Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by baneofdemon22 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 8:12 am

I think it's a bit harsh to just relegate Vegeta to the "emo" title. How many of us have wasted time whining about an author's decision in a children's cartoon from over a decade ago? Vegeta would probably give us the "man-baby" or "loser" title. Everyone's got their flaws. Vegeta had been slaughtering people his whole life and he was always praised for it. He reveled in hate and was proud of it. It's extremely difficult to change such a mindset. Vegeta is an extremely prideful warrior, so his weakness in judgement seemed realistic to me.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ABED » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:16 pm

andrewtuell1991 wrote:He's nothing more than a plot device to wake up the main villain of the arc. That's all he and the 2nd fight with Goku are, which is why the fight is thankfully so short in the manga.
That's not fair at all. He's not a plot device. He's one of the more interesting characters in the show. He gets the plot going, but it's all in character for him. Characters only become mere plot devices when they aren't acting in character or aren't fleshed out.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Ddd » Wed Dec 02, 2015 5:26 pm

He's terrible an awful plot device that didn't need to happen

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by SaiyanZ » Wed Dec 02, 2015 11:56 pm

Vegeta isn't particularly interesting imo, having a more fleshed out past/childhood like Goku or Gohan is the only thing I find "interesting" about him now since it hasn't been explored too much. I say that with him as my 2nd favorite character in the series but Goku and Piccolo are more interesting to me, with Goku's selfishness and Piccolo's quote of cursing fate to Gohan during the Saiyan arc.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:21 am

Very different opinions here, and they have me really considering mine. I like the concept, but the execution really does leave Toriyama looking as if he skipped a step in his story and Vegeta looking like a plot device.

I've always had a problem with Toriyama's telling us to take his word for Vegeta's settling down. We see very small bits and pieces of it; an episode of his trying to figure out how to relate Trunks, his being more relaxed at the 28th tournament. But its just too fast for me. He tells us he eventually enjoyed the family life, but we haven't seen him struggle with it, we haven't seen him tell himself that for all the embarrassment it will bring him that this is the right thing to do, and make an inevitably clumsy effort. You need something like Episode 2 of Super, at the very least, before you can take Vegeta down the violent reactionary path like that. The whole thing is played far too seriously to just drop on us. His desperation to fight Goku for the last time in his mortal life is fine trigger, but triggers need something to ignite.

And Goku. Wow, the things that ordeal brought out in Goku. The disbelieving betrayal. Not an emotion you associate with him. Too bad Goku and Vegeta's relationship is astoundingly undercooked. Had Piccolo let himself go under- not to stir that old hypothetical- it would have been spot-on. But Vegeta? What had Vegeta done to earn Goku's confidence?
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by kei17 » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:37 am

A bit off-topic, but I don't like calling him "Majin Vegeta" because he's not Majin. 魔人 (majin, demon/mystical man) is the title specifically for Buu, which generally refers to a human-shaped being with supernatural, and often evil powers or the satanic origin. It's not a word that's automatically added to the name of those who are brainwashed by Babidi. In fact, Spopovich, Yamu, and the other henchmen are not called Majin. My guess is that the "M" symbol is misleading that people assume that it stands for "Majin," but it doesn't.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Jackal puFF » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:43 am

Yeah I never really liked calling him majin either cause it never made sense to me.. Anyways I wasn't fond of Vegeta at this state.. Didn't like the fight with Goku... But I guess it was cool when he tried to kill Buu..

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Wezenheim » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:55 am

kei17 wrote:A bit off-topic, but I don't like calling him "Majin Vegeta" because he's not Majin. 魔人 (majin, demon/mystical man) is the title specifically for Buu, which generally refers to a human-shaped being with supernatural, and often evil powers or the satanic origin. It's not a word that's automatically added to the name of those who are brainwashed by Babidi. In fact, Spopovich, Yamu, and the other henchmen are not called Majin. My guess is that the "M" symbol is misleading that people assume that it stands for "Majin," but it doesn't.
Ah so it's more of a fan name then. I figured that but it's kind of what I've just rolled with for a while. Habits and all that. Thanks for the info.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Ddd » Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:28 am

If picolo was the one that got that boost I would of actually felt exited about it because goku/gohan have a real relationship with picolo but vegeta is just a plot device since the cell saga quite honestly he sucks ass in comparison to the incredible character that he was during the
Saiyan/namek saga,to be completely honest one of the main reasons I had to abandon the db community was the hole vegeta is going to kill freeza hype train he went from being my favorite character on namek to my least favorite character in the cell and boo arc(I hate how hyped up vegeta is when he became such a terrible character)

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:13 am

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:I've always had a problem with Toriyama's telling us to take his word for Vegeta's settling down. We see very small bits and pieces of it; an episode of his trying to figure out how to relate Trunks, his being more relaxed at the 28th tournament. But its just too fast for me. He tells us he eventually enjoyed the family life, but we haven't seen him struggle with it, we haven't seen him tell himself that for all the embarrassment it will bring him that this is the right thing to do, and make an inevitably clumsy effort. You need something like Episode 2 of Super, at the very least, before you can take Vegeta down the violent reactionary path like that. The whole thing is played far too seriously to just drop on us. His desperation to fight Goku for the last time in his mortal life is fine trigger, but triggers need something to ignite.

