"Captain" Nappa...?

[Mr.Piccolo]

Relocated from another thread:
I always used the whole "1.5" method to understand how he defeated Nappa. The only thing that bugged me was the fact that he was using kaioken 10x against Freeza and the manga hardly showed the aura.

Another thing that confused me about kaioken was how it worked with Goku's strength. Was Goku much stronger in his base form when he first arrived in Namek or was he able to use higher levels of kaioken with ease? Was Vegeta actually stronger than Goku before he fought Freeza..?
-Rick

[wannywan]

I believe he was actually stronger at base level when he arrived on Namek compared to beforehand.

Mostly because of the intense near death/senzu bean training Goku did in his spaceship on the way there.

[Pieter]

Relocated from another thread:
I always used the whole "1.5" method to understand how he defeated Nappa. The only thing that bugged me was the fact that he was using kaioken 10x against Freeza and the manga hardly showed the aura.

Another thing that confused me about kaioken was how it worked with Goku's strength. Was Goku much stronger in his base form when he first arrived in Namek or was he able to use higher levels of kaioken with ease? Was Vegeta actually stronger than Goku before he fought Freeza..?
-Rick

Goku learned to use short bursts of Kaioken, so fast it wasn't visible for the eye. Vegeta sees Goku perform this against Jeice and Burter. Here's what he says in the Anime: "That Kakarotto... His Battle power increases tremendously only for a split second during the attack, probably to avoid wasting energy'.

And yes Goku was much stronger in his base form. He trained with 100G to increase his base form power. He also recovered from the Vegeta fight on earth and recovered from serious injuries during his gravity training. He even says that now that he became stronger he will be able to use a higher level of kaioken.

As for your question: Goku was stronger than Vegeta during the fight with Jeice and Burter. Vegeta gained a big powerup after the senzu bean but he was still amazed by Goku's power. However, Goku uses Kaioken and that's probably what amazes him. After this they both reach near death twice, but Vegeta does so with cheating (we don't know how well this worked). We don't know who has the highest baseform, but with Kaioken Goku is defenitely stronger than Vegeta as seen in their Frieza fights.

I never got how Goku's base form was at 3.000.000 though (according to the daizenshuu), and before recovering as 90,000. The numbers make sense but that's 33 times stronger! If that would have happened with Vegeta after the Senzu bean he would have a powerlevel of 1.000.000. Strong enough to beat the first two forms of Frieza. However, he was about 530,000 (he was close with Frieza) which is about 18 times stronger. That's also a major power-up compared to old ones. The only explanation I can give is that they reached a new level close to being a super saiyan.

[mAcChaos]

I don't think it was the Kaio Ken. Why couldn't he have just raised his power normally a sharp amount? There was no red aura, after all, and Vegeta was familiar with Kaio Ken so he'd know if he was using it.

[Pieter]

I don't think it was the Kaio Ken. Why couldn't he have just raised his power normally a sharp amount? There was no red aura, after all, and Vegeta was familiar with Kaio Ken so he'd know if he was using it.

It could be Kaioken, because during the Frieza fight we also don't see the red aura (until king kai explains him using kaioken). It could not be kaioken as well. The scouters kept indicating 5000, but that doesn't explain much other then him keeping his power surpressed most of the time.

[Duo]

I don't think it was the Kaio Ken. Why couldn't he have just raised his power normally a sharp amount? There was no red aura, after all, and Vegeta was familiar with Kaio Ken so he'd know if he was using it.

It could be Kaioken, because during the Freeza fight we also don't see the red aura (until king kai explains him using kaioken). It could not be kaioken as well. The scouters kept indicating 5000, but that doesn't explain much other then him keeping his power surpressed most of the time.

Not really. It's just that Goku only uses Kaio-ken x10 for one charge and gets smacked down big time right away. It's easy to spot in the Manga. Not sure about the Anime (only saw it once, ages ago).

It is kind've insane that Goku went from 90,000 to 3 million plus in one recovery, but heck, even he was freaked out by it. Remember when he emerges? He's in awe at himself. You could say it was his bodies final push towards meeting the physical requirement to become Super Saiyan. All that was left was the rage. Also, you could use the argument that it was the originally intended end of the series, so logic went out the window. The Saiyan powerups varied so spastically throughout that arc that there isn't any sense to call 33x too insane either.

