta, Ultimate Gohan, and SS3 Gotenks (not necessarily in that order). Gohan has gotten weaker in FnF (unless they change it in the anime?), so Majin Boo would probably get in the Top 10 now below Gotenks.
Last edited by DBZGTKOSDH on Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:01 pm

1. Vados
2. Whis
3. Beerus
4. Champa
5. Unknown 5th U6 fighter
6. Golden Frieza
7. SSJB Goku
8. SSJB Vegeta
9. SSJ3 Gotenks
10. Majin Buu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Nov 25, 2015 8:45 pm

dbgtFO wrote:Granted, I too think that's what Toriyama will be going for. He likely doesn't want the classic SS design to be completely scrapped in favor of base, who knows maybe that was a contributing factor to why Gohan didn't get to finish off Buu :P
I just put a lot of stock in Elder Kaioshin's statement about SS not being the right way of doing things, but maybe his power-up got Gohan even beyond his base limit, so he wouldn't need SS like he would, if he had trained normally?
Elder Kai did say he could bring potential beyond one's limit. Maybe during his fight with Super Boo, Gohan actually didn't need to turn Super Saiyan but lost the edge by the time FnF starts. He mentions not training, so that could justify the lost power that makes SSJ necessary once again.
pacz360 wrote:So as now who are the top ten strongest characters in the series right now.
What I think, counting the manga.

Vados - 16,5 (1650)
Whis - 15 (1500)
Beerus - 10 (1000)
5th U7 Fighter - 9,5 (950)
Champa - 8,5 (850)
Golden Freeza - 8,2 (820)
SSB Goku - 7,7 (770)
SSB Vegeta - 7,6 (760)
Gohan - 0,5 (50)
SSJ3 Gotenks - 0,4 (40)

I expect U6 Arc to introduce at least 2 characters that get into the top 10.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:42 pm

Updated Tier List
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Sodhi » Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:55 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:Updated Tier List
You forgot useless tier

Dende :)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Noah » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:11 pm

LightBing wrote: Vados - 16,5 (1650)
Whis - 15 (1500)
Beerus - 10 (1000)
5th U7 Fighter - 9,5 (950)
Champa - 8,5 (850)
Golden Freeza - 8,2 (820)
SSB Goku - 7,7 (770)
SSB Vegeta - 7,6 (760)
Gohan - 0,5 (50)
SSJ3 Gotenks - 0,4 (40)

I expect U6 Arc to introduce at least 2 characters that get into the top 10.
I don't think Gohan is still above SSJ3 Gotenks in DBS.
Bullza wrote: 1. Vados
2. Whis
3. Beerus
4. Champa
5. Unknown 5th U6 fighter
6. Golden Freeza
7. SSJB Goku
8. SSJB Vegeta
9. SSJ3 Gotenks
10. Majin Buu


I agree with that list, my only objection would be that I don't think the Unknown Fighter is above the SSGSS Saiyans, but whatever...
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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by dbzfan7 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:25 pm

Sodhi wrote:
dbzfan7 wrote:Updated Tier List
You forgot useless tier

Dende :)
He fits regular human tier. I'll put him just under 18 who is worn down by kitchen duty and baby sitting.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Berserker1921 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:26 pm

LightBing wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:Granted, I too think that's what Toriyama will be going for. He likely doesn't want the classic SS design to be completely scrapped in favor of base, who knows maybe that was a contributing factor to why Gohan didn't get to finish off Buu :P
I just put a lot of stock in Elder Kaioshin's statement about SS not being the right way of doing things, but maybe his power-up got Gohan even beyond his base limit, so he wouldn't need SS like he would, if he had trained normally?
Elder Kai did say he could bring potential beyond one's limit. Maybe during his fight with Super Boo, Gohan actually didn't need to turn Super Saiyan but lost the edge by the time FnF starts. He mentions not training, so that could justify the lost power that makes SSJ necessary once again.
pacz360 wrote:So as now who are the top ten strongest characters in the series right now.
What I think, counting the manga.

Vados - 16,5 (1650)
Whis - 15 (1500)
Beerus - 10 (1000)
5th U7 Fighter - 9,5 (950)
Champa - 8,5 (850)
Golden Freeza - 8,2 (820)
SSB Goku - 7,7 (770)
SSB Vegeta - 7,6 (760)
Gohan - 0,5 (50)
SSJ3 Gotenks - 0,4 (40)

I expect U6 Arc to introduce at least 2 characters that get into the top 10.
Is vados that much stronger then whis? I mean even he said that was years ago and he has improved a lot. I agree with everything there. Except I think Vegeta and goku are equals. And vados is maybe 15,5 and whis is a 15. So she is stronger then him but not by much.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Birusu16 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:27 pm

1. Vados/Whis (it's really a toss-up at the moment for who's stronger between these two)
2. Vados/Whis
3. Beerus
4. Champa
5. Mysterious U7 fighter
6. Golden Freeza
7. Goku/Vegeta
8. Goku/Vegeta
9. Gohan
10. SSJ3 Gotenks

The mysterious fighter could range anywhere between being stronger than Golden Freeza or only being slightly above SSJG Goku. Him being above Golden Freeza is just my personal opinion of where he'll be.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LightBing » Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:43 pm

Noah wrote:I don't think Gohan is still above SSJ3 Gotenks in DBS.
I don't see any indication to change the status quo we had in the Boo Arc. We have Super changing - so far - Gohan not training from FnF.
From episode 17:
Goku not counting with Gohan for the Inter-Universe Tournament doesn't mean he's got weaker, just that he isn't interested in fighting.
Berserker1921 wrote:Is vados that much stronger then whis? I mean even he said that was years ago and he has improved a lot. I agree with everything there. Except I think Vegeta and goku are equals. And vados is maybe 15,5 and whis is a 15. So she is stronger then him but not by much.
I gave them about a 10% gap, which would provide a good fight. There's no way of knowing were they stand, Vados didn't seem the kind of character to make empty boosts.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Wed Nov 25, 2015 11:16 pm

Wait in super did they mentioned gohan lack of training or they changed it?

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