And Goku. Wow, the things that ordeal brought out in Goku. The disbelieving betrayal. Not an emotion you associate with him. Too bad Goku and Vegeta's relationship is astoundingly undercooked. Had Piccolo let himself go under- not to stir that old hypothetical- it would have been spot-on. But Vegeta? What had Vegeta done to earn Goku's confidence?
After Goku's death, Vegeta explicitly lacked the desire to fight. What other choice would he make besides settling down? The right thing to do? Right and wrong had nothing to do with it.
He's terrible an awful plot device that didn't need to happen
How is he a plot device?
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Vynak » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:19 am

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote: I've always had a problem with Toriyama's telling us to take his word for Vegeta's settling down. We see very small bits and pieces of it; an episode of his trying to figure out how to relate Trunks, his being more relaxed at the 28th tournament. But its just too fast for me. He tells us he eventually enjoyed the family life, but we haven't seen him struggle with it, we haven't seen him tell himself that for all the embarrassment it will bring him that this is the right thing to do, and make an inevitably clumsy effort. You need something like Episode 2 of Super, at the very least, before you can take Vegeta down the violent reactionary path like that. The whole thing is played far too seriously to just drop on us. His desperation to fight Goku for the last time in his mortal life is fine trigger, but triggers need something to ignite.

And Goku. Wow, the things that ordeal brought out in Goku. The disbelieving betrayal. Not an emotion you associate with him. Too bad Goku and Vegeta's relationship is astoundingly undercooked. Had Piccolo let himself go under- not to stir that old hypothetical- it would have been spot-on. But Vegeta? What had Vegeta done to earn Goku's confidence?
I agree, I've always wondered why Goku had such confidence in Vegeta during the majin fight considering he was dead the last several years. I guess he just assumed (like I do I guess) that the fact Vegeta chose to stay on earth peacefully the last several years meant something that changed. 7 years is a long time to stay with the same people and not develop some attachments. It's clear Vegeta had mellowed somewhat when we see him again in the buu saga and Trunks seemed to idolize him quite a bit. There's a definite contrast with how Trunks speaks of his dad than how Goten speaks of Goku (who he's never known). I always took that to mean while Vegeta's bonding attempts might not have been shown and were probably clumsy/awkward, they were likely present.

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:13 pm

ABED wrote:Vegeta explicitly lacked the desire to fight. What other choice would he make besides settling down? The right thing to do? Right and wrong had nothing to do with it.
Piccolo became a hermit because putting down his proverbial sword left him with nothing else do. Vegeta's doing what he did was not nearly so given, at least to him, seeing as he tries to doll it up as a mistake on his part, something he committed to that in his newfound rage he wished he hadn't. Given how isolated Vegeta is as an individual, that his family life likely often boiled down to his being in his new family's company with barely a word in, that is something we could accept as the product of a time jump so long as we see more episodes (situations, not TV episodes) to cement it in the present. But when Vegeta descends to shock-and-awe murder to prove a petty point with a violent abandon he hasn't shown in ten years, just as we're getting accustomed to the idea? "What do you mean you tried to be a family man, Vegeta? You blew up dozens of people to coerce me into fighting you!" I do not think we had the chance to "buy" the reformed Vegeta before Toriyama shattered it with the narrative baseball bat.

Having said that, I think I was a mite hard on Goku. Even if he hadn't seen Vegeta for seven years, he can still piece together that for Vegeta to rebel against his new life like this his affections had to be genuine. All he can do is keep appealing to that, to bring those emotions back to the front of his. He never downplays Vegeta's killing, again, he's uncharacteristically cold the whole time, but Vegeta's so far gone that beyond giving him what he wants it is all he can do.
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Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
Just like Dragon Ball since Chapter #4.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Thu Dec 03, 2015 2:57 pm

BlazingFiddlesticks wrote:Very different opinions here, and they have me really considering mine. I like the concept, but the execution really does leave Toriyama looking as if he skipped a step in his story and Vegeta looking like a plot device.

I've always had a problem with Toriyama's telling us to take his word for Vegeta's settling down. We see very small bits and pieces of it; an episode of his trying to figure out how to relate Trunks, his being more relaxed at the 28th tournament. But its just too fast for me. He tells us he eventually enjoyed the family life, but we haven't seen him struggle with it, we haven't seen him tell himself that for all the embarrassment it will bring him that this is the right thing to do, and make an inevitably clumsy effort. You need something like Episode 2 of Super, at the very least, before you can take Vegeta down the violent reactionary path like that. The whole thing is played far too seriously to just drop on us. His desperation to fight Goku for the last time in his mortal life is fine trigger, but triggers need something to ignite.

