Vegeta vs Goku: Who was the true winner?

[Conan the SSJ]

[edit: How did you bother to type all that out? ]

You don't wanna know. Long story short, ear-plugs, and a 2-liter of ice-tea. *Conan puts his fingers in ice*

[Lavender Saiyan]

Good point. Plus, Goku was the first person to really humiliate him that we know of. Remember, Vegeta was forced to take on the Oozaru form, a form made for wiping out large large masses of strong races. Not one mere person. Plus Vegeta also realizes, that Goku's lack of a tail gave him the Oozaru advantage. In their Base form fight, Goku came out the winner.

I disagree. Had they continued to fight at base, Vegeta would have won. Kaioken x4 had hurt Goku's body badly, I doubt he could've used Kaioken again for any real length of time, and without the Kaioken, Vegeta is still his better.

I don't think so, Vegeta was pretty wiped out after facing the Kamehameha. Remember, Goku was able to continue dodging & using the first Kaio-Ken against Oozaru Vegeta & fire some Ki for a while. He coulda continued fighting. Plus if all else failed, he could have used the Solar Flare & done a Spirit Bomb. It probably would have worked better against Base Vegeta, I doubt he'd suprise Goku with a Eraser Gun.

[Duo]

Good point. Plus, Goku was the first person to really humiliate him that we know of. Remember, Vegeta was forced to take on the Oozaru form, a form made for wiping out large large masses of strong races. Not one mere person. Plus Vegeta also realizes, that Goku's lack of a tail gave him the Oozaru advantage. In their Base form fight, Goku came out the winner.

I disagree. Had they continued to fight at base, Vegeta would have won. Kaioken x4 had hurt Goku's body badly, I doubt he could've used Kaioken again for any real length of time, and without the Kaioken, Vegeta is still his better.

I don't think so, Vegeta was pretty wiped out after facing the Kamehameha. Remember, Goku was able to continue dodging & using the first Kaio-Ken against Oozaru Vegeta & fire some Ki for a while. He coulda continued fighting. Plus if all else failed, he could have used the Solar Flare & done a Spirit Bomb. It probably would have worked better against Base Vegeta, I doubt he'd suprise Goku with a Eraser Gun.

Goku himself said he stood little chance against Vegeta after the Kamehameha because his body was so thrashed. Vegeta would have probably won without the Great Ape transformation. Goku said so.

[Lavender Saiyan]

Like I said, Spirit Bomb if all else fails. But heck, Goku's Ki blast blew out Oozaru Vegeta's eye. He could have damaged Base Vegeta.

[GI_Judd2287]

It's hard to determine who the definite winner is, but here's my two cents. Vegeta beat Goku in the first fight. He had to make a retreat because Krillin and Gohan showed up. He had to go Oozaru, but it still counts.

In the second fight, Vegeta was significantly under powered, but the fact that Goku was holding back doesn't mean anything. In The Dark Knight Returns, Superman held back against Batman and look who wound up winning? In the end, Vegeta knocked out Goku, so he wins.

While I'm not a Vegeta fan (in fact, I dislike him) I think he beat Goku in both of their major battles.

[the_abberration]

Like I said, Spirit Bomb if all else fails. But heck, Goku's Ki blast blew out Oozaru Vegeta's eye. He could have damaged Base Vegeta.

Uhh...Didn't Vegeta (IIRC) take the full force of the Genki Dama and it only pissed him off?

[KinoFourpaws]

(Lots and lots and lots of stuff)

*stares openmouthed at all the text*

Eh--eh-- *babbles*

... OKAY! Skipping over that insanely long post by our friend Conan here for now... sorry, man! >____>;;

Well, I see valid points supporting both sides of the argument as far as the first fight goes, though I have to (begrudgingly) admit that in terms of physical strength and skill, Vejita did have Goku bested at that point in time. However, Goku more than managed to hold his own for quite a good while, and I think the very fact that he was actually able to compete with Vejita won him a victory in another way--that is, psychologically. He was able to actually prove wrong Vejita's belief that there would always be a tremendous gap between their powers because of Vejita's status as an elite. That kind of damage to one's pride can be FAR more grievous an offense to receive than any physical wound could be.

I have to debate the ideas that the second match was won by Vejita or that it was a draw, though. If I recall correctly, Vejita cheated! And I don't mean he did so by striking Goku unconscious while he wasn't looking. What I mean is, he drew on someone else's help (Babidi's) for their one-on-one fight, while Goku was fighting with just his own power and no one else's. Without that Majin powerup, Vejita really couldn't have done squat against Goku, and this isn't even taking into consideration Goku's power as an SSJ3.