But yeah, most of Goku's fight with Freeza he goes without Kaio-ken. "Invisible" Kaio-kens are just a fan myth.

[BROLEROT]

I thought that Goku was around 180,000 when he fought ginyu .I also thought Goku was around 300,000 when he recovered and that he reached 3,000,000 plus using Kaiokenx10,20. I haven't watched that saga in a long time though.

[SylentEcho]

We may never know if he was really the commander and chief of the Saiya-Jin army. IMO he wasnt because he was too impulsive and lost his temper very easily and couldnt make a great leader.

What we do know is that he was a very important fighter because he was Prince Vegeta's bodyguard so there is still a possibiliy that he was commander.

[Pieter]

But yeah, most of Goku's fight with Freeza he goes without Kaio-ken. "Invisible" Kaio-kens are just a fan myth.

I believe I've only heard the dub on this one, but didn't King Kai state that Goku was using the Kaioken all the time? After Yamcha or Tien said he still had Kaioken as his trump card.

I thought that Goku was around 180,000 when he fought ginyu .I also thought Goku was around 300,000 when he recovered and that he reached 3,000,000 plus using Kaiokenx10,20. I haven't watched that saga in a long time though.

Goku did reach 180,000 however he used Kaioken for this. There was a huge red aura. His base power was about 90,000. That's how Ginyu estimated it and how it's in the Daizenshuu.

[Maphisto86]

We may never know if he was really the commander and chief of the Saiya-Jin army. IMO he wasnt because he was too impulsive and lost his temper very easily and couldnt make a great leader.

What we do know is that he was a very important fighter because he was Prince Vegeta's bodyguard so there is still a possibiliy that he was commander.

I totally agree with what your saying. Nappa probably wasen't exactly "leadership material" considering his bloodthirsty, brash and tempermental personality. Then again "captain of the saiyan army" does not mean he was it's commander and chief (a role I would imagine the king to have). However a "captain" in reality is an officer rank so it is possible that Nappa was an "officer" or at least the equivalent of an NCO simply because he was a powerful elite.

[Duo]

But yeah, most of Goku's fight with Freeza he goes without Kaio-ken. "Invisible" Kaio-kens are just a fan myth.

I believe I've only heard the dub on this one, but didn't King Kai state that Goku was using the Kaioken all the time? After Yamcha or Tenshinhan said he still had Kaioken as his trump card.

What he said is that Goku had already tried the Kaio-ken x10. And has I explained, Goku burst into it once only to be smacked down right away. Shorty after we get the Lord of Worlds comment on it. Prior to that Goku had used normal Kaio-ken (aka Kaio-ken x2) twice before Freeza had started using 50% of his full power and it gave him a surprise on Freeza allowing him to get a momentary upper hand, but the vast majority of the time he fought without Kaio-ken. This also means that the dubline saying Freeza was only using 1% of his power wasn't far off. 2.5% is more likely, but still not far off.

I have overanalyzed this to death, I know.

[mAcChaos]

Only Kaioken x 2, against Freeza? Sheesh.

[Duo]

Only Kaioken x 2, against Freeza? Sheesh.

Well, they were just playing around til' Freeza used 50%. Great fight, but just a warm up.

[Mr.Piccolo]

But yeah, most of Goku's fight with Freeza he goes without Kaio-ken. "Invisible" Kaio-kens are just a fan myth.

I believe I've only heard the dub on this one, but didn't King Kai state that Goku was using the Kaioken all the time? After Yamcha or Tenshinhan said he still had Kaioken as his trump card.

Just the person I wanted to quote. In the manga, the fact that Goku is(was) using kaioken x10 was a surprise seeing how he had no aura except for when they chose to fight on the ground and the when Goku uses kaioken x20. Why is that? As for Goku's prior attempts on kaioken, I don't know if he used it. I mean when he used it on Earth, it was clearly visible against Nappa and Vegeta. Did he use it on any members in the Ginyu Force besides, well, Ginyu (maybe Burter)?
-Rick

[Duo]

But yeah, most of Goku's fight with Freeza he goes without Kaio-ken. "Invisible" Kaio-kens are just a fan myth.