And Goku. Wow, the things that ordeal brought out in Goku. The disbelieving betrayal. Not an emotion you associate with him. Too bad Goku and Vegeta's relationship is astoundingly undercooked. Had Piccolo let himself go under- not to stir that old hypothetical- it would have been spot-on. But Vegeta? What had Vegeta done to earn Goku's confidence?

I love Vegeta,but he kinda is a plot device for Toriyama.

1. editor hates 19,20. Sicks vegeta after him.

2. Editor hates semi perfect cell- sicks vegeta after him.


I personally think majin vegeta is weaker then ssj2 the majin spell doesn't add much power as you see from yamu and spopovich. And resisting the spell made vegeta veiny unlike dabura and his body use up energy and be not at peak because the spell and not being a tool like dabura. So while he gets a boost of like 7 for his power level,he loses like 20% of his power thanks top the spell,and 20% of vegeta's power>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>the majin boost.
I see it as he just wanted to LOOK evil so goku wouldn't hold back against him and so he'd be ruthless again...even though its the nicest we've ever seen in him, I guess he kinda concurred his evil side by defying Babidi. If he just wanted to kil goku he'd sneak attack him. He wants to be legitimately stronger then Goku because his pride.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by ABED » Thu Dec 03, 2015 3:34 pm

BlazingFiddlesticks,

Vegeta and Piccolo are two very different characters. Piccolo Daimao was evil incarnate. He was evil for the sake of it. Vegeta is a power luster. They have different reasons for their actions so they will have different responses.

But when Vegeta descends to shock-and-awe murder to prove a petty point with a violent abandon he hasn't shown in ten years, just as we're getting accustomed to the idea?
Yes, because it isn't new. The thing that was driving him for so long was Goku. When he thought his greatest rival was dead and gone, then he was empty. When Goku comes back, something he never thought would happen, even then he was just going to fight in a tournament. It was only after he saw a means of gaining strength through Babidi that it even crossed his mind. Even as domesticated as he became, that side of him is still there, though not as strong as it once was. It was his last ditch effort, but he just not the same as he was years ago. He's still evil, but now he has things he cares about, even if he is twisted.

I get your point and i respect and might even agree with parts of it, but for the most part I think Vegeta's reasons make sense.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by BlazingFiddlesticks » Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:51 pm

ABED wrote:Vegeta and Piccolo are two very different characters.
Oh, absolutely. The phrasing "Well what else was Vegeta supposed to do?" just suggest to me that his doing what he did was foregone in the way Piccolo's was. While it was, really, it was no question the easiest place to put him, Vegeta acts like a made deliberate choice that he's now going back on.

As embarrassed as I am at myself for all that bloviating, I guess I just can't reconcile those things. Or at the very least I cannot call Vegeta a "resolved" character at the end of the series proper the way he is often cast. The new movies being another story entirely.
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Pannaliciour wrote:Reading all the comments and interviews, my conclusion is: nobody knows what the hell is going on.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by precita » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:19 am

Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta was the rematch we all wanted since the Saiyan saga. It had no real conclusion since Vegeta knocks out Goku when he doesn't expect it to fight Buu (and this is also on top of the fact that Goku was holding back because he could have gone SSJ3 but didn't), but it was the only rematch they had in the entire series.

Unless I'm forgetting something, this was the last time Goku and Vegeta ever fought each other to date, right?

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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:25 am

precita wrote:Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta was the rematch we all wanted since the Saiyan saga. It had no real conclusion since Vegeta knocks out Goku when he doesn't expect it to fight Buu (and this is also on top of the fact that Goku was holding back because he could have gone SSJ3 but didn't), but it was the only rematch they had in the entire series.

Unless I'm forgetting something, this was the last time Goku and Vegeta ever fought each other to date, right?

(spoiler alert)




Dragonball super. Also vegeta had ssj2 which is above goku ussj3. majin spell weakened him a LOT.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Avery » Fri Dec 04, 2015 3:35 am

LSSJGODSSJ4Gogeta wrote: Also vegeta had ssj2 which is above goku ussj3. majin spell weakened him a LOT.
...what? :wtf: are you serious? He purposely let himself get possessed because of the power boost that comes with the spell (and to get rid of his feelings, which failed anyways).

And we all know that SSJ3 is much stronger.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Kid Buu » Fri Dec 04, 2015 7:45 am

I like his development but it often seems inconsistent. Like saying he'll never fight again after the Cell Games, but showing no signs of retirement when we see him again.

Still, I like his character arc in the Buu arc, where he realizes no matter how hard he tries he wont be the best. That's really refreshing for a Shonen.
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Re: Thoughts on Majin Vegeta

Post by Gaffer Tape » Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:13 am

precita wrote:Goku Vs. Majin Vegeta was the rematch we all wanted since the Saiyan saga.
I hear people say this a lot, but I never had any yearning desire for a rematch between them. Their first fight was great and could never really be topped anyway, and the pitiful rematch we got certainly didn't.
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