Maybe, technically, their fight in the latter half of the series was a draw, but as far as I'm concerned, it wasn't a fair one. Not like Vejita's the kind of person to actually care about what's fair or what's not, though... in fact, that may have been what encouraged him to accept Babidi's influence, seeing as how at the level he was without it, he knew he couldn't keep up with Goku if he tried to be fair. So yeah, he cheated, and willingly so. So blah. D:

Plus if all else failed, he could have used the Solar Flare & done a Spirit Bomb. It probably would have worked better against Base Vegeta, I doubt he'd suprise Goku with a Eraser Gun.

Well, actually, he did try that. It didn't work. D:

[ChaotixXero]

He did take one and he kept fighting, the Genki Dama couldn't have defeated him.

Fight 1: Vegeta definitely wins. Goku damages himself whenever he uses Kaioken, he couldn't continue the fight if it dragged on. Vegeta used Oozaru to dispose of him without resistance because he was pissed off, remember how he took the time to crush him instead of quickly blowing him up or something? In the end his tail go cut by Yajirobe but Vegeta was still the one standing after Goku was half-dead, Yajirobe knocked out, Gohan knocked out, and Kuririn...well I guess he was okay compared to the others. I still think Vegeta won the battle but still lost his pride If someone was in a fight and win the fight but ended up braking their arm, they still won but end up injured. Vegeta left with injured pride. After this, Vegeta basically wants to win without suffering the same injury.

Fight 2: A draw. No excuses. Goku didn't use SSJ3 because he couldn't, the curcumstances didn't allow him and the fact that he didn't want to. Even if Boo and his limit weren't a factor, I don't think he still would have used it. So lets say that Boo and his limit didn't matter, and he wouldn't have used it, and Vegeta manages to beat Goku somehow dispite the fact that Goku still had his SSJ3. Goku would still lose because he...lost. If someone is in a...Karate match and decides not to use their arms and end up losing. It's their fault. No one handed Goku a rulebook saying he couldn't fight using his other form.

[KinoFourpaws]

Fight 2: A draw. No excuses. Goku didn't use SSJ3 because he couldn't, the curcumstances didn't allow him and the fact that he didn't want to. Even if Boo and his limit weren't a factor, I don't think he still would have used it. So lets say that Boo and his limit didn't matter, and he wouldn't have used it, and Vegeta manages to beat Goku somehow dispite the fact that Goku still had his SSJ3. Goku would still lose because he...lost. If someone is in a...Karate match and decides not to use their arms and end up losing. It's their fault. No one handed Goku a rulebook saying he couldn't fight using his other form.

Well, if you think about it, Goku was testing himself by holding back his maximum power. If he really did lose during that fight, there's at least the sense that he did so because he was actually challenging himself. Vejita, however, in a sense took the easy way out with the Majin powerup. So even if he did win, like you (seem to) say he did, there was very little worth to be gained in the victory. It's like passing an exam by looking at all the answers while you're doing it--it's an empty feat; you didn't actually do anything to be proud of.

I certainly don't see how a victory in this fight would really satisfy Vejita anyway, especially considering that. If this was a victory, it wasn't the kind of victory he really wanted. :/

[ChaotixXero]

No, I'm saying that it was a draw and that Goku holding back SSJ3 doesn't mean that he automatically wins.

[KinoFourpaws]

No, I'm saying that it was a draw and that Goku holding back SSJ3 doesn't mean that he automatically wins.

Ahh, okay. Yeah, I guess it matters more what you actually DID do in a fight to win as opposed to what you COULD have done. o_O;

I still stand by the notion that Goku was challenging himself by doing what he did, though. :3

[Rocketman]

I certainly don't see how a victory in this fight would really satisfy Vejita anyway, especially considering that. If this was a victory, it wasn't the kind of victory he really wanted. :/

I think he wanted Goku to fight him. Goku would have to go back to the afterlife later and would never be able to come back. Also, even if they did deal with Buu, any fight at the World Tournament would nessessarily be limited.

So, go evil. Force Kakarot to fight with everything he has.

[KinoFourpaws]

I certainly don't see how a victory in this fight would really satisfy Vejita anyway, especially considering that. If this was a victory, it wasn't the kind of victory he really wanted. :/

I think he wanted Goku to fight him. Goku would have to go back to the afterlife later and would never be able to come back. Also, even if they did deal with Buu, any fight at the World Tournament would nessessarily be limited.

So, go evil. Force Kakarot to fight with everything he has.