I believe I've only heard the dub on this one, but didn't King Kai state that Goku was using the Kaioken all the time? After Yamcha or Tenshinhan said he still had Kaioken as his trump card.

Just the person I wanted to quote. In the manga, the fact that Goku is(was) using kaioken x10 was a surprise seeing how he had no aura except for when they chose to fight on the ground and the when Goku uses kaioken x20. Why is that? As for Goku's prior attempts on kaioken, I don't know if he used it. I mean when he used it on Earth, it was clearly visible against Nappa and Vegeta. Did he use it on any members in the Ginyu Force besides, well, Ginyu (maybe Burter)?
-Rick

It was visible against Freeza. He used it four times, it just wasn't dragged out. It rarely is. Kaio-ken is meant to be used in bursts. It wouldn't make sense for him to be using it the whole time - it contradicts the origin of the technique itself.

He uses it 2 times before Freeza goes to 50%, during their "hand to feet" round. Goku starts off with a charge in Kaio-ken but Freeza blocks it because Goku charges from far away. A moment later he isn't using Kaio-ken anymore and they fight for a while as is, then Goku gets knocked down, uses Kaio-ken, and catches Freeza completely off guard and whirls him into a rock formation. A moment later Freeza charges back out and they fight some more, no more Kaio-ken for a while. Both times the technique wasn't stated but clearly fvisible. I don't know if the Anime provided the proper red aura or not, but in the Manga it is most clearly the Kaio-ken.

After Freeza goes 50%, we see Goku getting thrashed and he gets behind Freeza and does the Kaio-ken again, which we later find out to be the Kaio-ken by tenfold. As soon as he uses it he gets kicked in the face and brought to his knees. It isn't seen again. We get the x20 soon after but no one missed that

The only time he used it against a Ginyu force member was Ginyu. His base power was 90,000 and that is more than enough bursting power to crush all the others.

[Rocketman]

Duo, that seems really nonsensical for Goku's power to be jumping between (EXAMPLE ONLY) 300,000 and 3,000,000 throughout the fight and not really changing how well he does.

And then there's still the part where a non-blocking, apparently non-Kaioken-using Goku takes a 50% Freeza elbow to the face and barely even scoots back.

[LegendarySSJ7]

Duo, that seems really nonsensical for Goku's power to be jumping between (EXAMPLE ONLY) 300,000 and 3,000,000 throughout the fight and not really changing how well he does.

And then there's still the part where a non-blocking, apparently non-Kaioken-using Goku takes a 50% Freeza elbow to the face and barely even scoots back.

Scrutinize closer on page 163 of Volume 26 / 10. Freeza puts such little effort into 'elbow to the face' in question as he thrusted his elbow forward and Goku staggered back that it makes it a wonder if he was even anyplace near awake as he set his gaze on the ground stretched out before until abruptly continuing the 50% bout. Without such lucid interest, as if he was daydreaming nonwithstanding. It's actually just about as much effort as Goku put into sucker-punching Jheese when he comments they leave themselves wide open. He draws blood just the same. Both combatants with around a 2x gap (Goku acccessing Kaio-ken x10). The only thing Freeza was doing was pulling his punches from instantly dealing away with Goku, as by his own admission (page 177, Volume 26 / 10): "Don't worry. I won't kill you just like that. That would be terribly unsatisfying." Not lengths away from how SSj2 Gohan pulled his punches from causing Complete Cell (at full power) to instantly explode in a bloody mess as the resulting effects were with Cell's Juniors. Not necessarily solely the capacities of the combatants.

But I digress. I don't mean to backmoderate, but... I'm a bit addled to no end as to how this thread went from Captain Nappa to Goku and the Kaio-ken, and the widely and deeply-held hundred millions power level debate... which is an altercation we best not relapse into. If we feel otherwise, it's best left unsaid. So I implore we rerail said thread, if that sums up the parameters of this post.