Yeah, but still, after all that fuss he went through to be able to beat him by himself? :<

[Lavender Saiyan]

Like I said, Spirit Bomb if all else fails. But heck, Goku's Ki blast blew out Oozaru Vegeta's eye. He could have damaged Base Vegeta.

Uhh...Didn't Vegeta (IIRC) take the full force of the Genki Dama and it only pissed him off?

That was a much weakened Spirit Bomb

[Rocketman]

Yeah, but still, after all that fuss he went through to be able to beat him by himself? :<

Goku got Gohan, Krillin and Yajirobe in the first round.

Vegeta got Majin'd in the second.

[the_abberration]

Like I said, Spirit Bomb if all else fails. But heck, Goku's Ki blast blew out Oozaru Vegeta's eye. He could have damaged Base Vegeta.

Uhh...Didn't Vegeta (IIRC) take the full force of the Genki Dama and it only pissed him off?

That was a much weakened Spirit Bomb

I don't think so (unless you are comparing it to later versions). At that point in time, it would have been the same strength regardless. The power of the Genka Dama is not Goku's direct power per se, but the chi of the living things around him. He would only need the strength to form it.

Also, I believe Kuririn, Kaio-sama, and Vegeta all remarked on how strong it was as well.

[Tyro]

Goku stated that a lot of the power already in the Genki Dama escaped when he was about to use it, but was halted by Great Ape Vegeta's mouth blast.

[Mr.Piccolo]

Goku told *deep breath* Kuririn that the spirit bomb lost a lot of energy when (Oozaru) Vegeta attacked him.
-Rick

[Lavender Saiyan]

Goku stated that a lot of the power already in the Genki Dama escaped when he was about to use it, but was halted by Great Ape Vegeta's mouth blast.

So like I said, if Vegeta was in base that wouldn't have happened.

[the_abberration]

Goku stated that a lot of the power already in the Genki Dama escaped when he was about to use it, but was halted by Great Ape Vegeta's mouth blast.

Goku told *deep breath* Kuririn that the spirit bomb lost a lot of energy when (Oozaru) Vegeta attacked him.
-Rick

Goku: Most of it got away...But I think there's enough to beat him...while he's weak.

Most..not a lot.

Keep in mind..This was after Vegeta used a lot of his power to create a substitute moon to become OOzaru and had his tail sliced off by Yajirobe. So he would have been weaker than before (when Goku first tried to use the Genki Dama) as well.

So like I said, if Vegeta was in base that wouldn't have happened.

Goku (when Vegeta became OOzaru): H-his power went down as soon as he made that weird light...!!!

Keep in mind the second time Goku used a slightly weaker Genki Dama agianst an even weaker Vegeta in base form. Now, if Vegeta had not used the energy to become OOzaru he would have been stronger in his base form. That would have made a difference in relation to the energy Goku would have gained during the first attempt as per your theory.

Kuririn: The-the-the "chi" in this...!! It's unbelieveable....!!

Maybe not as strong as Goku might have gotten it earlier but not that weak either.

Gohan (while fighting Vegeta meaning he would be using up even more strength: Dad weakened him...! B-but he's still so strong....

Okay Gohan is a newbie at this point, but Vegeta had just fought Goku at Kaio-ken x 4 (and got stuck on his Kamehameha wave), used energy to turn OOzrau, got blasted in the eye, lost his tail, and now has to fight Kakkoroto's son.

And on top of that...here comes the Genki Dama.

Yajirobe: Ooo, that's a lotta "chi" ...!! That boy's up to something...!!

Again, Goku lost most, not a lot.

Vegeta gets hit by the Genki Dama, flies into the air, and hits the ground hard.

Vegeta: You've given me quite a beating...I thought you had me on that last one.

Kaio-sama: H..how can this be...?! He took the energy ball full force...

Vegeta: Oh you've taken a lot out of me. But I have enough strength left to finish you.

While I think the Genki Dama is very powerful, Vegeta was a much stronger opponent than everyone expected. I mean even after all that, he took a sword slash to the back, fought Gohan in his Oozaru form, and had him fall on top of him in that form. Yet he still was able to move around enough to retreat.

Also keep in mind that Gohan was to be the hero of DBZ, which is why his blow was the one to make Vegeta retreat. The intention was probrably that this guy Vegeta stood up to Goku and his stongest move (the Genki Dama), he must be amazing. With Gohan making the save at the end, the fans would begin to focus on his character.

However, I think this backfired because of the fight between Goku and Vegeta, and only made Goku that much more popular with the fans.